Elfboy's theory on the Light Worker, the Dark Worker and Objectivism

[Elfboy]

Sometimes pathetic lives aren't even our choice. Some people are born deformed, retarded, depressed, extremely poor, etc.. Some lose their professions and livelihood.. and even just get violently killed..for no reason whatsoever. Great achievers, on the level you're talking about, are a huge exception to the rule - and even then, few are remembered anyways. And the ones that are remembered get their history and contribution distorted. You mention MLK Jr. - but hardly anyone actually reads about him. And relatively few care to listen to the ones who do. People would rather just claim his name for whatever random cause of their own. As time goes on, it gets even more ridiculous - look at Thomas Jefferson, for example. He's every patriotic American's best friend. Or better yet, Jesus of Nazareth.

I should probably offer something positive here, but I'm not sure what atm.

- people who lose their livelihood can get another job
- depressed people can take medication, go through therapy or
- poor people can become successful if they're motivated enough and willing to do what it takes to succeed
people need to take responsibility for their lives. retarded and deformed people are a different story, but the 3 things above are under the control of the individual. everyone has problems in life, it doesn't mean they have to stay that way. I'm not directing this at you personally, but if people are too weak to solve their own problems, they deserve to suffer.

 

[Elfboy]

Why, then, do you not theorize yourself into the role of a royal prince? Clearly that would motivate the hell out of you.

I DO treat myself like royalty I may not be the most successful, the most intelligent or the most sexually attractive person in the world, but I love myself unconditionally and will always treat myself well (usually I treat others well too, but that's a different topic). just because other people are ashamed of being alive and need the outside world to justify their existence doesn't mean I need do

 

[Nicodemus]

I DO treat myself like royalty I may not be the most successful, the most intelligent or the most sexually attractive person in the world, but I love myself unconditionally and will always treat myself well (usually I treat others well too, but that's a different topic). just because other people are ashamed of being alive and need the outside world to justify their existence doesn't mean I need do

So you want to motivate others - competitors, that is?

 

[Elfboy]

So you want to motivate others - competitors, that is?

it's not on my top priority list, but yes, I do enjoy motivating and encouraging people. iron sharpens iron as the saying goes

 

[chickpea]

- people who lose their livelihood can get another job
- depressed people can take medication, go through therapy or
- poor people can become successful if they're motivated enough and willing to do what it takes to succeed
people need to take responsibility for their lives. retarded and deformed people are a different story, but the 3 things above are under the control of the individual. everyone has problems in life, it doesn't mean they have to stay that way. I'm not directing this at you personally, but if people are too weak to solve their own problems, they deserve to suffer.

you're so naive.

 

[Elfboy]

you're so naive.

I'm naive because I believe in personal responsibility? don't be ridiculous. the world is not this big communal family that I have a responsibility to take care of. it's full of grown adults who should be able to deal with their own problems and take responsibility for their own actions. I'm not naive at all, it's called stoicism. are you saying you want me to become nihilistic and spend my time feelings guilty for children in Africa? do that if you want. but I'd like to enjoy my life. you should try providing some actual evidence or reasons behinds your accusations and insults as opposed to resorting 100% to ad hominem. -sigh- silly F doms

 

[chickpea]

I'm naive because I believe in personal responsibility? don't be ridiculous. the world is not this big communal family that I have a responsibility to take care of. it's full of grown adults who should be able to deal with their own problems and take responsibility for their own actions. I'm not naive at all, it's called stoicism. are you saying you want me to become nihilistic and spend my time feelings guilty for children in Africa? do that if you want. but I'd like to enjoy my life. you should try providing some actual evidence or reasons behinds your accusations and insults as opposed to resorting 100% to ad hominem. -sigh- silly F doms

silly ne-doms, you just got a paragraph out of my one sentence and completely misinterpreted what i meant. you're naive because you say things like "people who lose their livelihood can get another job" and "poor people can become successful if they're motivated enough and willing to do what it takes to succeed" when you have no idea what you're talking about. as far as i can tell, you've lived a pretty sheltered and privileged life and don't understand that for a lot of people it's not that simple. i wasn't asking you to help anyone, or even give a fuck. do you. just don't make stupid, misinformed assumptions that all people in bad situations are just lazy or not trying hard enough and expect nobody to call you out on it.

 

[Nicodemus]

are you saying you want me to become nihilistic and spend my time feeling[s] guilty for children in Africa?

This combination is new to me. Where do you see the connection?

 

[Elfboy]

silly ne-doms, you just got a paragraph out of my one sentence and completely misinterpreted what i meant. you're naive because you say things like "people who lose their livelihood can get another job" and "poor people can become successful if they're motivated enough and willing to do what it takes to succeed" when you have no idea what you're talking about. as far as i can tell, you've lived a pretty sheltered and privileged life and don't understand that for a lot of people it's not that simple. i wasn't asking you to help anyone, or even give a fuck. do you. just don't make stupid, misinformed assumptions that all people in bad situations are just lazy or not trying hard enough and expect nobody to call you out on it.

it's not as hard as people make it out to be. all you have to do if you are unemployed is move to a city with a better job market and find a job there. I'm doing so right now because the city I live in is a jobless pit and a $30,000 a year job is considered high pay for someone with a master's degree. if I can do it, why can't someone else? okay, you're right, I've never been poor, but that doesn't make me naive.

 

[chickpea]

it's not as hard as people make it out to be. all you have to do if you are unemployed is move to a city with a better job market and find a job there. I'm doing so right now because the city I live in is a jobless pit and a $30,000 a year job is considered high pay for someone with a master's degree. if I can do it, why can't someone else? okay, you're right, I've never been poor, but that doesn't make me naive.

because not everybody has the ability to just get up and leave where they are. you're still just putting this into the context of someone like you who has opportunities like that. a lot of people are born into poverty, their whole family is in poverty, they're born in one place and stay there their whole life because that's how it is and it's all they know. they can't uproot their lives, because they don't have the resources to do so, and everything/everyone they know is in the same place. you're not naive because you've never been poor, you're naive because you're blind to how being poor affects people. and you have no authority to speak on "it's not as hard as people make it out to be," because you've never experienced it or probably even seen it firsthand.

 

[Elfboy]

because not everybody has the ability to just get up and leave where they are. you're still just putting this into the context of someone like you who has opportunities like that. a lot of people are born into poverty, their whole family is in poverty, they're born in one place and stay there their whole life because that's how it is and it's all they know. they can't uproot their lives, because they don't have the resources to do so, and everything/everyone they know is in the same place. you're not naive because you've never been poor, you're naive because you're blind to how being poor affects people. and you have no authority to speak on "it's not as hard as people make it out to be," because you've never experienced it or probably even seen it firsthand.

if it's all they know, they should get more educated. and I don't mean they have to have to go college and get a PhD. knowing that their are other places in the country with better job markets is something that doesn't take a lot of time to learn. some of the most capitalist friends I have grew up in poverty, abuse and poor education. everyone has an individual brain and is capable of making independent decisions. and this is assuming no one helps them, when in reality, lots of people would want to help them.

 

[chickpea]

if it's all they know, they should get more educated. and I don't mean they have to have to go college and get a PhD. knowing that their are other places in the country with better job markets is something that doesn't take a lot of time to learn. some of the most capitalist friends I have grew up in poverty, abuse and poor education. everyone has an individual brain and is capable of making independent decisions. and this is assuming no one helps them, when in reality, lots of people would want to help them.

yeah, some of the most capitalist friends i have grew up in poverty, abuse and poor education too. they're called drug dealers. welcome to oakland, bitch.

 

[Elfboy]

yeah, some of the most capitalist friends i have grew up in poverty, abuse and poor education too. they're called drug dealers. welcome to oakland, bitch.

that's a different conversation, much more suitable for a "legalize marajuana" thread

 

[chickpea]

that's a different conversation, much more suitable for a "legalize marajuana" thread

i wasn't even talking about weed or legalizing drugs. i'm saying the most capitalist people growing up in shitty situations most likely aren't going to end up moving to another city to find a minimum-wage job, they're going to hustle and work with what they know.

 

[Elfboy]

i wasn't even talking about weed or legalizing drugs. i'm saying the most capitalist people growing up in shitty situations most likely aren't going to end up moving to another city to find a minimum-wage job, they're going to hustle and work with what they know.

I would argue that most of the drug dealers out there are not true capitalists. capitalists don't force people to buy their products, that's called coercion. to the drug dealers who don't do this, more power to'em.

 

[KDude]

because not everybody has the ability to just get up and leave where they are. you're still just putting this into the context of someone like you who has opportunities like that. a lot of people are born into poverty, their whole family is in poverty, they're born in one place and stay there their whole life because that's how it is and it's all they know. they can't uproot their lives, because they don't have the resources to do so, and everything/everyone they know is in the same place. you're not naive because you've never been poor, you're naive because you're blind to how being poor affects people. and you have no authority to speak on "it's not as hard as people make it out to be," because you've never experienced it or probably even seen it firsthand.

It's actually kind of funny, and not worth getting mad at him about. But it's like he'll only approach these issues from what it might be like within some small suburban context or something. I mean, there are elderly women in Morroco, for example, who gather up all their vegetables each morning, rotten and fresh alike, sit around in market squares all day, and maybe get a few customers at best. They have little means to mobilize and do better than this. It's just life for them. And has been for some regions for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. They're not going to college.. they're not going to be the next CEO of some new startup netflix competitor. They're not going to have super awesome clothes and be a snob about meaningless bullshit. They're not even going to have a minimum wage job cleaning toilets at the local McD's. It is NOT going to happen to them no matter what they wish or what some outsider with some trite "motivational speaker" schtick ever says to them. They are born to be screwed, relatively speaking. God isn't helping them, motivation isn't helping, their country isn't helping, other countries may help a tad by virtue of foreign aid.. if that.. but basically, this isn't an easily changeable situation

I've seen some of this in the west though too. Probably the worst I've witnessed was a bum in Houston digging through the garbage near a restaurant, and gorging on some raw guts they had thrown away. I almost puked. And just a few steps away from him was an old, legless, Vietnam veteran in a wheelchair, begging outside a store. These two guys were fucked, and nothing probably changed for them. This was years ago, but it would have taken a miracle if their fortunes changed.

Meh. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir. No one really needs to be reminded of things like this.

To get off that topic, I also think he simplifies some historical figures. Joan of Arc an icon for the altruistic side? You do know that she commanded armies and helped lead a war against England, right? Have you ever imagined what it'd be like to be in a battle circa 1400-1500? Whether she ever raised a sword herself, she was close enough to the carnage that she was almost mortally wounded herself. I get the image of a lot more tougher person than some dreamy altruistic saint.

Anyways.

 

[King sns]

if it's all they know, they should get more educated. and I don't mean they have to have to go college and get a PhD. knowing that their are other places in the country with better job markets is something that doesn't take a lot of time to learn. some of the most capitalist friends I have grew up in poverty, abuse and poor education. everyone has an individual brain and is capable of making independent decisions. and this is assuming no one helps them, when in reality, lots of people would want to help them.

you have no idea, clearly. You are in a lucky reality.

 

[King sns]

It's actually kind of funny, and not worth getting mad at him about. But it's like he'll only approach these issues from what it might be like within some small suburban context or something. I mean, there are elderly women in Morroco, for example, who gather up all their vegetables each morning, rotten and fresh alike, sit around in market squares all day, and maybe get a few customers at best. They have little means to mobilize and do better than this. It's just life for them. And has been for some regions for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. They're not going to college.. they're not going to be the next CEO of some new startup netflix competitor. They're not going to have super awesome clothes and be a snob about meaningless bullshit. They're not even going to have a minimum wage job cleaning toilets at the local McD's. It is NOT going to happen to them no matter what they wish or what some outsider with some trite "motivational speaker" schtick ever says to them. They are born to be screwed, relatively speaking. God isn't helping them, motivation isn't helping, their country isn't helping, other countries may help a tad by virtue of foreign aid.. if that.. but basically, this isn't an easily changeable situation

I've seen some of this in the west though too. Probably the worst I've witnessed was a bum in Houston digging through the garbage near a restaurant, and gorging on some raw guts they had thrown away. I almost puked. And just a few steps away from him was an old, legless, Vietnam veteran in a wheelchair, begging outside a store. These two guys were fucked, and nothing probably changed for them. This was years ago, but it would have taken a miracle if their fortunes changed.

Meh. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir. No one really needs to be reminded of things like this.

To get off that topic, I also think he simplifies some historical figures. Joan of Arc an icon for the altruistic side? You do know that she commanded armies and helped lead a war against England, right? Have you ever imagined what it'd be like to be in a battle circa 1400-1500? Whether she ever raised a sword herself, she was close enough to the carnage that she was almost mortally wounded herself. I get the image of a lot more tougher person than some dreamy altruistic saint.

Anyways.

this is actually beautifully well spoken... there are many unlucky situations, not only these. Sometimes there is just no choice but to survive.

 

[Elfboy]

It's actually kind of funny, and not worth getting mad at him about. But it's like he'll only approach these issues from what it might be like within some small suburban context or something. I mean, there are elderly women in Morroco, for example, who gather up all their vegetables each morning, rotten and fresh alike, sit around in market squares all day, and maybe get a few customers at best. They have little means to mobilize and do better than this. It's just life for them. And has been for some regions for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. They're not going to college.. they're not going to be the next CEO of some new startup netflix competitor. They're not going to have super awesome clothes and be a snob about meaningless bullshit. They're not even going to have a minimum wage job cleaning toilets at the local McD's. It is NOT going to happen to them no matter what they wish or what some outsider with some trite "motivational speaker" schtick ever says to them. They are born to be screwed, relatively speaking. God isn't helping them, motivation isn't helping, their country isn't helping, other countries may help a tad by virtue of foreign aid.. if that.. but basically, this isn't an easily changeable situation

I've seen some of this in the west though too. Probably the worst I've witnessed was a bum in Houston digging through the garbage near a restaurant, and gorging on some raw guts they had thrown away. I almost puked. And just a few steps away from him was an old, legless, Vietnam veteran in a wheelchair, begging outside a store. These two guys were fucked, and nothing probably changed for them. This was years ago, but it would have taken a miracle if their fortunes changed.

Meh. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir. No one really needs to be reminded of things like this.

To get off that topic, I also think he simplifies some historical figures. Joan of Arc an icon for the altruistic side? You do know that she commanded armies and helped lead a war against England, right? Have you ever imagined what it'd be like to be in a battle circa 1400-1500? Whether she ever raised a sword herself, she was close enough to the carnage that she was almost mortally wounded herself. I get the image of a lot more tougher person than some dreamy altruistic saint.

Anyways.

why would I spend time thinking about old women in Morocco? that's not gonna make me any goddamn money lol
people seem to think sitting around worrying about destitute countries makes them better people or something, but most of the people who DO make a difference in their lives are productive, enterprising people who met their own needs first and then help others later. when it comes to making a difference in the world (which I don't really care about doing anyway) it's not the thought that counts, it's action. other countries with different living situations aside, in America at least, if you are poor and don't do anything about it, it's your own damn fault. people just don't want to take responsibility for their actions and the results that ensue. no one is "born to be screwed" that's just defeatist rubbish. "If they'd rather die, they better do it, and decrease the surplus population" (Ebeneezer Scrooge)

 

[King sns]

why would I spend time thinking about old women in Morocco? that's not gonna make me any goddamn money lol
people seem to think sitting around worrying about destitute countries makes them better people or something, but most of the people who DO make a difference in their lives are productive, enterprising people who met their own needs first and then help others later. when it comes to making a difference in the world (which I don't really care about doing anyway) it's not the thought that counts, it's action. other countries with different living situations aside, in America at least, if you are poor and don't do anything about it, it's your own damn fault. people just don't want to take responsibility for their actions and the results that ensue. no one is "born to be screwed" that's just defeatist rubbish. "If they'd rather die, they better do it, and decrease the surplus population" (Ebeneezer Scrooge)

We're not questioning your blessed reality- we're making you aware of others realities. I'm actually enthralled by the lady in morocco whether it makes me a better person or not. It makes me a more grateful person, a more wealthy person. I can tell you that much. The more humble and grateful I am, the wealthier I am- that's my experience.