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Thread: Ambiverts!

  1. #31
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    OK; I'll stick with the dark, single frame version!
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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  2. #32
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I've been trying to extend the concept of "ambiversion" to come up with an 81 Type system, which would basically combine MBTI with both Five Temperament Theory (which is based on moderate scales) and Enneagram. I had put up a preliminary model that excluded the functions (which I had not fully learned yet), but always did want it to use the functions.

    The way it works, is stating with expressed and wanted behavior (e/w) in both Inclusion and control, which equates to Interaction Style. So the four factors are E/I (eI), Directing/Informing (wI), Cooperative/Pragmatic (eC) and Structure-Motive (wC).

    So to get from 64 types to 81 types; instead of just two poles, you add a moderate score. So between E and I is A, for instance. Where it gets difficult is the fact that the other three factors don't neatly correspond to S/N, T/F and J/P. But just using moderate scores between E/I, D/Inf, C/U and Str/M, you end up with nine temperaments and nine Interaction Styles. These then make neat correspondences with Enneagram sp and so areas (I believe the variants should be mixed types).
    So if ISTJ was a pure Melancholy 5so/sp, ESTJ is a Choleric Melancholy 8so5sp, then ASTJ would be inbetween Melancholy and Choleric socially, which the 1 seems to fit into, thus 1so5sp. Since the other three factors besides E/A/I all use the other three dichotomies in a very intertwined way, it is more tricky to change the other factors. And the functions are even worse.

    So what I was trying to do was list all of the possible "X" combinations as far as what they would mean for the functions.

    X--- (A---) Dominant Function is ambiverted (both e and i="a")
    -X-- Prefer both S and N (Pe/i)
    --X- (We can call it "Y") Prefer both T and F (Je/i)
    ---X (We can call it "Z") both preferred functions are extraverted

    Some examples:
    ASTJ Se/i-Te (Sa-Te)
    AXTJ Se/i&Ne/i-Te (Pa-Te)
    ASYJ Te/i&Fe/i-Si (Ja-Si)
    ASTZ -Se&Te- (?a-Je Here it starts to get conflicting)
    EXYJ Se&Ne/Te&Fe- (Pe/Je-)
    EXTZ Te&Se/Ne- (Te&Pe-)
    ESYZ Se/Te/Fe-

    It seems such an interesting idea, but then, I just get mentally exhuausted and put it aside. I imagine that is Te work, and I can only stick with it for a limited time, until the framework breaks down, and then it's no fun anymore.
    Anybody out there want to take a crack at these: AXYJ (xxxJ), AXTZ (xxTx), ASYZ (xSxx), EXYZ (Exxx), AXYZ (xxxx)?
    I feared Mondo had opened up the door for this kind of thinking when he introduced the idea of dynamic type.

    If you want me to offer my version of this, I guess I'll play too. Presuming I believed in dynamic type (which I am not saying I do one way or the other, I'm just accepting the assumption for the purposes of description), this is how I would go:

    I/A/E (Introverted, Ambiverted, Extraverted)

    N/R/S (iNtuitive, Realist, Sensor)

    F/B/T (Feeling, Balanced, Thinking)

    J/M/P (Judging, Malleable, Perceiving)

    Thus (as examples using I-N-F-J as the potential statics in each position, and assuming Dominant, Auxiliary, Tertiary, Inferior ordering):

    ARBM -- Xx, Xx, Xx, Xx (Everything is subject to change completely, although the functions are in an unknowable specific pattern at any given moment. Worst case scenario.)

    IRBM -- Xi, Xe, Xi, Xe (Well, the I/E is static... everything else is dynamic.)

    INBM -- Xi, Xe [N], Xi, Xe [S] (We know one in the first block is N, and one in the second block is S, but we don't know what kind or where... and it can change.)

    INFM -- Xi, Xe [NF], Xi Xe [ST] (We now know this is an INF with an EST shadow. However, the functions are subject to change, except that the first block contains some form of Feeling and Intuition, and the second block contains some form of Thinking and Sensing.)

    ARBJ -- Xx, Xx [Je Pi], Xx, Xx [Ji Pe] (We only know that this type has Extraverted Judgment and Introverted perception in the first block, and Introverted Judgment and Extroverted perception in the second block.)

    IRBJ -- Pi, Je, Ji, Pe (This is an IJ type. They use some form of Introverted perception as a dominant function, and some form of Extroverted Judgment as an Auxiliary. The specifics are subject to change.)

    INBJ -- Ni, Je, Ji, Se (This is an INJ type. They use Ni and have inferior Se, and use some kind of Aux. Extroverted judgement and Tertiary Introverted Judgment that is subject to change.

    ARFJ -- Xx, Xx [Fe] Xx, Xx [Ti]. (This type uses Fe in the first block and has a Ti shadow somewhere in the second block, however the specific location and accompanying functions are subject to change.)

    IRFJ -- Pi Fe Ti Pe (This is an IFJ type. They have some Introverted perception as dominant, Fe auxiliary and Ti tertiary, and then Extraverted perception as a shadow.)

    ANFJ -- Xx, Xx [Ni Fe] Xx, Xx [Ti Se] (This is an NFJ type. They have either Ni or Fe as dominant, and the other as auxiliary, but which is subject to change. The same applies to their shadow.)

    ANBM -- Xx, Xx [N] Xx, Xx [S] (I/E not static, otherwise same as INBM.)

    ARFM -- Xx, Xx [F] Xx, Xx [T] (J/P not static, otherwise same as ARFJ. Somewhere in first block is Fe or Fi, somewhere in second is Ti or Te. Exact position subject to change.)

    Anyway, this should give you an idea of what we've opened up here with permitting dynamic type... we need to use these models to figure out which functions are possible for each position with each letter of certainty. I don't want to try it with every letter combination, of course.

    This complexity, unfortunately, does not mean such dynamic type isn't the case, however. Some people may have significantly higher degrees of neuroplasticity than others, and this may be the best they can do.

    Do you see how annoyingly complicated this makes things?

  3. #33
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Wow, interesting! I'll have to take some time to digest that one.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  4. #34
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    I don't think that would work.
    That destroys the whole idea of personality type..

    I think everyone has a main introverted function and a main extraverted function... and it's possible for both to play a strong role but that's it!
    MBTI Type: iNTj
    Enneagram Type: 3w4 sp/sx

  5. #35
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    I don't think that would work.
    That destroys the whole idea of personality type..

    I think everyone has a main introverted function and a main extraverted function... and it's possible for both to play a strong role but that's it!
    I agree that it probably wouldn't work that well in most cases, I'm just showing how it could be extended if you really wanted to take it that far.

    So, you believe that only swapping the order and thus the I/E letter dynamically is reasonable, and that other swaps would not work, correct?

  6. #36
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I agree that it probably wouldn't work that well in most cases, I'm just showing how it could be extended if you really wanted to take it that far.

    So, you believe that only swapping the order and thus the I/E letter dynamically is reasonable, and that other swaps would not work, correct?
    Yea, that's all I think that could possibly work.
    With all the other crazy combinations, who needs personality type?
    MBTI Type: iNTj
    Enneagram Type: 3w4 sp/sx

  7. #37
    To the top of the world arcticangel02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Then I guess it's time to look up Si, then, Eh?
    I know, but the theory is sometimes hard to get my head around without examples. It makes sense, that is, but I have no idea how it might actually play out in real life. And extraverted functions are so much easier to spot and recognise. :P

    As far as my type, I think I've come to decide that I'm a MBTI ENFP (as in Ne is my dominant function), but a Kiersey INFP (behaviourally, I'm generally fairly quiet and not talkative). People tire me out if it's a fully Se-based conversation, especially in large groups, but energise me like nothing else if I can go one-on-one and have an intense, Ne-based conversation (which is usually my most talkative). I tend to get a little lethargic and restless when I'm by myself for too long, unless I have some project in which I'm totally involved... but it doesn't de-energise me drastically. I'm pretty sure it doesn't energise me, though. It's a bit difficult to say with my attention span - boredom and restlessness may be a result of simple boredom, as opposed to being de-energised by being alone. It's hard to tell.

    So, extravert, introvert or ambivert? I seem to sit comfortably in the middle, and at different times I am either extraverted or introverted. I am certainly either a weak extravert or a weak introvert, but which is very hard to say. Maybe ambivert is just a convenient description. :P
    ANFP:
    Extraversion (52%) ---- Introversion (48%)
    Sensing (26%) ---- iNtuition (74%)
    Thinking (16%) ---- Feeling (84%)
    Judging (5%) ---- Perceiving (95%)

    9w1 so/sx/sp

  8. #38
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    For a very long time, I have been trying to figure out if I lead with Ti or Ne. It's hard to tell by descriptions alone because it's not something concrete that I notice about myself. It's something I'm unaware of, for the most part. It's a natural process that I don't have to put much effort into, therefore I don't later remember what I did. When I take that one popular cognitive functions test, the Ti, Ne, and Ni scores are always really high - often within a point or two of each other. That is NOT an accurate way to find out, because if I had answered just one crappy question wrong, it would have thrown everything off. There's only a small number of questions and all them can interpreted in hundreds of different ways, ect, ect, ect...

    Is there another way to find out? A better site? A better test? You'd have to ask me specific questions about general things. For example, if you ask me if I put on deodorant today, I would easily say yes. But if you ask me how many times I slid it back and forth under each arm, or what I was thinking of at that precise moment in time, I'd have no idea. When I go for a walk alone, am I engaging in Ti or Ne? Who knows!?? I was just doing my thing!

    Am I writing this post through the use of my Ne or my Ti? Neither? Both? What?!?! There's GOT to be a better way to figure this out, and if there's not, I will create one.
    "When a resolute young fellow steps up the great bully, the world, and takes him boldly by the beard, he is often surprised to find that it comes off in his hand, and that it was only tied on to scare away the timid adventurers." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

  9. #39
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    ARFJ --
    This is the type of all well-behaved dogs.
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

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  10. #40
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    I like it! So much in fact that I think I have settled on a 4-letter type.
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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