S and N... work in progress on a working definition

[miss fortune]

I actually typed this out on word since there was a lot of information and I'm not very apt to pay attention to my spelling this means several posts in a row, I fear

Feel free to contribute, but please keep it civil

S v N… there seems to be a lot of confusion and inaccuracy in description of this dichotomy on this site… almost more even than T v F, which is discussed much more frequently and with a more reasonable basis of knowledge by site members.

To start off, there is no plain S or N… Sensing or Intuition, it is, of course, more complicated than that. You have both the introverted and extroverted aspects of these traits that act independently of one another for the most part, Se, Ne, Si and Ni, both of the introverted counterparts function in a similar capacity and both of the extroverted ones do as well.

 

[miss fortune]

For a brief description of the traits associated with these functions, to help people understand things a bit better

Se- extroverted sensing, the ability to notice the world around you and collect facts for later synthesis by your Ti or Fi… the ability of Se is to collect information from the surroundings (and we’re not just talking about immediate physical surroundings here- movies, music, books and other people are also relevant sources of data!) and noticing signifigant occurrances- and Se can have quite an appetite for information until it is satisfied that it has a grasp on the whole picture/situation. Se learning involves real world examples or actual hands on experimentation. Does the chemistry concept make more sense after you’ve done the experiment in lab instead of just hearing the professor describe it? This could very well be Se helping you out. With very well developed Se you can feel at one with the world around you and develop the ability to easily read situations and figure out how to react based on what reaction you desire. Other functions might view it as somewhat naïve to trust what you’ve learned from experience or from your senses.

Ne- Ne is Se’s intuitive counterpart… Ne might not notice the birds stopping singing, a bluejay calling or a shadow moving across the grass, or even that the soup that they’ve been eating is really, really hot (for the first spoonful or so)… While Se is concerned with what is (other functions are good enough at helping out with figuring out what could be with the outside information!) Ne is concerned with what could be. This, of course, can lead to paranoia on the bad side or on the good side it opens up an entirely new theoretical possibilities. What Se is collecting from the rest of the world, Ne is collecting from the space somewhere between their ears… say the possibility mentioned above occurs and the birds stop singing… if the Ne dom hears this occur the mind will immediately go into possibilities of why this could possibly occur (could it be DDT? Is it fall already? Did all birds simultaneously find a delicious worm?..... is there a hawk around?) while the Se dom would notice that they stopped singing, a blue jay called and that there was a shadow and would be staring up at the hawk. Oh, Ne also probably understands the concept of that chemistry principle perfectly fine on a theoretical level and will end up setting their lab coat on fire with the bunsen burner if allowed into the lab! Ne plays with theories and possibilities, Ti or Fi give them a warp and weft onto which to weave their ideas properly.

 

[miss fortune]

Si- Si is almost a sensory database in a way. Ever tasted a soup and thought “they usually have more oregano in this soup”? That’s Si, looking into it’s database of previous experiences and pulling that file. Si involves keeping a mental file cabinet (or library!) of all past experiences and things that they’ve learned… when confronted by something new it sifts through these files in order to find the proper situation to compare it to and figure out what to do about it. They do this signifigantly more quickly than the most adept librarian most of the time… Feeling that someone reminds you of someone you know, Sensory memory (remembering what something feels like for an example) and hindsight are all examples of Si in action. Si remembers the past, learns from the past and knows how to apply lessons already learned to the future. Si learning involves relating new facts to facts that are already known in order to remember them and have some mental connections. To others Si can seem overly detail oriented, cautious or traditional- this is simply a manifestation of the data being stored, retreived and used.

Ni- is Si’s intuitive counterpart. While Si stores data of what has been Ni stores data of what might be. Si processes and stores data in files marked “what is” while Ni’s files are marked “what will be”. Ni sees a world of icebergs… what we see is only the tiniest part of what actually IS… that all things must be filtered through the seives of purpose, hidden meanings, signs and symbols. Ni sees itself as seeing the “true meaning” behind situations, though it often comes across as somewhat cynical or paranoid to the other functions at times (just as Ni can view Se as shallow for absorbing what is sensed). Ni usually takes the form of just knowing something or having hunches about things… there’s not a thought process that goes into deciding that you don’t trust that guy, Ni has put it all together without telling you and you instinctively don’t trust him. To everyone else, Ni users can appear to be rather paranoid about things.

 

[miss fortune]

To give a working example of these functions, let’s send Se, Ne, Si and Ni out together on an archeological expedition to dig up 3 toed hippopotamuses out of a corn field in Iowa- Se is happily pulling out the bones and laying them out into how they most likely fit together while the hippopotamus was still alive, using joints, cues on how things fit and what the function of the bone was as cues. Ne is busy trying to decide whether the hippopotamus was grey, brown, green or furry… it’s looking at the bone structure that Se is building and mentally building an image of the hippopotamus. Si is looking for signs as to what killed the hippopotamuses in a database of ancient historical meteorological and geological trends… maybe comparing these trends to things that had caused other mass deaths of creatures could give an insight as to why all of the hippopotamuses here died. Ni knows that whatever killed the hippopotamuses can also kill large numbers of humans; Ni also knows that it was invited along because it’s spouse tends to pack lunch for everyone that Ni hangs out with.

We can begin to answer a lot of questions and stereotypes based on type when we know more about these functions… and the answers don’t tend to be that Sensors really ARE dumber, Js are critical because they’re not nice people, and all intuitives are paranoid… I have more, but it’s sunny and lovely out and I’m tired of typing for the moment!

 

[miss fortune]

by the way, I'd be interested to hear other people's descriptions of the above-described functions!

I just wanted to get some actual descriptions of these functions out there because there seems to be some confusion on the topic at times...

 

[gromit]

To give a working example of these functions, let’s send Se, Ne, Si and Ni out together on an archeological expedition to dig up 3 toed hippopotamuses out of a corn field in Iowa- Se is happily pulling out the bones and laying them out into how they most likely fit together while the hippopotamus was still alive, using joints, cues on how things fit and what the function of the bone was as cues. Ne is busy trying to decide whether the hippopotamus was grey, brown, green or furry… it’s looking at the bone structure that Se is building and mentally building an image of the hippopotamus. Si is looking for signs as to what killed the hippopotamuses in a database of ancient historical meteorological and geological trends… maybe comparing these trends to things that had caused other mass deaths of creatures could give an insight as to why all of the hippopotamuses here died. Ni knows that whatever killed the hippopotamuses can also kill large numbers of humans; Ni also knows that it was invited along because it’s spouse tends to pack lunch for everyone that Ni hangs out with.

Can you do one or two more stories like this?

 

[gromit]

I guess also please clarify in the first story the difference between Ne and Se... they seem really similar to me, like part of the same process...

 

[miss fortune]

I'll work on it

 

[Phantonym]

Excellent thread idea! Good job.

 

[miss fortune]

I guess also please clarify in the first story the difference between Ne and Se... they seem really similar to me, like part of the same process...

the main difference between Se and Ne in that little story was that Se was doing something with the data that they had and the knowlege they could deduce to come up with what the animal looked like where Ne was using their imagination to construct a possible outcome (or 50... who knows? )

going back to Ne working with the possibilities of the situation where Se was developing a construct with the information they could gain through the environment (i.e. the bones)... Ne is probably kind of glad that Se started laying bones out, but wonders why they keep going when they could be imagining an outcome while Se is wondering why Ne is being a lazy bum and not chipping in the work effort

I have a sneaking suspicion that Tamske could do this all better than I can

 

[gromit]

the main difference between Se and Ne in that little story was that Se was doing something with the data that they had and the knowlege they could deduce to come up with what the animal looked like where Ne was using their imagination to construct a possible outcome (or 50... who knows? )

going back to Ne working with the possibilities of the situation where Se was developing a construct with the information they could gain through the environment (i.e. the bones)... Ne is probably kind of glad that Se started laying bones out, but wonders why they keep going when they could be imagining an outcome while Se is wondering why Ne is being a lazy bum and not chipping in the work effort

I have a sneaking suspicion that Tamske could do this all better than I can

But Ne needs some degree of Se? and Se needs some degree of Ne...

 

[miss fortune]

we all have all 8 functions and we all use all 8 functions

nothing can truly function independently

 

[gromit]

I have a sneaking suspicion that Tamske could do this all better than I can

p.s. you are doing a great job!

 

[miss fortune]

thanks!

I try

 

[gromit]

Is it maybe like extrapolation vs. interpolation a little bit?

 

[miss fortune]

sort of, yeah! (I had to look that up- it's been about 8 years since I've taken a math class!)

or like the difference between looking at a box of cake mix and imagining how the cupcakes would taste with various frostings and how delicious that would be and looking at a box of cake mix and wondering whether you could extract any useful chemicals out of it to make a chemical weapon... theoretically speaking

 

[Rainne]

Hm, that explains a lot! I find myself using Se a lot.

 

[sculpting]

Hmmmmmmm....

I, being an Ne-monster am an utter Se fail. Si I do-as a library of past experiences.

But Se? Just recently I was listening to a piano piece. For very low pitch instruments-like orchestral music or things like violins with vibrations-I have to Ne connect the sound to touch-I have to feel it to perceive it.

For the piano music-I had to Ne connect it to something new-a visual as it is harder to feel. I see it in order to perceive it. I see it as a collection of colors.

It's like I take in sensory data but translate via Ne connections into something my brain can use??? I dunno, it is weird. But if I dont do the above-external Se sensory stimuli gets ignored due to all the ongoing Ne connections that are already underway internal.

 

[miss fortune]

I kind of identify with the whole having to translate it around thing... I have the universe's most pathetic Ni somehow... I'll sit there for a good while wondering what I feel so damned paranoid about and finally have to use some weird Ti + Ne with a dash of Se in order to figure it all out logically

and glad that I got Se correct Rainne!

 

[musttry]

While Si stores data of what has been Ni stores data of what might be.

I would disagree that Ni stores data. Whereas Si is more of a cross-checking function, Ni is a much more superficial function that takes in information and compresses it into a conclusion (future or present). It does not need vast amounts of data and fills in the holes with suppositions and hypotheses, which is why it is not always right. I think that Ni supported with Te might tend to be more accurate about reality. However, Ni supported by Fe sees things in terms of personal relationships and value structures.

I liked the illustration of an iceberg, about seeing the unseen based on a limited amount of the seen.