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  1. #21
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    I've grown up and been immersed in Christianity since I was born. I've heard many schools of thought within the religion and not just one person or one group's teachings.

    Would you mind explaining to me where I'm wrong?

    P.S. a "God of the Clouds" wasn't meant to be taken literally... Nor was "a lake of fire". I know many of these illustrations are figurative. You get my point though. Maybe?
    You speak of damnation, being less of a person as a result of human doubt and punishment, this isnt God or Christianity or Christ's teaching in my experience at all.

    The whole of the life, death and teaching of Jesus should in fact resonate with you if what you say is the case and its pretty tailored to you, there's lots of accounts of doubt, not least of which Thomas how had to examine the crucifixion wounds before he would be convinced of the resurrection but plenty of people doubted Jesus' divinity or the existence of an afterlife, repeatedly he is asked about that by the religious authorities who want to portray him as some kind of mad vagrant, again and again the message is that no one can believe even what they've witnessed with their own eyes and in person.

    So I very much doubt that Christians or Christ would judge you "less of a person" or deserving of damnation and punishment for those sentiments. In fact I find that simultaneously incredible and all to probable. I'm sorry that's your view.

  2. #22
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm not sure who does and doesnt go to heaven, I know if he's highly resistant to the idea of heaven he wont go there, same as if there's anywhere you totally detest the idea of going you simply wont go there.

    What do you mean by accepts Jesus as his personal lord and saviour? What does that look like? I'm not interested in semantics, sophistry and word play if that's what you're imagining here, Beat or anyone else is free to believe whatever they want and I'm not aiming to change that.
    Believing simply what you want to believe negates authenticity... If it were just a matter of trusting because I "want" to believe, I'd be one hell of a Christian right now. I am not capable of doing that.

  3. #23
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah, I can see it, for centuries mankind has been conned by wily bad guys fooling them with religion, come on, you've got to be kiddding me?
    They didn't have to be bad guys to create these stories and myths, people desperately wanted the answers they provided, and still do.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    Believing simply what you want to believe negates authenticity... If it were just a matter of trusting because I "want" to believe, I'd be one hell of a Christian right now. I am not capable of doing that.
    The first part of this sentence I understand, its a statement of fact, the second part I dont.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    They didn't have to be bad guys to create these stories and myths, people desperately wanted the answers they provided, and still do.
    So basically, like I said before, people are saps. I'm surprised how you have escaped the net, must feel sort of special to be the one true possessor of truth huh? Imagine how history would have played out if there had been more like you

  6. #26
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The first part of this sentence I understand, its a statement of fact, the second part I dont.
    What don't you understand about it?

  7. #27
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    What don't you understand about it?
    I dont know what you're not capable of and I dont know why you should be capable of it.

    Just while I'm talking to you I'd like to say that these discussions are difficult sometimes because people come to them with all their previous experiences, its not always the case that there's a "shared language" or "common concepts" for conducting the discussion.

    I'm not trying to be clever or out wit you or anything asking those questions, just not sure what you mean, although I dont agree with you're earlier representation of Christianity, it could well be your own personal lived experience.

    I'll check this thread when I get a chance in a day or two, I'm working a shift tommorrow and have to get up early and will be back late but thanks for posting.

  8. #28
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    So basically, like I said before, people are saps. I'm surprised how you have escaped the net, must feel sort of special to be the one true possessor of truth huh? Imagine how history would have played out if there had been more like you
    Millions have escaped the net! Get with the times.

  9. #29
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think most of the ritual and worship are about preserving and transmiting knowledge between acolytes and novices or generations, its only a jumping off point for actual spiritual experience and as a result, for those unattuned to or uninclined to spiritual experience or even those OCD about the rituals themselves are not going to experience anything.

    .....

    The best spiritual practices I've discovered have been in small books which not all churches circulate and are more historical reference now, like The Interior Castle, The Imitation of Christ, Dark Night of The Soul, Practicing The Prescence of God and The Devout Life.

    The last two are probably the best, the others are good in terms of considering how to pray but I think relate more to introversion, I'd say I also find the different rules adopted by monastaries, such as the rule of benedict, the rule of Francis, the rule of Augustine, some of which anyone can practice.
    You seem to say that worship is valuable because it's a way of sharing the religion. But how is, for example, praying by yourself an act of sharing the religion?
    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    I can't imagine that a god would need our worship to feel validated or secure. I also feel no compulsion to worship, even if I was totally convinced there was a God.
    Right, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. In that situation, could you justifiably call yourself "religious"? Or at that point, is it just your own private philosophy, which happens to have a theory constructed like a certain religion?
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  10. #30
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Smile The Sacred and the Profane

    The marriage ceremony contains the words, "I thee worship". So worship is as natural within marriage as within synagogue, church, mosque or temple.

    However we live in a secular world so we must look for secular forms of worship.

    Unfortunately secular forms of worship do look profane, such as the worship of the dollar, the worship of the motor car, the worship of gurus and celebrities, and the worship of nature.

    But the impulse to worship won't be denied, even by secularism.

    Secularism has emptied our churches and filled our movie houses and kept us watching TV. So we worship movie stars and TV personalities.

    We need to worship as we need to eat and procreate.

    But 'worship' has become a dirty word - we call a judge, "your Worship" - and so worship has passed from our view and is off our radar screens.

    And being invisible worship has become even more powerful. It's inchoate and permeates our quotidian lives.

    And permeating our everyday lives, worship has become profane.

    But we still remember, at the edge of our minds, that worship was once sacred.

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