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  1. #21
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    It's difficult to determine blame between the tool and the users. After all reducing something into a general idea is what humans do a lot of the time anyhow, but like astrology using it as anything but the surface approach little bit of entertainment that it is, causes dangerously preemptive idea's about other people.

    There really is little more to it than seeking a pattern and hoping it fits. Obviously I'm biased against it as I despise and fear the idea that a person would deal with me or engage with me on the notion of the type they think I am, rather than as another human being.
    Now I know that seems a bit unfair but I think its almost impossible to avoid a theory like this influencing how a person looks at others.

    Also I have met very few people who claim it has somehow helped them in a real way. In many cases I see a person talking about a relationship it has helped with, but all I see is someone who decided to take a different approach and become perhaps more empathetic towards others and considerate that people see the world differently. But to me it would seem a person could come to that conclusion on their own without the need of an apparently pseudo-psychological theory that merely tricks them into doing so.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  2. #22
    Senior Member TheCheeseBurgerKing's Avatar
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    The system is limited. Its a theory for christs sake. Then some morons try and act like everything they say about mbti is golden. Its not even a concrete system, good lord.

  3. #23
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    Wut? MBTI/JCF doesn't apply itself. It's applied by people to themselves or other people. If it's a tool that causes detrimental impact, then don't use it. The same principle applies to anything, including fruit. If you eat too much fruit, you'll get the runs. Does this mean that fruit's bad for you?

    It's a fun form of shorthand, for the lazy like myself. Instead of needing to communicate essays, one can communicate it concisely through application of four simple letters. Efficient.
    Creationism can be and is applied life, but we have a better description called Natural Selection.

    In the same way mbti can be and is applied to personality, but we have better descriptions in psychometrics.

  4. #24
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Creationism can be and is applied life, but we have a better description called Natural Selection.

    In the same way mbti can be and is applied to personality, but we have better descriptions in psychometrics.
    4/5 traits for psychometric instrument Big Five, correlates to MBTI dichotomies. This was quite clearly stated in a study by McCrae and Costa, the creators of Neo-PR-I.

    As with all psychological and scientific theory, they continue maturing in complexity which does not mean the initial roughly hewn framework is useless, particularly as a form of lazy short hand.

    Idealism tends to fall flat on its face since it seeks perfection to compensate for inner imperfections. In self-acceptance, everything else is set free.

  5. #25
    I want my account deleted
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    There really is little more to it than seeking a pattern and hoping it fits. Obviously I'm biased against it as I despise and fear the idea that a person would deal with me or engage with me on the notion of the type they think I am, rather than as another human being.
    Now I know that seems a bit unfair but I think its almost impossible to avoid a theory like this influencing how a person looks at others.

    Also I have met very few people who claim it has somehow helped them in a real way. In many cases I see a person talking about a relationship it has helped with, but all I see is someone who decided to take a different approach and become perhaps more empathetic towards others and considerate that people see the world differently. But to me it would seem a person could come to that conclusion on their own without the need of an apparently pseudo-psychological theory that merely tricks them into doing so.
    Well, the question that comes up for me here is whether your biases would require you to actually perceptually erase (meaning: refuse to see) the reality of my own lived experiences because it doesn't fit into your views on this.

    In my lived experience over time, MBTI has helped in my relationship with my partner in very real ways. Specifically, it has given us a shared conceptual language with which to discuss things that were present and causing some tension/difficulties, but that we didn't previously have a way to usefully address. For us, having this shared language functions as a way to better understand each other as specific human beings (not as representatives of a type, as so often happens here on this site for example). For us, having this shared language helps us to actually consciously see and discuss dynamics that previously were there but it felt like, I don't know, trying to grasp smoke or swing at ghosts or something.

    Now, there are some factors with us that may make it possible for us to use this tool in a truly useful and practical way.

    First, we're both ridiculously easy to type within the system as we've encountered it. The concepts, especially the cognitive function stacks, map to real stuff in each of us in ways that we can clearly recognize in ourselves, our respective and mutual life experiences, and each other. (I'm INFJ, she's INFP, BTW)

    Second, MBTI isn't a worldview for us, and we don't need it to be valid for all people in order for it to be useful for us. We're very practical about its very specific uses as a shared language to gain better mutual understanding.

    Third, and possibly most relevant to this discussion ... as much as we can fight and clash as a couple about various things, neither of us has ever once even hinted at using our respective MBTI typing as a weapon against the other. From what I can see, such weaponizing happens a LOT in TypeC discussions. People deal with their own issues by attacking entire types, people attack individuals using their type against them, people try to "re-type" people as a mode of personal attack, etc etc ... all sorts of nasty stuff. My partner and I don't even come close to doing that. Ever. Our use of the MBTI conceptual tools has been unrelentingly cooperative and positive with each other.

    As for how it actually works between us, here are a few examples:

    Example 1: There's this thing my partner does that feels unpleasant and deeply confusing to me. We'll be talking about some topic, sometimes something totally trivial, and all of a sudden, she'll start streaming this intense defensive energy for what seems to me to be no reason at all. Any resistance or disagreement on my part just makes it worse. These situations always feel bad to me, at times it's led to fights that I don't understand at all. With the MBTI conceptual language, I can understand (and I have checked with her on this for accuracy) that this thing happens when one of her core Fi values comes into play and is challenged or threatened. A lot of times it's been me doing that challenging/threatening without realizing what I'm doing. For me, knowing about how Fi works in relation to her core values helps in at least a couple of ways. First, I'm far less confused when that defensive energy comes up and I can be more deliberate in how I interact with her. Second, I'm starting to get a sense of some of her core values from tracing these situations back to their source - knowing more about her core values is really great for me as I try to understand her better as a person overall.

    Example 2: When I'm in the midst of Ni perceptual processing mode and she asks me how I am or what's going on with me, I will often respond with metaphors that don't have any conscious meaning yet. That state of "no conscious meaning" stresses her out and her response to me when I speak from that space is to try to assign meaning to what I'm saying (as I understand it in MBTI terms from our conversations, her Ne-aux starts generating possible meanings because as a judging dominant she is internally uncomfortable with what she calls "vagueness" and wants to pin things down somehow). When she voices those possible meanings back to me in the mode of trying to be supportive/responsive to what I'm saying, it can throw me off track because Fe-aux in me calls on me to consider those possible meanings as true, which takes my attention from the necessary quiet space I need to allow the Ni meaning to emerge into its consciousness its own way on its own time. Without the MBTI conceptual language, this dynamic still happened. But we didn't know what was going on and we each felt like the other didn't allow us to be ourselves with each other, and maybe this was some awful incompatibility between us and .... spiraling from there.

    With the shared language and understanding, we can be much kinder to ourselves and each other related to this dynamic. We can understand that this is really a matter of information processing differences. So for example, from my end, the fact that she can't directly relate to my Ni processing mode in certain phases of its operation isn't because she doesn't love/is hostile to what I am and how I move at my deepest core, it's because the way she processes information makes that particular "vagueness" unpleasant for her. Knowing this makes a huge difference to me. On a practical level (in terms of action), being able to understand this dynamic in terms of differences in information processing means that it's way easier for us both to see the usefulness of her waiting to hear about certain things going on with me until I have a more conscious grasp of my Ni-sourced information and what it means. That waiting on her part, and the related lack of expectation that she should be able to hear it before then, functions as form of support for me, for us and for her.

    Example 3: This one that happened partly because of conversations I had on this site about INFJ/INFP and INTJ/INTP dynamics meshing with things that emerged between the two of us. Here's my overarching description:

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    And I'll add from my current vantage point: Since we grasped this dynamic, we've been moving toward a level of mutual understanding deeper than I actually ever thought we could get. Letting ourselves off the hook on the "middle ground" has somehow (I don't yet know how) opened us into seeing deep convergences in our perspectives that have been hidden to us before we grasped and consciously began acting on this middle ground thing. This new development is still in process in a huge way, but we're getting real glimpses of deep deep convergences inside of the differences that appear to be opposed. The cognitive function/MBTI discussions have given us a way to get to that place, with the shared language and with the dialogue I had with others here.

    The above are just a few examples. There are lots more in our case. I want to be clear that I don't think our case says anything generalizable about MBTI uses. It's quite obvious to me that it can be used in some really nasty and problematic ways, and I see evidence of that here at TypeC quite regularly. That said, in our specific case, it has been useful in real ways, and I would hope that whatever theory or bias people have about it won't go into overkill to erase the reality that we've actually experienced. (though such perspectives aren't going to stop us from continuing to use this tool where it's useful to us).

  6. #26
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    @Werebudgie

    It's good that you found some positive use for the theory, but your examples only highlight my point that there is no real evidence beyond the heuristic that supports this idea. If anything it is merely a placeholder for the more useful revelation that perhaps we should be more empathetic and considerate of the differences amongst people, which is where I think Jung was onto something even if don't entirely agree with the whole premise.

    Conflict often does arise from trying to reach similar objectives through different angles.

    I guess like all humanities ideas It's really just a good lie to help us cope with our existence.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  7. #27
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    In self-acceptance, everything else is set free.
    Self acceptance is the mantra of the narcissist; self control and self respect are the song of the mensch.

  8. #28
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Self acceptance is the mantra of the narcissist; self control and self respect are the song of the mensch.
    Clearly mensch marching in goose step or else; is indicative of mental health and vitality.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    we should be more empathetic and considerate of the differences amongst people. Conflict often does arise from trying to reach similar objectives through different angles.
    The global horror that continues to unfold in Syria arises from trying to reach similar objectives through different angles. And could be resolved if we were more empathetic and considerate of the differences amongst people.

  10. #30
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default The Goose, the Mole and the Gambol

    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    Clearly mensch marching in goose step or else; is indicative of mental health and vitality.
    A point of personal explanation please!

    I am not a goose. I am a Mole in a long line of Moles.

    I glory in being a Mole. I wake in the morning, poke my nose out the door, and say, Good morning Sunshine, and the Sun smiles back as She has done for millennia.

    I accept your apology, though why you should mistake me for a goose is beyond me.

    So why not join Ratty, Toad, Badger, and my good self, and gambol in the Sunshine?

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