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  1. #21
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
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    Another thing I've noticed, is if an SJ is criticizing me, they'll use the "NO ONE else does that, you're the ONLY ONE who does/believes that." Like that's supposed to deter me. "Everyone" once believed the earth was flat, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    I hate living in an SJ world. I really hate it. Every time I hear about all these stupid, stupid outdated rules of society that you are supposed to comply to or be outcast, it just makes me want to punch whoever has mentioned it. Here's an example of a conversation (paraphrased) between me and my ISFJ mum (and one that actually shows one of the less stupid traditions).

    MUM: We've got to clean up the house.
    ME: Why? It'll be dirty in 2 days.
    MUM: We have people coming over. Just do a quick clean.
    ME: It's (insert irrelevant person who we see all the time). They know our house is messy.
    MUM: Well some of us have some level of self respect. I don't want them to know we live in a pigsty.
    ME: But it doesn't MATTER what the external appearance of something is AND they've seen that we have a messy house already!
    MUM: It's just a matter of dignity. It's a personal thing, to know that my house is clean makes me feel good, like I'm not a slob.
    ME: But it's NOT USUALLY CLEAN! You know that, so what are you proving to yourself or anyone?
    MUM: (Pointless jibberish) Now come on and help.
    ME: Why do I have to help. I think the whole thing is pointless, I didn't put anything here and it doesn't matter to me.
    MUM: You're part of the family, it's your duty to help out.
    (endless loop)
    Gah. Story of my life there. Except my mum would've started screaming at me and crying about how I "didn't care or love her", otherwise I'd obviously WANT to rearrange the sofa. As if every action I take is based on my love or hatred for people. :rolli:

    Quote Originally Posted by underradar View Post
    I read an article once said that it's better to be enfp male than enfp female in work environment because having enfp qualities in men are more appreciative than having that in women. The article also mentioned that enfp men in general do better in term of career advancement than women. I'm sure it's not like this in every cases but I can see how that play out so I think there's some truth to it.
    Ne discrimination. I've heard of that happening. A man and a woman offer the exact same ideas.

    To the man: "Wow, that's brilliant! Ingenious, insightful! Truly a visionary on the team."

    To the woman: "err... lolwut...?" (*crazy lady mumble mumble*) "I'll consider it." (condescending pat on the shoulder)

    It's like what I mentioned with the crying at work. Men aren't judged as harshly as women are. On the opposite end of the spectrum, women are ALSO judged harshly if they don't express ENOUGH emotion.
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  2. #22
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    Yeah, cleaning things once in a while is an outdated rule of society; fight da powah!

  3. #23
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weber View Post
    Yeah, cleaning things once in a while is an outdated rule of society; fight da powah!
    That's not quite the point, I went on a bit of a segue, but yeah... lol. I'd explain myself further, but I'm trying to catch lyrics to a song and I CBF.
    JiNe
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    "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

    "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

  4. #24
    Senior Member Eckhart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    My mother was an ESFJ, and just a sample of her many complaints of me when I was growing up:

    - You're too assertive, you can't accept that men are in-charge my mother thinks that men should do housework too and tells me to do so too
    - You're too messy
    - You're heartless
    - You don't appreciate traditional practices (funerals, marriage, etc)
    - You never care about housework
    - I want grandchildren!!!1!!one
    - You don't believe in religion Something in the direction
    - You're too critical and you think too much
    - You're not chatty with people and you aren't warm-hearted enough!
    - You need to settle down and stop "playing the field"! I don't play the field but I should get a girlfriend NAOW, probably also linked to "I want grandchildren!!!1!!one
    - Why don't you like kittens, puppies and tiny fluffball dogs? ALL women love them! You're the ONLY ONE who doesn't. [color=red]I like kittens *sigh* Don't know if I would hear so, possibly not.
    - You're EVIL for not liking poetry, flowers and romance films.
    The things not crossed out above I get to hear all too from my ISFJ mother all the time, and I am a guy.

  5. #25
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    I think FJ before SJ, for a woman, in most people's ideals

  6. #26
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I think women are mainly expected to be ISFJ (obedient and helpful) or ISFP (quiet, easy to get along with, but fun) ...otherwise we might be too loud, opinionated, argumentative, intelligent, et al...
    That's the spice right there!

  7. #27
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    I hate living in an SJ world. I really hate it. Every time I hear about all these stupid, stupid outdated rules of society that you are supposed to comply to or be outcast, it just makes me want to punch whoever has mentioned it. Here's an example of a conversation (paraphrased) between me and my ISFJ mum (and one that actually shows one of the less stupid traditions).

    MUM: We've got to clean up the house.
    ME: Why? It'll be dirty in 2 days.
    MUM: We have people coming over. Just do a quick clean.
    ME: It's (insert irrelevant person who we see all the time). They know our house is messy.
    MUM: Well some of us have some level of self respect. I don't want them to know we live in a pigsty.
    ME: But it doesn't MATTER what the external appearance of something is AND they've seen that we have a messy house already!
    MUM: It's just a matter of dignity. It's a personal thing, to know that my house is clean makes me feel good, like I'm not a slob.
    ME: But it's NOT USUALLY CLEAN! You know that, so what are you proving to yourself or anyone?
    MUM: (Pointless jibberish) Now come on and help.
    ME: Why do I have to help. I think the whole thing is pointless, I didn't put anything here and it doesn't matter to me.
    MUM: You're part of the family, it's your duty to help out.
    (endless loop)
    That's not tradition, that's common decency.

    The only pass I'll give you is if her definition of messy means putting things in order vs eliminating odors, junk and dirt. Depending on who it is, I'll leave things in disarray because I'm comfortable with the person. But strangers or newer people will see a more put together house, not because of tradition, but because of respect.

  8. #28
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    Another thing I've noticed, is if an SJ is criticizing me, they'll use the "NO ONE else does that, you're the ONLY ONE who does/believes that." Like that's supposed to deter me. "Everyone" once believed the earth was flat, too.

    Most women talk like that. They use extremes- all or nothing, always or never- especially when frustrated. I'm thinking of past girlfriends and females I know of all types, and most act like that. You just notice it in SJs, or those you are erroneously typing as SJs because you want to believe that they are SJs.

  9. #29
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    I am always willing to clean up the house, but I don't do it for others, I do it for myself. I hate to be in a dirty, messy, cluttered environment. It is the visual equivalent of noise. The rare visitor will thus find most of my house in order at any time, with the exception of areas in use for ongoing projects.

  10. #30
    (blankpages) Xenon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Most women talk like that. They use extremes- all or nothing, always or never- especially when frustrated. I'm thinking of past girlfriends and females I know of all types, and most act like that. You just notice it in SJs, or those you are erroneously typing as SJs because you want to believe that they are SJs.
    I believe what she's talking about is the use of the argument "people don't that" as a good reason why someone should not do something. People don't do it, so you shouldn't do it, case closed. Not the use of extremes like "no one".

    On the cleaning thing, I personally don't care if someone's house is cluttered (as long as it's not compeltely disgusting), I don't take it as a sign of disrespect and I don't understand how neurotic my ISFJ mother gets over it. (She fears people will take it as a sign that she "doesn't have her life together" or something, and thinks people will judge her for that). But as I got older I decided if it was important to her and it made her feel less stressed, I'd help her with it anyway. It may not affect me, but it affects her, and I can't claim I never get worked up for irrational reasons. Putting up with people's irrationalities (to a reasonable extent) is part of living with someone or having a close relationship with someone.

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