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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    SFJs are driven by social conscience. Doing what you're supposed to do or doing what is right by external standard.

    INPs are driven by an inner standard. Their values are not concerned with what society considers right, but with higher morality. INFPs are concerned witht the more person-centered values like compassion and harmony of feelings, yet INTPs with the higher philosophical virtues. Like honesty, clarity of thought and impartiality.

    Rene Descartes (INTP) once stumbled across Rembrandt an ISFP painter..and he asked him..what are you looking at...and Descartes having snapped out of his reveries replied in an awkward INTPish fashion...uh...so they talked..and in the end Rembrandt says..--You philosophers suck the very soul out of people and I am going to give it back to them!

    Rembrandt was implying that Philosophers are impersonal and make it impossible for people to have strong personal values..

    Yet towards the end of his life he reconsidered that proposition and in one of his paintings the theme was why philosophers talk in such abstruse, incomprehensible words..and he came to think that this is because they are seeking another world...just like John Milton was seeking his paradise..their values derive from their impersonally inclined search for a higher purpose.

    TPs are not any less focused on values than FPs, the common ground is introverted judgment. Just because they are less expressive about their values does not mean they are any less devoted to them as they are often more resolute and tough-minded about their inner purpose than FPs.
    I will not then insist on the N and T point. But as for the J point: Socrates strong sense of morality, of a set of values which should be taught and commonly accepted, his belief that true is absolute and independent of options, the tactics of dialectic and elenchus, are not likely to refer to a J? He seems a person not flexible in his quest for thuth, not likely to be open to all sort of options.
    And, talking about quest: Christ is often typed as an INFJ. But the way you describe INTPs and their relation with inner purpose and values seems to fit to Christ

  2. #12
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lastrailway View Post
    I will not then insist on the N and T point. But as for the J point: Socrates strong sense of morality, of a set of values which should be taught and commonly accepted, his belief that true is absolute and independent of options, the tactics of dialectic and elenchus, are not likely to refer to a J? He seems a person not flexible in his quest for thuth, not likely to be open to all sort of options.
    And, talking about quest: Christ is often typed as an INFJ. But the way you describe INTPs and their relation with inner purpose and values seems to fit to Christ
    Strong sense of morality is a P essence, not a J.

    J is about external morality. Socrates was 'all about' higher morality.

    IPs have strongers principles than EJs because they internalize their ethic. They value their principles because it applies to them personally and not to the group.

    The reason why Js seem like they have a stronger sense of morality than Ps because they exteranlize their ethic, yet Ps keep it on the inside.

    And yes, INPs are not flexible at all about their inner principles. They are flexible about external trivialities (they down play the external world quite a bit) and are flexible only to the point where one of their principles is violated.

    Difference between Christ and Socrates is that Christ was concerned with external morality. What is to be deemed appropriate and what values society should endrose. Yet Socrates was mostly concerned with inner values pertaining to the individual. That is why, unlike FJs and Christ, he hated to preach. When he was talking about his values, he was merely informing, not imposing like the Js.
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  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Half the people on this forum (technically) should have an Introverted Judging function guiding them.

    BW, you're the only one who talks endless to an audience that isn't paying attention.

    Remarkably, the other Ti/Fi'ers can figure out when their soliloquy is appropriate to the conversation at hand.

    That's the meat of this. You don't need to develop a philosophical argument as to why your behavior is somehow appropriate or typical or expected. It's all just obfuscation of the truth that you're not really speaking to any audience (or are aiming your discourse at any other audience) but yourself.

    And in that case, why not either indulge yourself in private somewhere, or else tailor your conversation in a way that people can respond to?
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Strong sense of morality is a P essence, not a J.

    J is about external morality. Socrates was 'all about' higher morality.

    IPs have strongers principles than EJs because they internalize their ethic. They value their principles because it applies to them personally and not to the group.

    The reason why Js seem like they have a stronger sense of morality than Ps because they exteranlize their ethic, yet Ps keep it on the inside.

    And yes, INPs are not flexible at all about their inner principles. They are flexible about external trivialities (they down play the external world quite a bit) and are flexible only to the point where one of their principles is violated.
    But would a P try to apply their inner principles to a whole society? Would they try to teach them and make them accepted? Or they would try and live up to their inner values but would not need to see other people accept them as well?

  5. #15
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lastrailway View Post
    But would a P try to apply their inner principles to a whole society? Would they try to teach them and make them accepted? Or they would try and live up to their inner values but would not need to see other people accept them as well?
    A P would not try to teach them or try to make them acceptable. A P would only offer/inform. INPs hate to preach. They want for their life to be their teaching.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Half the people on this forum (technically) should have an Introverted Judging function guiding them.

    BW, you're the only one who talks endless to an audience that isn't paying attention.

    Remarkably, the other Ti/Fi'ers can figure out when their soliloquy is appropriate to the conversation at hand.

    That's the meat of this. You don't need to develop a philosophical argument as to why your behavior is somehow appropriate or typical or expected. It's all just obfuscation of the truth that you're not really speaking to any audience (or are aiming your discourse at any other audience) but yourself.

    And in that case, why not either indulge yourself in private somewhere, or else tailor your conversation in a way that people can respond to?
    Appropriate, typical, expected..thats all Extroverted Judgment business that I have no regard for...I didnt write anything on that matter in this thread..

    My argument was that Introverted Judgment is less likely to be myopic than Extroverted...that was the essence, nothing else.

    Protean's comment is irrelevant because our discussion was about ENTP/INTP dynamic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    And in that case, why not either indulge yourself in private somewhere, or else tailor your conversation in a way that people can respond to?
    The discussion was between Laser and I and railway and I. (Two seperate discussions) the confusion began with protean's derailment. (We were talking about the ENTP/INTP dynamic, and how it relates to the chameleon aspect and typology in general and she came out with a statement about how I just have to bring philosophers into this..it had nothing to do with what we were talking about and the fact that these men were philosophers was only incidental..we just had to find examples in history of how people of those types behaved and what we can learn from that about typology..)
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    A P would not try to teach them or try to make them acceptable. A P would only offer/inform. INPs hate to preach. They want for their life to be their teaching.
    Interesting. My viewpoint on P and J definition was clearly different.
    Then you say Socrates was not trying to pass his values to his students, or that the fact he did criticise the politics and the sociable acceptable morals by suggesting his ideals instead is not a J characteristic? Or you say Socrates lived his life up to his ideals and his teaching was a discussion in order to help others to find the way to his conclusions?

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by lastrailway View Post
    Interesting. My viewpoint on P and J definition was clearly different.
    Then you say Socrates was not trying to pass his values to his students, or that the fact he did criticise the politics and the sociable acceptable morals by suggesting his ideals instead is not a J characteristic? Or you say Socrates lived his life up to his ideals and his teaching was a discussion in order to help others to find the way to his conclusions?

    Socrates criticized the government because it disagreed with his principles. He wasnt trying to force change. He was just expressing his views. And sharing ideas was an end in itself for him. He wasnt trying to have his students conform to his views like a J may. He was having an informal discussion with them most of the time.
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Before we proceed, let me make sure I understand your argument properly.

    Proposition: Socrates is an ENTP

    Why?

    ...
    Well I could answer this exceedingly long post point by point arguing how each element really describes Socrates as an ENTP. Then you will likely respond point by point that Socrates is really INTP....

    From your post it seems that you agree that Socrates did many things that an ENTP would do, but the reason why he did these things is because he is an INTP. Instead of answering point by point let me present to you this hypothesis. The reasons that Socrates did the things he did is actually Plato's explanation of Socrates behavior. After all "The Apology" is clearly not simply a biography about the death of Socrates. It is clear that it is a document used to instruct about wisdom. (And really all of Plato's writings about Socrates are like this). So while Plato is telling the story about what Socrates did, he is inserting much of his own (introverted) views about why Socrates did the things he did.

    Socrates acted like an ENTP, because he was an ENTP. But the reasons behind his actions look like an introvert's reasons, because Plato is an introvert.
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Well I could answer this exceedingly long post point by point arguing how each element really describes Socrates as an ENTP. Then you will likely respond point by point that Socrates is really INTP....

    From your post it seems that you agree that Socrates did many things that an ENTP would do, but the reason why he did these things is because he is an INTP. Instead of answering point by point let me present to you this hypothesis. The reasons that Socrates did the things he did is actually Plato's explanation of Socrates behavior. After all "The Apology" is clearly not simply a biography about the death of Socrates. It is clear that it is a document used to instruct about wisdom. (And really all of Plato's writings about Socrates are like this). So while Plato is telling the story about what Socrates did, he is inserting much of his own (introverted) views about why Socrates did the things he did.

    Socrates acted like an ENTP, because he was an ENTP. But the reasons behind his actions look like an introvert's reasons, because Plato is an introvert.
    Ah, so basically you're saying that Socrates didnt really have much of a higher purpose. He argued to piss people off and to seek adventure. The reason why he seemed like an INTP while doing this (as if he had a higher purpose) is because Plato romanticized him.

    That is certainly a theory. But what reason do we have to suspect that Plato did not represent Socrates the way he really was? After all, all the people that conversed with Socrates in Plato's dialogues were alive when Plato published his writings. Unless he'd want to spend a lot of time at the courts, I'd think it would be wise of him to tell the story like it was as he intended it as a historical documentary, not fiction. If Socrates wasnt the magnanimous being that Plato painted him as, dont you think that others would take issue with such a rendition?

    Socrates behaved like an INTP, only resembled an ENTP on a very superficial level. NTPs on the surface seem similar because we are dealing with their extroverted Intuition. The difference between the two consists in how much they are influenced by Introverted Judgment. Socrates was influenced by introverted judgment more than all, I would risk to say, eminent ENTP men of history were.

    We see reasons to believe that Socrates was led by Introverted Judgment as much as I think he was based on the way Plato told the story. Not based on Plato's personal commentary on the matter. The only way Plato may have misrepresented the ENTP Socrates as an INTP is if he told the story differently from the way it really was.
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