SolitaryWalker
Tenured roisterer
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2007
- Messages
- 3,504
- MBTI Type
- INTP
- Enneagram
- 5w6
- Instinctual Variant
- so/sx
Well I'm not sure how much stock you put in the 8 cognitive functions test, but my fuctions turned up in an order more like this.
Ne ... excellent
Ti ... excellent
Fi ... good
Ni ... good
Te ... average
Se ... average
Fe ... poor
Si ... poor
My Fi is really developed, but my Fe is not really developed at all. Sharing, bonding through experience, social ettiquette, etc... never really did much for me and still doesn't. On the other hand I have a fairly well developed sense of personal values. My Fi is much stronger than my Fe regardless of what the theory says it is supposed to be.
I'm not really saying that Ti is only good for analyzing, because I use it a lot. It's extremely practical. But I could never define myself by my ideas. Even before I knew about MBTI I envisioned myself as a great introverted thinker, i.e. an INTP type, but eventually I realized that it really wasn't me. The ideas have to be applied in some practical manner, and I didn't have a sense of purpose about how to apply these ideas, until I developed a personal morality.
I tried getting my core from Ti, but I really think that only works for IxTP's. My identity seems to come more from wanting to have an impact on the world around me. I need a sense of purpose to do this and that comes from my Fi. Ti has always been insufficient in providing me with an identity.
P.S. I really think Socrates is an ENTP rather than INTP.
Ah yes, the cognitive functions test gave me a high Fi score and a high Ti score for INFPs.
I think the case here is that its my Ti being influenced by Fe and thus resembling an Fi, and vice versa for INFPs.
I agree that an ENTP is unlikely to find a sense of higher purpose with Ti alone, his aim must be externalized. When an ENTP finds a higher purpose, Ne will play a salient role, so will Fe. Though again, in order to start seeking the higher purpose, he must turn inwards, and that will likely be through Ti. There he will learn to implement Fe and Ne externally to meet the higher purpose that Ti has conjured, Fe will back Ti up. And in the same fashion as for the INTP, will resemble an Fi because it manifests primarily through Ti.
Moreover, INTPs tend not to derive their sense of inner purpose through their ideas alone. But through the activity of passing assessments of the world internally. Spinoza was a great example of this. His chief doctrine on this matter was an intellectual love of god. Being a pantheist he believed that god was all, and hence infinite. Thought and imagination are properties of the infinite realm and hence we can access the infinite realm through a certain depth of thought. Henry David Thoreau has managed to find his higher purpose with Ti, though in a much less intricate fashion. Much of the same could be said for Jung's spirituality and how he took an impersonal approach to construct his views on eschatology.
Spinoza's utterance on this matter sums it up well for the Ti oriented search for higher purpose. Faith can only insantiate obedience, but it does not give us truth. We can only truly believe in something strongly enough to devote our entire lives to if we see a reason to think that what we believe in is true.
Hence, no belief can reasonably be expected to be held infallible till the end of time, so there isnt a particular philosophy that we can have absolute faith in forever. Contrary to what religions would like for us to believe. Yet, what we can do on this matter is make the search for truth our perennial quest.
Socrates was an ENTP and not an INTP? That is certainly a claim of merit.
Why would somebody say this?
First of all, he was a great conversationist. Adaptable extremely well. Always had a sharp retort in nearly any dialogue without taking the time to ponder things like INTPs often need to. And most of all, he sought to influence others on a profound level.
Well, we should also say that he cherished truth beyond all else. This was more important than influencing others. Pursuit of a higher purpose was seemingly a perennial quest for him which he never abandoned in favor of exploring new options like an ENTP may have in his shoes.
Moreover, he was not very image conscious. Often he would stand in the markets in his reveries for hours alone, and when others would ask him why he came as he never buys anything--he'd answer.."I am astounded by all the things that they have that i dont need'..He always wore the same outfit..and everybody in town agreed that he was ugly and he was not in the least disturbed by this..All he wanted to do, seemingly was argue about philosophy, even when it was obvious that noone else is interested. He never bothered to take care of practical concerns, the search for truth is all that he knew...He was always impecunious because he never worked and as for his wife, he said that it builds your inner stamina to live with a capricious wife..When he saved his old friend in battle, he claimed he was driven by an internal purpose, he knew that this was the fair thing to do..And when his friend was later reviled, most people in his shoes would have regretted having saved him and renounced that person as a friend in their eyes..Yet Socrates stood firm by his word..and was not in the least worried about how he is disliked..seemingly hardly affected him at all..whilst an ENTP may have had some issues with fickleness and being overly opportunistic..and would likely be concerned with their public image, wouldnt want to let their reputation go down the drain as they at least want to be liked enough to be listened to. Influencing others is quite important.
He refused to cooperate with tyrannical politicians and always did what he thought was right, what others thought seemingly had no value to him. And when he stood trial, he held firmly to his principles, even to the point where it came to a sink or swim time..All he had to say that he will pay a fine and he would have been released..but no..that went against his inner being. And in prison, he also could have escaped, but he chose to stay loyal to his principle that maintained the necessity to obey certain laws of authority under certain circumstances even if they make your circumstances unpropitious. Yet, an ENTP would likely be much more opportunistic here.
Lastly, when the oracle told him that he is the wisest man in town, he couldnt believe it untill he could find evidence for this in hard reasoning for himself. That is why he went on to argue with people to see if that was really true. And when they have become agonized at him, he continued to speak what he thought was the truth. That he is wiser than them because he at least is wise enough to know that he is an ignoramous, whilst they are still under the illusion that they know something. An ENTP would likely be smoother than this and certainly wouldnt push it to the point where it may cost them exile or their life just for the sake of ensuring that they stay by their principles.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lets look at David Hume as a representative of the ENTP type, the greatest of ENTP philosophers.
He was devoted to his principles and was repulsed by anything that doesn't involve in depth thinking.
He was very externally focused and students of philosophy are often disappointed to discover that philosophy wasn't his life. He spent more time applying philosophy than philosophizing.
Very eclectic. He was an eminent historian and a master of literature(this was one of his many hobbies). That is why he was one of the few philosophers who could style. He was also very politically active and in nearly everything he wrote, he wrote to influence. Writing for the sake of pondering ideas left him uninspired. Even when he wrote his philosophy, he always wrote for impact, he wrote to the general intelligent man, not some ivory tower academic. That is why he decided to become a man of letters and an essayist.
He had many acquaintances and among them the famous INTP economist, Adam Smith. Who perhaps was one of the few, if not the only his close friend. Many acted like they were also, yet if we look further into the issue they were not, and Hume was not much disturbed by this. At one point he has made a friendship with a neurotic ISFP Rousseau, who would accuse him of plotting against him frequently, he suffered from persecution mania. Every time Rousseau apologized, Hume said he forgave him..Yet in his letters to his friends we often see him vent about how much of a madman Rousseau was and how he could hardly stand him..and in the end he says that he could respect him for his whole life..
Hume followed his inner principles, but much more loosely than Socrates..he was a man of the world, and his principles served to build an inner identity so he would be more adept at making a difference...if he thought that he could go against his principles to win in the external world, he'd do it..so long as the discrepancy was not too grave. Moreover, Hume loved chaos theory beyond all else. He did not seek the absolute truth, he just wanted to play around with ideas and intellectual disorder fascinated him. He came to the conclusion that he can not reasonably know anything. That everything in the world is arbitrary, and all our delusions about how we know something boils down to no more than human psychology and unwitting self-deception. He wasnt disturbed in the least, he just moved on to writing history.
To an INTP this would be unacceptable, as the purpose of getting involved in the world is strictly reinforcing the internal quest of finding this best principles possible and the most sound inner identity possible.
Hume was also somewhat vain and finicky. He openly sought literary fame and was willing to compromise his interests in favor of winning admiration of others. That is why he quit philosophy to write history.