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  1. #41
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    So don't check the system to itself, check it to reality?

    It sounds like you agree with me but I'm not quite sure.
    Yes the factual information that comprises the axioms for your system must derive from the external world.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  2. #42
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I'm not certain of the types engaged in such conversations where the system comes under fire for it's lack of sticking to expected parameters but your definitions seem sound to me.

    I recall a conversation between myself and an INTJ where he was arguing that a system was floored by measuring it's success or failure by internal structure alone where as I noted to him that it did work in practice and therefore had use even if it's internal structure was not ideal. I think it was the 3rd/3.5 ed of D&D level structure which started that argument.
    Delphyne had an interesting point. Ni doms tend to see the environment in terms of how it relates to them. For this reason they often confuse their world of imagination with the real world.

    Extroverted perception takes the external environment for granted and is concerned with understanding the external reality first and foremost.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  3. #43
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I was going to start out with "WHAT?" but I then realised that although your point is different to mine it's also very true.

    I was thinking more in terms of arguing about how the system's pattern is valid or not measuring it's success or faliure by whether it meets up with what people expect or not without recourse to finding out whether it works in real terms, ie by seeing if it does help people communicate and see how other kinds of thinking works.
    OH! Okay, I see. Well, I do see that... measuring it against expectations rather than how it works practically would be an error. MBTI does have it's uses on the macro scale, regardless of whether it can describe any individual perfectly, and this should not be overlooked.
    Your point, if I read it right, is more that people start with a few pointers and then assume that the rest of the pattern fits or persuade people by altering how they read things so that whatever they observe fits. You're quite correct that this is logically wrong.. well unless you include inductive logic.
    Yes, that was it.
    Personally I'd say that a certain amount of such pattern prediction is necessary as no person ever really matches up to any description perfectly and some margin of contradiction is only to be expected. However the amount of contradiction is a factor and if a person consistently contradicts their type then there is reasonable grounds to doubt that they are that type.

    In combination with this I'd also personally say that it is necessary to try to predict the rest of the pattern as a hypothesis to allow us to compare what we expect with what occurs, there by highlighting any areas of divergence.
    Well, yes... MBTI couldn't be used any other way. I'm just pointing this out for the sake of saying that people shouldn't jump to conclusions, and then have everyone jump on board and rationalize why this might be true, without actually questioning why it might not be true or reasonably considering any alternative ideas. I've experienced a lot of times when people would do that, and then get dismissive (possibly even angrily accusing me of being closed-minded) when I point out a contradiction and suggest another idea.

  4. #44
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Yes the factual information that comprises the axioms for your system must derive from the external world.
    This I would agree with. The crux of the issue lies more in how far can you progress from these origional axioms without checking for consistancy with the factual information?

    Extrapolation leads to compound errors the further you extrapolate without error checking.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #45
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I'm just pointing this out for the sake of saying that people shouldn't jump to conclusions, and then have everyone jump on board and rationalize why this might be true, without actually questioning why it might not be true or reasonably considering any alternative ideas. I've experienced a lot of times when people would do that, and then get dismissive (possibly even angrily accusing me of being closed-minded) when I point out a contradiction and suggest another idea.
    Just add to your signature something like the sentiment I used to have "If I have to say each time that this is my present thinking and not a certainty or a fixed answer, just my current understanding, then each post would be three pages long".

    I guess it's just a matter of people getting used to you being more matter of fact than most. They should meet some of the people I hang out with
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #46
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    The MBTI isn't what matters--it's just a tool created to help people gain access to a tool that helps people make constructive use of differences. I use the theory to help people resolve conflicts, heal wounds, and help all children succeed.

    But what I wrote about Myers and Briggs is true.

    Whether psychometricians believe in the instrument has nothing to do with whether, in the hands of a capable facilitator, one can help people get along.
    I think it is to your credit that you use theory to help people resolve conflicts, heal wounds, and help all children to succeed.

    And perhaps I am just being pedantic by focusing on the history of MBTi.

    However I am aware that theory guides action. For instance I am aware that the theory of Marxism, over 70 years and across the world, led to the death of 100 million of their own people. And I am aware that the Myth of the Noble Savage has led to the continuation of child sexual abuse and the murder of tribal women.

    On the other hand I am aware that the political theory of Liberal Democracy has led to the limitation of power and what we call political freedom.

    And I am also aware that the modern economic theory of Adam Smith has led to the overcoming of scarcity for the first time in human history.

    So it seems to me that theory can have good and bad effects.

    So when I examine MBTI, I see it was copied from Carl Jung who failed his own Analysis with Sigmund Freud and who volunteered to collaborate with the NAZI Party and who abused his female patients. And after WW II, Jung became a New Age guru.

    And although Mrs Briggs and her daughter had a college education, they had no qualifications in psychometrics.

    So my criticism of MBTI is two fold - first it doesn't work and second it reifies the psyche.

    However I do accept you want to help people understand individual differences. And so do I.

    Even yours and mine.

  7. #47
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    Victor, if you strip the MBTI-derived-type-system down to the functional elements, you don't even need to worry about who developed it. It's simply a system for categorizing people. If you categorize enough people, you can study, then generalize them to whatever degree you want.

    When people start to include assessments not based on the original categorization (such as function order), things can very easily go haywire.

  8. #48
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Victor, if you strip the MBTI-derived-type-system down to the functional elements, you don't even need to worry about who developed it. It's simply a system for categorizing people. If you categorize enough people, you can study, then generalize them to whatever degree you want.

    When people start to include assessments not based on the original categorization (such as function order), things can very easily go haywire.
    I didn't know that was a later add on... interesting. I'd always wondered why if ESFJ is supposed to be part of INTP that the function order also showed ENTJ/INTJ and ISFP/ESFP too. I mean where the text about this third and fourth element to the INTP psyche?


    @Victor,
    Who started an idea is irrelevant to whether an idea is good or not. If you don't like Jung, fair enough, but what does that have to do with whether the MBTI is useful or not.

    Note I reject the idea of ideas being "valid" or not. Most evaluations as such are mere arrogance.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I didn't know that was a later add on... interesting. I'd always wondered why if ESFJ is supposed to be part of INTP that the function order also showed ENTJ/INTJ and ISFP/ESFP too. I mean where the text about this third and fourth element to the INTP psyche?
    MBTI was supposedly based on Jung's function study. I meant that you don't have to know that, and it might be better if you don't. I think they went way too far with implying (For an INTP) Ti-Ne-Si-Fe based on preferring solitude, imagination, hard-heartedness, and laziness. They're not necessarily tied together. I thought that's what you were getting at earlier.

  10. #50
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    This article illustrates the problem quite well, but I wonder if Functional Analysis is worth anything to begin with.

    J/P = problem

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