Prayer in school

[esidebill]

Why did you air-quote 'person'?

Why do you air-quote 'person'?

 

[Lark]

Says the "person" who thinks marijuana causes brain damage.

Thinks nothing, I've got your posts to evidence that.

 

[Nicodemus]

Why do you air-quote 'person'?

Because she referenced the word, not the person.

 

[Perch420]

I consider personhood a privilege, not a right.

 

[Nicodemus]

I consider personhood a privilege, not a right.

Why?

 

[Mole]

Violence, Anti-Semitism and Liberal Democracy

You put the first quote under my post and wrote the second one when Marmie explained to you that what she and I consider a left or liberal position has nothing to do with being an enemy of the West and a lot with actually practicing the (western!) value of tolerence and respect for cultural diversity, at least whithin reasonable limits.

What then were you trying to say? It was either a complete non sequitur (but then why quote by clicking the reply button?) or it was a direct reply and therefor an insinuation (rather than an open statement) that this is what you assume I think. And that, I'm sorry, is blatently false.

There are more than three civilizations and there are more than two positions on this supposed war of civilizations you are so often referring to. There are very few marxists left in the world. I am most definitely not one of them. I have one or two marxist friends who can vouch for that

Basically, my position here is very close to Marmie's, so there is no need to repeat it

Instead I want to add one more thing about your claim about the radical left. While the radical left (that I do not consider myself a part of) in, say, France or Spain tends to side with the Palastinians against Israel (partially because the underpriviledged in the French and Spanish society are often of Arabic origin and they see it as a form of post colonialist struggle of rich vs poor) and therefor feels a certain solidarity with what they see as a cultural circle suffering from poverty and both inside and outside repression, much of that rooting in or fostered by the West and its history and pilicies, the radical left in Germany is more or less evenly split between those who share their Mediterranean friend's position that this is David vs Goliath and those who say that if you are on the left, you are anti-fascist and if you are anti-fascist you support Israel and if you support Israel, Islam is your enemy. So there is a considerable fraction in the German radical left that is very strongly and violently anti-Islam.

Just for your information.

I myself, both with the war of civilizations and with Palastine, refuse to clearly take sides because I see too many factors and too many shades of grey but strongly resent anybody trying to push me one way or the other or, worst of all, putting me into a box that doesn't fit.

Which is what you seem to have done.

I support liberal democracy because it is based on the limitation of power.

And I support Islamic liberal democracy, if I could find it. But so far I have not been able to find any Islamic liberal democracy.

Of course there are some individual muslims who support liberal democracy, but so far, not Islam itself.

And I also support the liberal democratic Left.

But I don't support Islam because it is based on the maximisation of power. And I don't support the marxist Left because it is also based on the maximisation of power.

Violence and anti-semitism are anathema to liberal democracy, and it is violence and anti-semitism I see in Islam and the marxist Left.

 

[Coriolis]

Studies show people are often prone to answering with that.

Familiarity with the phenomenon does not seem sufficient to render one immune from it.

 

[copperfish17]

I say let the religious schools do their thing... none of my kids (if I choose to have any in the first place) are going anywhere near those schools though.

That morals cannot exist without religion or that religious people are more likely to be moral than your average atheist/agnostic is sham. Personally, I think the true basis/source of morality is empathy, which most people are born with, apparently. Look up "empathy gene."

 

[Agent Jelly]

I think a moment of silence to pray is appropriate. I however do not think a mandatory prayer time is. Religious schools should have free reign, but public schools I think should have a moment of silence.

 

[redacted]

The problem with optional prayer time is that it just sets up a divide between those who pray and those who don't.

I say keep it away from schools overall.

 

[Lateralus]

I recently had a discussion with a friend regarding this hot potato, but what do you think of having a mandatory few minutes of prayer in school?
Personally, I am a supporter of this, if you go to a religious school. I believe we get many of our good morals from religion. This means that if children of atheistic parents have no contact with religion in their formative years there's a very high risk of them growing up to become antisocial individuals with dangerous values,

Except this isn't true. Morality is a human construct transmitted through culture, friends, family, etc. Religion has tried to hijack the concept of morality, claiming ownership of it, and many gullible people have fallen for it.

 

[Habba]

Atheists have to ask themselves about what is morally right. Believers need only to ask their superiors about what is moral. This teaches atheists empathy and obediance to belivers.

 

[FDG]

If it's a religious school, then I think it's fair to let people pray, I suppose parents purposefully place their children in a religious school because they want them to be influenced by said ideology. Of course I think it shouldn't be istitutionalized in non-religious schools (but again if a kid wants to pray during break time, that's his choice).

I believe we get many of our good morals from religion.

The arrow of causation is more likely to flow in the opposite direction, IMHO. Many traditionally religious practices were created out of what humans considered as acceptable / ideal in their society.

 

[Stigmata]

I wouldn't be opposed to a mandatory allotted period of time in which prayer could be done as long as it's not ever formally acknowledged as anything specifically for prayer. Basically a 5-10 minute period of silence to which anyone can use however they saw fit as long as they weren't disturbing anyone else.

 

[Stigmata]

I believe we get many of our good morals from religion. This means that if children of atheistic parents have no contact with religion in their formative years there's a very high risk of them growing up to become antisocial individuals with dangerous values,

And this is exactly this biggest misconception held by most theists that atheism equates to a lack of morality, or in some way morality in a byproduct of religion. It's also the reason there's such a social stigma against publicly proclaiming yourself as atheist or agnostic. If anything, I see someone who developed a sense of morality as a result of being religious as a fraud, being that the structure of religion stems from conformity and compliance based around heavy handed fear tactics as opposed to genuine altruistic motives. The two are in no way synonymous, and history has proved and will continue to prove that time and time again.

 

[Ginkgo]

Lack of enforcing prayer =/= Enforcing lack of prayer.

 

[Ginkgo]

And this is exactly this biggest misconception held by most theists that atheism equates to a lack of morality, or in some way morality in a byproduct of religion. It's also the reason there's such a social stigma against publicly proclaiming yourself as atheist or agnostic. If anything, I see someone who developed a sense of morality as a result of being religious as a fraud, being that the structure of religion stems from conformity and compliance based around heavy handed fear tactics as opposed to genuine altruistic motives. The two are in no way synonymous, and history has proved and will continue to prove that time and time again.

It's also the reason why the religious authorities who hold such misconceptions enforce prayer. If giving children the freedom to choose how they spend their moments of silence compromises their moral integrity in the eyes of their religion, then any child who doesn't pray is seen as a threat to their homogeneous atmosphere. If the homogeneous atmosphere is thought to be judged by a higher authority such as the Judeo-Christian god, then the issue is no longer seen as a simple personal dispute between the fundies and those who opt out of prayer, but an unearthly "Good vs Evil" battle in which the Christians must win in the eyes of God, rather than respect others as they would want to respected.

 

[Totenkindly]

I wouldn't be opposed to a mandatory allotted period of time in which prayer could be done as long as it's not ever formally acknowledged as anything specifically for prayer. Basically a 5-10 minute period of silence to which anyone can use however they saw fit as long as they weren't disturbing anyone else.

We do have that already. It's called "study hall" (and/or lunch/recess).

 

[figsfiggyfigs]

They should have a prayer room in every school for those who WANT to pray.

 

[rav3n]

Can of worms, YW. Should there also be a navel-gazing room? Or an imagination room? How about a drop your pants room?