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  1. #61
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ojian View Post


    I'm a little dismayed from some of the reasoning's put forth in this thread.

    There are some interesting definitions of 'infinite', and even the 'omni---", going around here. But they do not jive with the Bible's descriptions, though supposedly that is what you are basing your argument on. I would really like to see your references as to how you feel the Bible text supports your argument, since it seems to me the Bible is the real victim of the attack.

    For instance, where in the Bible is the though conveyed that God is infinite as meaning he must be everything.



    A confused view? Granted, I can see how someone might agree with this, but without the specific references your argument is as hollow as God is supposedly 'infinitely' everything.

    If God is not infinite he cannot be omnipotent. We are not even at the point where we ought to cite biblical referrence for the explicit claims concerning God's infinity.
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  2. #62
    Member Ojian's Avatar
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    I think its evident that for God to create the stars after the earth, he would need to be omnipotent . in order to be omnipotent, he needs the ability to overcome anything. What allows anything to overcome anything? energy. He needs infinite energy because otherwise he might come upon a situation where he lacks the energy to be all powerful. So God has infinite energy. All the energy God has, is of God because otherwise it would be infinite in its own right and therefore be something "of more power" that separately exists from God. Further, it would be something that God depends on that is seperate from himself and therefore would make God not the highest thing worthy of worship.
    I think the problem I have here is again with your definition of "infinite".

    As far as I understand it and normally see it defined, Infinite is a term of measure to describe something in its particular context that is unmeasurable. Pulled from an online dictionary -
    1: extending indefinitely : endless <infinite space>
    2: immeasurably or inconceivably great or extensive : inexhaustible <infinite patience>
    3: subject to no limitation or external determination
    4 a: extending beyond, lying beyond, or being greater than any preassigned finite value however large.

    Something finite can be measured, has a limit. Something infinite cannot be measured or limited. Yet that doesnt mean that the something that is finite is part of, connected, related necessarily to the same something that is infinite.

    "Infinite" is not equal to "All"

    Therefore God must himself BE infinite energy. everything in our universe is a form of energy. If there is an infinite set of energy out there, how can we really be "separate" from that set if we are all energy?
    I wouldn't agree with that because it seems to be saying that God must be all energy, and anything else that is also considered "energy" must be part of God. Rather, I would say God has an unlimited energy source available to him, and using that energy he was able to create a separate, but finite something that you could probably refer to as "energy" if you wanted. Yes it would be from God, but not necessarily part of him.

    If God is not infinite he cannot be omnipotent. We are not even at the point where we ought to cite biblical referrence for the explicit claims concerning God's infinity.
    According to YOUR definition of 'infinite/infinity' and 'omnipotent' maybe. My definition is different.

    But your argument originally stated:
    "I have argued that the existence of a Judeo-Christian God is not possible on the grounds of the impossibility of an infinite and an omnipotent creature, as well as the impossibility of a being who is the creator of the universe."
    The Bible is typically the source that is used to define who/what the "Judeo-Christian God" is, so any reference to him being 'infinite/infinity' and 'omnipotent' has to agree with the Bibles description. (Incidentally, I would point out those specific terms are not found in the Bible, at least in respect to the context of the discussion). And I would submit that the Bible's description of God's 'omnipotence' is merely referring to his having unlimited power/force/ability/etc to overcome any obstacles to the fulfillment of his purpose. It does NOT mean that he is everything, or even can do or does everything.

    So ya, with respect to the Judeo-Christian God, you do need to cite the Biblical references to support your definitions, otherwise they don't apply.

  3. #63
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    If God is not infinite he cannot be omnipotent. We are not even at the point where we ought to cite biblical referrence for the explicit claims concerning God's infinity.
    Because Reason is your foundational criteria, and any scriptural authority has to submit to it. (sorry, just stating the obvious, for clarity for others here.)

    (It was a big "aha" for me when I realized that this was the reason I had such issues with people relying on scripture in the face of external evidence -- the book is not my ultimate authority, it's "reason" and "life experience," and if a book or whatever else is inconsistent with what truth I can observe in life, it's at best irrelevant and at worst just wrong. But others seem quite capable of judging life experience and reason in light of their holy writs.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  4. #64
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ojian View Post
    I think the problem I have here is again with your definition of "infinite".

    As far as I understand it and normally see it defined, Infinite is a term of measure to describe something in its particular context that is unmeasurable. Pulled from an online dictionary -
    1: extending indefinitely : endless <infinite space>
    2: immeasurably or inconceivably great or extensive : inexhaustible <infinite patience>
    3: subject to no limitation or external determination
    4 a: extending beyond, lying beyond, or being greater than any preassigned finite value however large.

    Something finite can be measured, has a limit. Something infinite cannot be measured or limited. Yet that doesnt mean that the something that is finite is part of, connected, related necessarily to the same something that is infinite.

    "Infinite" is not equal to "All"



    I wouldn't agree with that because it seems to be saying that God must be all energy, and anything else that is also considered "energy" must be part of God. Rather, I would say God has an unlimited energy source available to him, and using that energy he was able to create a separate, but finite something that you could probably refer to as "energy" if you wanted. Yes it would be from God, but not necessarily part of him.



    According to YOUR definition of 'infinite/infinity' and 'omnipotent' maybe. My definition is different.

    But your argument originally stated:
    "I have argued that the existence of a Judeo-Christian God is not possible on the grounds of the impossibility of an infinite and an omnipotent creature, as well as the impossibility of a being who is the creator of the universe."
    The Bible is typically the source that is used to define who/what the "Judeo-Christian God" is, so any reference to him being 'infinite/infinity' and 'omnipotent' has to agree with the Bibles description. (Incidentally, I would point out those specific terms are not found in the Bible, at least in respect to the context of the discussion). And I would submit that the Bible's description of God's 'omnipotence' is merely referring to his having unlimited power/force/ability/etc to overcome any obstacles to the fulfillment of his purpose. It does NOT mean that he is everything, or even can do or does everything.

    So ya, with respect to the Judeo-Christian God, you do need to cite the Biblical references to support your definitions, otherwise they don't apply.
    Infinite is used in the strictly mathematical sense. Which does mean without a beginning and without an end. It is not possible to be without a beginning and without an end and at the same time be finite. Whatever is without a beginning and without an end is all things. If A has no end, it is not possible for B to exist because in order for B to exist independently of A, A must end somewhere. Or B must exist before A started to exist, but that is also impossible because A never had that point where it started to exist.

    Here we equate infinite with ubiqutious or all things.

    Nothing in this world is infinite because we see the world in many attributes. Remember, if we have both A and B, then neither one can be infinite, as whatever is infinite does not allow for anything else besides itself to exist.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ojian View Post
    And I would submit that the Bible's description of God's 'omnipotence' is merely referring to his having unlimited power/force/ability/etc to overcome any obstacles to the fulfillment of his purpose. It does NOT mean that he is everything, or even can do or does everything..
    1) In order for this to be possible, God must be outside of the universe directing it, like I can direct a robot with a remote control. This is not possible because the universe is all things. Hence, this is an argument against the omnipotence of God.

    Having established that the universe is infinite itself, and the Bible explicitly regards God as omnipresent, he is required to be infinite.

    If Bible is to regard God is infinite (will need to cite scripture for this), he cannot be a person. As a person is necessarily a finite entity. Therefore God cannot have human qualities (the Bible insists that we pray to him much like we are having a conversation with another person, or that he smiles or laughs, or that he created Adam out of clay like a human potter). If God is finite, he cannot be omnipotent or omnipresent.

    Again, with regard to your definition of omnipotence, it is not any different from the one I had. A finite entity cannot be omnipotent because it is within the closed system of causation, it therefore obeys the laws of nature it is environed in.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  5. #65
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Infinite is used in the strictly mathematical sense. Which does mean without a beginning and without an end. It is not possible to be without a beginning and without an end and at the same time be finite. Whatever is without a beginning and without an end is all things. If A has no end, it is not possible for B to exist because in order for B to exist independently of A, A must end somewhere. Or B must exist before A started to exist, but that is also impossible because A never had that point where it started to exist.
    No. A line does not have a beginning or end, and does not contain anything outside it's one-dimensional scope.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    No. A line does not have a beginning or end, and does not contain anything outside it's one-dimensional scope.
    I assume that's the case if you're talking about "beginning and end" in regards to time, or some other singular dimension.

    What if you generalize "beginning and end" to encompass the concept of being unbounded in any dimension, not just time or length?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #67
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Well sure, if you have no beginning or end in any dimension, then you encompass all things. But that wasn't the claim.

  8. #68
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    No. A line does not have a beginning or end, and does not contain anything outside it's one-dimensional scope.
    This is why we use symbols to represent a line, all our symbols are finite. You never see the pure essence of a line in this world for this reason.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  9. #69
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennifer
    What if you generalize "beginning and end" to encompass the concept of being unbounded in any dimension, not just time or length?
    This is a violation of the mathematical term of infinity. Nothing in this world exists that one could accurately describe as infinite.

    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    Well sure, if you have no beginning or end in any dimension, then you encompass all things. But that wasn't the claim.
    The point was that the infinity of the universe evinces the impossibility of creationism. Creationism requires that God be analogous to the universe like a robot controller to a robot. This is impossible, as in this case the robot controller is inseparable from the robot.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

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