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  1. #11
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    sacrificing for others decreases your ability to help others in the future.
    for example, let's take a mother with a 9 month old baby. she decides she wants to serve her country and dies in an overseas war. because of her sacrifice, her 9 month old baby now has to grow up without a mother.
    another example. let's take a potential entrepreneur. brilliant, enterprising, hard working and industrious. he is thinking of launching a potentially million dollar business, but he instead decides to devout himself to become a catholic priest and take a vow of chastity instead. however, had he gone the business route, he could have helped himself more AND had millions of dollars more to help others. a rich man can snap his fingers and help more people than a volunteer worker can in their entire life.
    PS: nothing against the catholic church, but I think taking a vow of poverty is pretty whack
    Yeah...maybe. I do know that sacrificing doesn't always mean hurting yourself (or your abilities/potential) to help another; sometimes it's about not being selfish and/or setting a good example. Sometimes it's about realizing the never-ending futility of hate and giving someone the benefit of the doubt.

    Be careful of the business man approach. Such people would want you to believe they are doing good, but some of them make the world so competitive and stressful that our material gains are often at the cost of our mental well-being...even though this is always denied, of course. Some priests aren't sacrificing anything when they go into the church either; they just want to aid humanity and help people through the spiritual medium that religion helps influence. Money doesn't really exist, there's no whip telling you you have to live a life around it. It can bring comforts sure, but when you end up realizing all you do is compete and work, is it worth it?

    Just my opinion...but it's easier to bash the priest that goes against the normal order/understanding of the world than the business man that's supposedly doing everything 'right'. Compete, work hard, get rich, plan ahead always, endure the pain, and hope you don't die before the master plan all works...yeah, how about NO.

  2. #12
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Okay, actually we probably agree that military spending is out of control.

    Big military = big imposing presence in world...this can go right or wrong. It's right in that *most* people won't mess with you and also that you can help other people. The United States has long been known for helping people in other countries. Like our presence in WWII, which was the beginning, really, of the modern American attitude toward military and the world we see now. You do know that we gave aid to Afghanistan when the Soviet Union invaded them in 1979, rite? Funny how that particular thing worked out...

    But yeah, I'm not some person who thinks all military spending is warranted. In fact, I think some military spending actually needs to be re-directed in caring for the poor soldiers who come back injured and/or mentally ill from war, rather than spending so much money on guns, et al.
    I'm all for charity, but not via government, because the government didn't make that money. I pay taxes for roads to be built and schools maintained, not to help starving children in Africa. granted, that's a very noble cause for someone to be supporting, but government charity is indirectly forcing people to give their money to certain organizations as opposed to staying out of it and giving them the choice.
    PS: in regards to your last post and expanding on my reply to it, interdependence is the goal. "we don't need each other, but I want to help you, you want to help me and we can benefit from each other so let's work together". in essence, a legitimate business is an interdependent entity and something worth pursuing both by light workers and dark workers (though dark workers tend to show more of a preference for it)
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  3. #13
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    Yeah...maybe. I do know that sacrificing doesn't always mean hurting yourself (or your abilities/potential) to help another; sometimes it's about not being selfish and/or setting a good example. Sometimes it's about realizing the never-ending futility of hate and giving someone the benefit of the doubt.

    Be careful of the business man approach. Such people would want you to believe they are doing good, but some of them make the world so competitive and stressful that our material gains are often at the cost of our mental well-being...even though this is always denied, of course. Some priests aren't sacrificing anything when they go into the church either; they just want to aid humanity and help people through the spiritual medium that religion helps influence. Money doesn't really exist, there's no whip telling you you have to live a life around it. It can bring comforts sure, but when you end up realizing all you do is compete and work, is it worth it?

    Just my opinion...but it's easier to bash the priest that goes against the normal order/understanding of the world than the business man that's supposedly doing everything 'right'. Compete, work hard, get rich, plan ahead always, endure the pain, and hope you don't die before the master plan all works...yeah, how about NO.
    the distinction need be made between giving and sacrifice, not the same thing. also I agree about the stress thing. I want a high income to reduce my stress, not add to it. getting a lot of money is not worth it unless you know how to do so in a way that doesn't result in a largely stressful lifestyle
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  4. #14
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    Why is this your theory?

    Isn't it called the enneagram?

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I'm all for charity, but not via government, because the government didn't make that money. I pay taxes for roads to be built and schools maintained, not to help starving children in Africa. granted, that's a very noble cause for someone to be supporting, but government charity is indirectly forcing people to give their money to certain organizations as opposed to staying out of it and giving them the choice.
    PS: in regards to your last post and expanding on my reply to it, interdependence is the goal. "we don't need each other, but I want to help you, you want to help me and we can benefit from each other so let's work together". in essence, a legitimate business is an interdependent entity and something worth pursuing both by light workers and dark workers (though dark workers tend to show more of a preference for it)
    Regards to P.S.: People do need each other. It's why they've always lived in tribes, villages, cities, and nations. It's simple human nature. Even if the government were to dissolve, something that was essentially like government would rise in its place, either on an tribal level or a large scale corporate business level. Getting rid of government isn't going to get rid of the human tendency to abuse power, nor take away the human need for interdependence.

    Regards to military: I'm sure our beliefs on this subject aren't wildly different. I think our military spending is outrageous, and plus you've got these completely ungrateful fucks who don't even see what your country did for their country, they just want to see you as a bully or something, so I can see why you might even not want the U.S. to help anyone else, because any number of random things happen in life once you go to war (that wasn't the original intent) then the person who was TRYING TO HELP ultimately gets blamed. Awesome! Plus like in Vietnam, it was pretty much a pointless war, and while I'm one of those people who support the most recent war, I absolutely DO NOT support how long it went on, how many people were killed, how much money was wasted...I believe it turned ultimately into an abuse of power, though on the other hand there are now great strides being made I've noticed for Muslim women in the Middle East...and frankly, once a nation's women are free, the entire country starts improving. This has been proven time and again in other nations, that the freer the women, the more wealth and stability the country had. You can't just oppress half your citizens because of their gender and expect everything to be balanced, I guess...so this is something good that came out of it.

    Who's in charge here? LOL. That's the big joke. Things happen in the world that people didn't intend or that are beyond a singular entity's control. You can't just blame it all on government, especially when we live in a country where we are free to shape our own.

  6. #16
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Dearest Elfboy, that's a pretty extreme example. There are many other arguments that can be made that interdependence actually serves YOU best in the long run - that there's a natural selfishness in caring for others, because there's safety in numbers.
    Exactly... extreme selfishness is as self-destructive as too-extreme selflessness. There has to be a healthy balance.

    It's possible to see altruism through the lens of enlightened self-interest, but people's ability to hold to that perspective is very limited (leading to the tragedy of the commons). Hence the need to explicitly teach the importance of community and inter-relatedness.

    Also, I find it a little disturbing that extreme narcissist Donald Trump is first on your list (and 50 Cent is second), after you proclaim "neither is right or wrong"... and the "dark" list includes Darth Vader and the Sith.

    Narcissism is largely self-defeating in the long run. Narcissists do better in bull markets (where their lack of risk-aversion pays off), and in cases where they must implement policies that are unpopular and/or detrimental to their employees (where lack of empathy helps). Otherwise, they tend to be unsuccessful except at self-promotion.

  7. #17
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    Well Dark Workers can do things inadvertently (and sometimes even purposefully!) to help...like how Vladimir Putin vastly improved the economy of Russia.

    On the other hand, I frequently want to punch Donald Trump in his ugly face.

    Never-the-less, I believe that Sir Elfboy is confusing the fact that "even a stopped clock is right twice a day" and "sometimes good comes out of bad" with a more extreme idea that there's no good or bad, which is false. I don't agree that it's all neutral, it's just more like yeah sometimes bad people do good things, or sometimes good things come out of tragic events.

  8. #18
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Exactly... extreme selfishness is as self-destructive as too-extreme selflessness. There has to be a healthy balance.

    It's possible to see altruism through the lens of enlightened self-interest, but people's ability to hold to that perspective is very limited (leading to the tragedy of the commons). Hence the need to explicitly teach the importance of community and inter-relatedness.

    Also, I find it a little disturbing that extreme narcissist Donald Trump is first on your list (and 50 Cent is second), after you proclaim "neither is right or wrong"... and the "dark" list includes Darth Vader and the Sith.

    Narcissism is largely self-defeating in the long run. Narcissists do better in bull markets (where their lack of risk-aversion pays off), and in cases where they must implement policies that are unpopular and/or detrimental to their employees (where lack of empathy helps). Otherwise, they tend to be unsuccessful except at self-promotion.
    Donald Trump isn't a narcissist, he's just a cocky 8w7. that's how they role
    50 Cent is one of the most grounded people in the entertainment industry
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  9. #19
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guesswho View Post
    Why is this your theory?

    Isn't it called the enneagram?
    no, it's only loosely correlated with enneagram and somewhat with MBTI.
    Light Worker: SJs, NFs, 1s, 2s, 9s, Social Instinct
    Dark Worker: SPs, NTs, 3s, 7s, 8s, Self Preservation Instinct

    Martin Luther King Jr for example is an 8w9 Light Worker (as is Mufasa from the Lion King). George Lucas is a 9w1 dark worker
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  10. #20
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Well Dark Workers can do things inadvertently (and sometimes even purposefully!) to help...like how Vladimir Putin vastly improved the economy of Russia.

    On the other hand, I frequently want to punch Donald Trump in his ugly face.

    Never-the-less, I believe that Sir Elfboy is confusing the fact that "even a stopped clock is right twice a day" and "sometimes good comes out of bad" with a more extreme idea that there's no good or bad, which is false. I don't agree that it's all neutral, it's just more like yeah sometimes bad people do good things, or sometimes good things come out of tragic events.
    that wasn't really my point, I'm actually advocating the opposite. it's about motivation. pick a side. accomplishing something great requires being motivated to either a) make the world a better place or b) pursue your own self interests first. everyone has both, but to be motivated, you must know which one is higher priority. motivation is the source of power, power which can be used to help yourself or others, which is why the end result of a light worker and dark worker are kind of similar and after a point it is possible to pursue both effectively
    I never said that there aren't good and evil, I said that it is not directly correlated with light worker/dark worker.
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