User Tag List

First 678

Results 71 to 79 of 79

  1. #71
    Sniffles
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    so how is this any less cheapening then when the ORIGINAL (read: catholic) Church usurped pagan holidays to make Christianity more accessible?

    If you celebrate Christmas, yet dislike these books, it sounds somewhat hypocritical doesn't it? Isn't hijacking pagan holidays a cheapening of the holy words???
    Nice set of loaded questions you have there.

    Ever heard of the concept of inculturation, where the message of Christ becomes part of the local culture of a people?

    This has been so ever since the days of the Apostles, with Pentecost and later the Council in Jerusalem which declared that Gentile Christians need not adhere to Hebrew customs like circumsicision.

    Pope Gregory the Great declared that any cultural custom that didn't contradict Christian doctrine was to be included.

    Now was this all just a political ploy, as many here are trying to argue? Well you could argue that; but as Richard Fletcher notes in The Barbarian Conversion: From Paganism to Christianity, to do so would mean projecting modern cynicism unto the past - when religious claims were very serious business.

    This is especially true since a major justification for why many pagan customs were maintained after Christianization was because they bore a strong resemblence to the folk customs of the Israelites in the Old Testament.

    It also ignores the important theology behind such practices. Pope John Paul II summarised it as such in his Slavorum Apostoli, commenting on the evangelizing efforts of Ss. Cyril and Methodius, and the model they set for evangelizing cultures in general:

    "The Gospel does not lead to the impoverishment or extinction of those things which every individual, people and nation and every culture throughout history recognizes and brings into being as goodness, truth and beauty. On the contrary, it strives to assimilate and to develop all these values: to live them with magnanimity and joy and to perfect them by the mysterious and ennobling light of Revelation."


    This is in accordance with the claim set forth by St. Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century about how grace does not negate nature, but rather transforms it. Same logic applies to cultures.

    As GK Chesterton noted, one does not cease to be human when one becomes Christian. Humans love festivels, pagan or Christian. And of course the chief boast of Christian Europe is that it is built on top of pagan Europe - particularly Greece and Rome. You might as well say our legs are of pagan origins too.

    That's all I have to say.

  2. #72
    Sniffles
    Guest

    Default

    Now concerning John Wycliffe. I already mentioned the fact that an English Bible existed under Alfred the Great. Not only that, throughout Europe there was a general tendency to use the vernacular more after about 1250, in both secular and religious institutions.

    I can call upon the example of the Polish archbishop Jakob Swinka, who at the end of the 13th century called upon sermons and services to be conducted more and more in the Polish language, since the German Fransicans didn't understand the local language.

    As for Wycliffe; he was not condemned by the Inquisition, and when his followers were summoned for trial - most either recanted or received light punishments.

    Interestingly enough, one major reason why the Church condemned Wycliffe's Bible was because of its many errors of translation.

  3. #73
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    And it was equally spiritually empty back then, IMHO, as it was a political move to convert more people.
    I wasn't arguing otherwise (except I would describe it as spiritually neutral), I was explaining why I think these bibles inspire such discontent with most Christians (I'm an agnostic, though a cultural Protestant). As for the rest, I don't think that the Christians were any less nice (and were often more nice) than the pagans surrounding them, but they were more cohesive as a side-effect of practicing a universalist religion, while those practicing pagan religions were disunited (militarily and otherwise) as a side effect of practicing particularlist religions.

  4. #74
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    2,967

    Default

    In my opinion the bottom line is that there exist certain natural laws. Break those laws and you suffer. Follow those laws and you grow. This applies to individuals and humankind as well.

    Whatever calls a human to learning this lesson is valuable and arguing about it obfuscates the underlying truth.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  5. #75
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    2,967

    Default

    So, Peguy, what do you think of my last post? Does that make sense?

    I know it's my usual global perspective. Is it absolutely necessary for a Christian to get the letter of the law down to the very detail?

    Is it a process of coming to an understanding through interacting with others?
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  6. #76
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,377

    Default

    I find it offensive that anyone would be offended by something like this. To me it looks like a case of literally judging a book by its cover.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
    http://www.revoltingvegetables.com

  7. #77
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,657

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I wasn't arguing otherwise (except I would describe it as spiritually neutral), I was explaining why I think these bibles inspire such discontent with most Christians (I'm an agnostic, though a cultural Protestant). As for the rest, I don't think that the Christians were any less nice (and were often more nice) than the pagans surrounding them, but they were more cohesive as a side-effect of practicing a universalist religion, while those practicing pagan religions were disunited (militarily and otherwise) as a side effect of practicing particularlist religions.
    I can understand why it is upsetting to them. As for the last part of your comment, I have no doubts that the pagans weren't the treehuggers they're sometimes made out to be, but they didn't set out to convert people and force beliefs upon others. On the contrary, most adapted to the practices of the region they invaded. It's sad that their customs and traditions were lost or 'adjusted' beyond recognition IMHO. It would be kind of ironic if the same were to happen to Christianity, but I doubt these books or the modern trends that surround them will make that happen.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  8. #78
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Socionics
    ????
    Posts
    3,665

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    It's not really a matter of mere disagreement with people. I get along quite well here with people of various belief systems. Just last night I was chatting with alcea rosea, who's a skeptic.
    Actually I'm lutheran. I'm sceptic about life and sceptic about religions but I wouldn't call my "religion" sceptic. I'm still lutheran and I do respect some of the traditions in my religion even if I'm not the best believer or the best in practicing my religion. I respect all religions and I do not judge people if they are religious or not.

  9. #79
    Sniffles
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alcea rosea View Post
    Actually I'm lutheran. I'm sceptic about life and sceptic about religions but I wouldn't call my "religion" sceptic. I'm still lutheran and I do respect some of the traditions in my religion even if I'm not the best believer or the best in practicing my religion. I respect all religions and I do not judge people if they are religious or not.
    I stand corrected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    So, Peguy, what do you think of my last post? Does that make sense?
    In many ways yes. The concept of natural law is found very much within the Christian tradition, especially via St. Thomas Aquinas.


    Is it absolutely necessary for a Christian to get the letter of the law down to the very detail?
    I would say no per se. My view is simply that a Christian should comprehend as much of the faith as they are intellectually capable of. Some people are more gifted concerning the details, other are more gifted concerning the big picture.

Similar Threads

  1. Paris Hilton's New Best Friend
    By Mole in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 64
    Last Post: 05-02-2008, 06:58 AM
  2. Old friends, New friends, Lifestyles
    By FDG in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-30-2007, 08:15 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO