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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    There is a lot of valid information in this thread.

    Myers and Briggs is all right. However, they are not John and Linda.
    I have nothing against John and Linda per se. They are insightful people I am sure.

    Does understanding entail work?
    Not in the procedure.
    Understanding entails preparatory work only.
    In the process of understanding, work is an impediment.

    You or I do not work the pieces out.
    The pieces come together all by themselves.

    Rule is not a preliminary.
    It is an accomodation only.

    The tertiary is not a pack in the parcel at all.
    It is on the other side of the medial point.
    What about Dario?

    The pieces may come together all by themselves, but there is value in taking them apart and putting them back together. It deepens understanding.

    Rule is not preliminary, but the truth it attempts to describe is.

    What of the temptation then, if the tertiary is on the other side of the medial point?


    --------

    I think we have rehashed the debate on validity and cultism and so on quite enough. This is a forum that has typology in its name. We are studying a system for what it is.

    People have different uses for it. I have seen it used for good effect plenty of times in work situations, and edcoahing's examples drive the point home even more.

    The point, first, is to do no harm. The next point is to use the system to broaden perspective in specified ways. The final point is to aid individuals' in growth, the same way that thinking about the superego, id, and ego does. That's what I think about it.

    Psychoanalysis is not scientific in the modern sense, but it can nevertheless still be useful. That is why psychoanalists are sometimes praised by the American Psychiatric Association.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  2. #52
    Senior Member Valuable_Money's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    What about Dario?

    The pieces may come together all by themselves, but there is value in taking them apart and putting them back together. It deepens understanding.

    Rule is not preliminary, but the truth it attempts to describe is.

    What of the temptation then, if the tertiary is on the other side of the medial point?


    --------
    More poetics
    Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh? wgah'nagl fhtagn

  3. #53
    Senior Member Heart&Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    This may perhaps have been asked before but, cult of what?

    Or does this cult perhaps have no nefarious purpose, it's just that it is base and pedestrian and not at all spiritual?
    Yes, + 1!

    I enjoy that MBTI is pragmatic to the core and descriptive rather than prescriptive. Contrary to religion, it harbours little to none moralistic judgment, allowing human differences to flourish instead of oppressing them in the name of some 'higher meaning'.

    There is no higher meaning in MBTI. There is no supernatural creator above and before this world, there's no eternal moral law demanding obedience, there's no world beyond this world. Yay to that!

    Indeed, not attempting to legimise itself through idiotic claims of some eternal, godly origin, its legitimacy depends openly only on its descriptive usefulness to our understanding of self and others. It'll meet its limits often and then I, and others, will use other conceptual models to proceed.

    To paraphrase Gilles Deleuze: a concept should be evaluated according to the greatness of the events of the world that it makes us able to grasp in an interesting way. No revelations, no eternal correspondence, no supernatural entities begging to turn off reason and turn on blind faith.

    Of course, this radical pragmatism is likely to piss off people fetishising 'spirituality'. Well... religious folks are easily pissed off, what can I say?


    PS. Btw, Victor, if you can show me BY WAY OF THEORETICAL CONTENT AND FOUNDATION how the conceptual framework of MBTI supports a global capitalist + military industrial ideology, I'm very interested. I'm serious, and in that case I'd share your reservations. Only so far, I can't really see how MBTI in itself would be incompatible with or downright work against systemic criticisms of global economic alienation or military manipulation.
    But I'm eager to see the interpretation of MBTI as a late-capitalist tool for subtle indoctrination. I don't like to overlook conceptual consequences. Especially not if concepts turn out to be carriers of hidden agendas of manipulative ideologies.

  4. #54
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    This is a forum that has typology in its name. We are studying a system for what it is.
    And it is a business first and foremost.

    Indeed the forum has typology in it's name, if only because the propriators of the MBTI (TM) trademark refuse to have their intellectual property sullied by the kind of threads and postings frequently found at, ahem, Typology Central.


  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart&Brain View Post
    But I'm eager to see the interpretation of MBTI as a late-capitalist tool for subtle indoctrination. I don't like to overlook conceptual consequences. Especially not if concepts turn out to be carriers of hidden agendas of manipulative ideologies.
    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    And it is a business first and foremost.

    Indeed the forum has typology in it's name, if only because the propriators of the MBTI (TM) trademark refuse to have their intellectual property sullied by the kind of threads and postings frequently found at, ahem, Typology Central.

    The charge that something is "a business first and foremost" is a charge you can level at many things...including industrial research in device physics. What are the implications you can draw about that?

    The fact of the matter is that things need money to operate. The money is obtained through business, government, or charity. Very few things run on charity alone.

    Academia (which is mostly government funded) has its own faults. Sometimes, even, academics resent their colleagues in industry. Leveling charges similar to the ones parroted here.

    As far as I know, this site is an outgrowth of sites designed for people of similar MBTI types to congregate and socialize. This site being a place for all types to congregate and socialize--hardly something that should be linked officially to the MBTI instrument.

    Nevertheless, there is a background of Myers-Briggs related discussion. Look at how the forum is organized.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  6. #56
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart&Brain View Post
    if you can show me BY WAY OF THEORETICAL CONTENT AND FOUNDATION how the conceptual framework of MBTI supports a global capitalist + military industrial ideology, I'm very interested. I'm serious, and in that case I'd share your reservations.
    One presumes that as a tool applied from outside the person, MBTI is the next best thing to a tattooed barcode. Even if used by the individual as a tool for personal investigation, there is the risk of rectification, the sin of understanding your essence to have been adequately labelled and therefore in no further need of inspection. The kiddies will be taught to look no further than their test results. They can be slotted into their appropriate career and tut-tutted at when they make bids for freedom.

    As for further discussion of MBTI as a systematic model, my own thoughts on Meyers-Briggs float around "preference." So far as I have seen discussed, "preference" is a primitive notion. I also don't know what Jung had to say on the concept. However, for MBTI to become scientific or verifiable in some way, or even just to become more satisfying than any other pragmatic classification system, what's needed is a discussion on, or a discovery of, the origin of preference.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  7. #57
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Jung came from a time all people in a town lived a sort of masquerade behind traditions, norms and morales. A real human being with errors or imperfections wasnt accepted at that time by society. So society evolved around their "good mannerisms" masquerade and people became so foreign to each other they had issues to bond or even suspected each other of not being a moral person.

    If you read the book "Der Steppenwolf" by Hermann Hesse you get an idea, but beware the entrance fee is your mind.

    Nowadays it seems people are on a journey to the individual self again, but not because circumstances made it necessary. I guess societies development of putting a lot of weight into meritocracy and favouring the best and brightest only will further this journey until a point of critical mass, when circumstances can become an issue again.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #58
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    What about Dario?

    The pieces may come together all by themselves, but there is value in taking them apart and putting them back together. It deepens understanding.

    Rule is not preliminary, but the truth it attempts to describe is.

    What of the temptation then, if the tertiary is on the other side of the medial point?


    --------

    I think we have rehashed the debate on validity and cultism and so on quite enough. This is a forum that has typology in its name. We are studying a system for what it is.

    People have different uses for it. I have seen it used for good effect plenty of times in work situations, and edcoahing's examples drive the point home even more.

    The point, first, is to do no harm. The next point is to use the system to broaden perspective in specified ways. The final point is to aid individuals' in growth, the same way that thinking about the superego, id, and ego does. That's what I think about it.

    Psychoanalysis is not scientific in the modern sense, but it can nevertheless still be useful. That is why psychoanalists are sometimes praised by the American Psychiatric Association.
    I have not read Dario.
    What about Sacks?

    What about the temptation as the tertiary is on the other side?
    A good question.

    Where is the shadow?
    What does it do?
    How does it come by?

  9. #59
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    The charge that something is "a business first and foremost" is a charge you can level at many things...including industrial research in device physics. What are the implications you can draw about that?

    The fact of the matter is that things need money to operate. The money is obtained through business, government, or charity. Very few things run on charity alone.

    Academia (which is mostly government funded) has its own faults. Sometimes, even, academics resent their colleagues in industry. Leveling charges similar to the ones parroted here.

    As far as I know, this site is an outgrowth of sites designed for people of similar MBTI types to congregate and socialize. This site being a place for all types to congregate and socialize--hardly something that should be linked officially to the MBTI instrument.

    Nevertheless, there is a background of Myers-Briggs related discussion. Look at how the forum is organized.
    Parroted is the work of parrots. Consider your statement.

    With all corporate business the transaction is an economic one: we have a buyer and a seller. We can have a lemon or a peach. Wrap it up how you like and make comparisons with research or academia.

    But you must know deep down that making any comparison between MBTI and, say, "industrial research" by stating irrelevant commonalities, such as funding, is deeply fallacious.

    My point was that it's a business and it works like a business. Is your retort: so what, there's alot of decent businessmen out there? Mine would be: there's alot of charlatans as well. How exactly do you make a distinction? You do not, Ygolo. You leave that to me, when, of course, that's your business as the supplier, not mine as the consumer. Effectively, you are saying, " Prove my Miracle Gro (TM) does not work". My reply to you would be that I have enough shit in the garden and your Miracle Gro is irrelevant.

    Who's the parrot, you or me?


  10. #60
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    We are pattern recognising animals.

    But even more, we need pattern to function.

    So we prefer any pattern to no pattern.

    But since the Enlightenment we have learnt that there are patterns which correspond to nature and those that don't.

    And we use empirical testing to determine which patterns correspond and which don't.

    For instance, astrology, alchemy, eugenics, Lysenkoism, phrenology, the Exodus and MBTI don't correspond to nature. In other words, empirical testing shows they are untrue.

    But we are still carried away with our own facility for pattern recognition and our own wish that they were true.

    In our vanity we mistake our wishes for reality.

    But even the Ancient Greeks knew that hubris is followed by nemesis.

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