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  1. #41
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If this is the case, then evil is necessary because good is set up as its opposite. It needs to oppose something. The definitions make a dichotomous pair. Denying the existence of evil in such as system would require denying the existence of good as well, and point to some other yardstick with which to measure actions and intentions.
    I think that's a virtuous dichotomy though, at least if you conceive as good as the "thing itself" and evil as its "shadow", good is therefore positive and evil the inferior negative. Anything else is manichean equivalence or equality assumed between the two opposites.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    Why can nobody ever define evil? Maybe the meaning is different for every type?

    >> Does the general population think that "those on another function spectrum than they are" are evil?
    Like the Fi hating the Ti for being Ti, or the Ti hating the Fi for being Fi?
    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post
    I don't think the general population of TypeC is that tribal. At least I hope not.

    I don't think the general population of the world is aware of typology. Probably the three biggest determinants of morality are religion, culture, and parenting, which is how people end up with such diverse ideas about good and evil.
    About the general population being unaware of typology: You don't have to exactly define their type to hate them, and you don't have to exactly define their type to know there is such a thing as types in general.
    But without knowing there are types in general you might blame it on the wrong thing, instead of their type. The uninformed population about "the types" might think that it's because these other-type poor bastards had some trauma in their early years, and now these other-types ended-up fucked-up... (But actually the other-types are just another type and they are not fucked-up at all).

    So, if you don't know about types, and believe everyone is the same, then you start hating them for being their type, then they hate you even more for being your type. This can escalate pretty badly. Especially if similar types group together, and get separated from other types.

    Isn't it the separation of types, into big one-type-only collectives, which causes evil, perversion and other ugly stuff? (Actually "the left" and "the right" is a kind of typology example.)

    Obviously no type can survive alone, they are all caricatures. And all types are doomed to perversion, depravity, sickness and evil when alone, if they are not refreshed by other types. Its just a different type of perversion/depravity/sickness/evil for each type, but applies to all.

    Only if the different types work together, they can accomplish greatness together. And greatness is obviously: good / not evil.


    Nice conclusion here:
    1) The belief that everyone is the same, and thus not knowing about the types (and thinking the perfect human is possible and is just 1 type, whether projected in yourself or another) is evil.
    2) Knowing about types (and accepting the types, and your own humility as a type) is good.


    Even more evil:
    Causing (1) globally. And keeping (2) for the 1%.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont believe any of those things were necessary evils or even necessary suffering but they are great examples of avoidable evil or avoidable suffering and in much of the world they have been eradicated or are the subject of efforts to eradicate them or contain, reduce and manage them.

    I think those things are rationalisations or excuses for the evils, after the fact, like rationalisations in an individual for behaviours, in part arising from the fact that life can only be understood backwards but paradoxically has to be lived forwards.

    However, I would say that conflict, competition, diversity and alternatives from which to choose are all objective goods, sometimes they are confused with or as bad things but that's a product, to my mind, of ideology and prejudices more than anything else.
    Agreed. I think that 'developmental evil' is largely inevitable because people are flawed. We're prone to be small-minded, greedy, fearful, and we have a way of dehumanizing people who look or talk differently. But it isn't necessary evil.

    Take the European conquest of the Americas, for example, and the continued oppression of the native folks after the European settlers eventually became the new Americans. Did the conquistadors have to kill a bunch of south Americans to convince them how cool guns and steel are? No. Did native Americans have to be forced out of their homelands to make room for the pilgrims? No; there was room, and bargains to be struck. After the U.S. bought the Louisiana Purchase from France, did we have to force a bunch of native folks into smaller and smaller reservations? (And hey, fuck the weak ones that die along the Trail of Tears! They're just savages.) No; we could have bargained and worked for our place in the new world, and still ended up with our Mega-Malls.

    But that's more or less how history goes. We dehumanize and push others out of our way in order to make life easier for ourselves, while painting ourselves as the heroes. And then later generations rationalize it under the rug.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post
    Agreed. I think that 'developmental evil' is largely inevitable because people are flawed. We're prone to be small-minded, greedy, fearful, and we have a way of dehumanizing people who look or talk differently. But it isn't necessary evil.

    Take the European conquest of the Americas, for example, and the continued oppression of the native folks after the European settlers eventually became the new Americans. Did the conquistadors have to kill a bunch of south Americans to convince them how cool guns and steel are? No. Did native Americans have to be forced out of their homelands to make room for the pilgrims? No; there was room, and bargains to be struck. After the U.S. bought the Louisiana Purchase from France, did we have to force a bunch of native folks into smaller and smaller reservations? (And hey, fuck the weak ones that die along the Trail of Tears! They're just savages.) No; we could have bargained and worked for our place in the new world, and still ended up with our Mega-Malls.

    But that's more or less how history goes. We dehumanize and push others out of our way in order to make life easier for ourselves, while painting ourselves as the heroes. And then later generations rationalize it under the rug.
    I'm inclined to actually believe that by nature humans are more benign and benevolent than all that, however I think that entropy, the legacies of past times when other more savage conditions reigned and the blind alleys of reform and adjustment in response to technological changes, resource pressures etc. has given rise to conscious and unconscious social character to which people conform to be materially successful or gain status or power.

    There is hope however because I dont think that human nature is infinitely malleable and I dont believe that humans are infinitely adaptable either, so the status quo is not permanent and will experience crisis.

    Although a good outcome is not inevitable either, worse things are possible than the status quo and crisis can be an opportunity for deterioration as much as an opportunity for change and growth.

    What I would say about the past which you describe is that while the conquistadors were a rum lot you should read about the people they suppressed and killed, their traditions, religious order and norms were terrifying, even at the time of the conquistadors invasion, its the same as the thugee cult in India and the british, it may never have been as terrible as the depiction in Indiana Jones but the Kali cults were terrifying by any standard, each of these struggles were in their own ways the necessary evil prevailing over the greater evil, actually, if you ask me, not all of the indian tribes were to be judged as being as violent or wicked as one another though, that's like judging the whole of europe together, french, germans, belgians, turks, swedes etc. etc. but some of them were terrible too.

    Also there are horrible realities which are difficult for anyone living in a modern liberal society which seeks to foster non-discriminatory attitudes to relate to but they were realities for the people living in them, such as race war and racism, which was not exclusively a white invention or ideology by any stretch of the imagination, if you read any serious history of the indian wars or frontier settlers you may understand this more, a lot of the frontier settlers were individuals fleeing tyranny, sectarianism, competiting nationalisms, other political struggles they wanted no part off but they werent welcome in the seemingly empty plains they set up home in and became the unwilling pawns or victims of territorial disputes.

  5. #45

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    Evil is relativ...good is relativ...morality is relativ

  6. #46
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its a mistake to conflate temporal power with God and divinity.

    Although power does tend to corrupt and absolute power would corrupt absolutely. Its a consequence of people being human, all too human.
    Yes, and it seems to there are institutions which foster good and institutions which foster evil.

    Our criminal law for instance almost exclusively sees degrees of evil in individuals. Our criminal law is not set up to see degrees of evil in institutions.

    Yet we know that institutions determine to what degree a country is good of evil. The institutions of North Korea largely determine that North Korea is an evil country, while for instance the institutions of Australia largely determine Australia is a good country.

    Mbti is a peculiar institution in that it doesn't distinguish between good and evil. Mbti is set up to pander to vanity and fantasy. Mbti is essentially an apologia for evil, an excuse for evil, begun by Carl Jung and codified by Mrs Briggs and Mrs Myers.

    Evil of course needs an excuse. Evil cannot come out into the light of day. Evil cannot stand in its own two feet. Evil needs an apologia to stifle the conscience. We need permission to do evil. And some institutions give permission to do evil and some do not.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inis Mona View Post
    Evil is relativ...good is relativ...morality is relativ
    OK, I'll bite, how so? What evidence have you?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Yes, and it seems to there are institutions which foster good and institutions which foster evil.

    Our criminal law for instance almost exclusively sees degrees of evil in individuals. Our criminal law is not set up to see degrees of evil in institutions.

    Yet we know that institutions determine to what degree a country is good of evil. The institutions of North Korea largely determine that North Korea is an evil country, while for instance the institutions of Australia largely determine Australia is a good country.

    Mbti is a peculiar institution in that it doesn't distinguish between good and evil. Mbti is set up to pander to vanity and fantasy. Mbti is essentially an apologia for evil, an excuse for evil, begun by Carl Jung and codified by Mrs Briggs and Mrs Myers.

    Evil of course needs an excuse. Evil cannot come out into the light of day. Evil cannot stand in its own two feet. Evil needs an apologia to stifle the conscience. We need permission to do evil. And some institutions give permission to do evil and some do not.
    Hmm, maybe.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    OK, I'll bite, how so? What evidence have you?
    The evidence is that the morality is completly based on our own subjective view of reality and created based on one sided and rigid view points. Kiling people is bad, but kiling a killer is good, because we have a moral justification for kiling people who kill people... think of it for a while...just wtf?!

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inis Mona View Post
    The evidence is that the morality is completly based on our own subjective view of reality and created based on one sided and rigid view points. Kiling people is bad, but kiling a killer is good, because we have a moral justification for kiling people who kill people... think of it for a while...just wtf?!
    The difference between imagination and reality is that reality is not subjective. Reality is independent of us, while imagination is not.

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    The difference between imagination and reality is that reality is not subjective. Reality is independent of us, while imagination is not.
    the view of the reality can be subjective, because its view can be completly a work of our own imgination

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