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  1. #21
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    The question for the post is flawed in many ways.

    First, the terms liberal/conservative have a lot of baggage that has evolved from the original uses of the terms. They also have cultural and generational baggage.

    I think there might be as much of a F/T correlation as a N/S one.

    I might be considered more liberal if I had any faith in government properly assessing whether a program was getting a reasonable result for the money spent--and then killing a program when it didn't. As it is, the conservatives have become liberal spenders. The liberals have a scape goat to throw off all restraint on spending.

    A read up on the term "neoconservative" will be very enlightening. To some degree, the neocons are the WWII democrats who were also hawks so they defected. The remaining liberals drew heavily from the philosophy of socialism/communism to steer the new party (post neo-con defectors) further left.

    Now we have the Hawk Democratic Party (republicans) and the Socialist Democratic Party.

    Of course all this is a very simplistic summary of a complicated reality.

  2. #22
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    What about those unconventional SPs? Remember? Remember how unconventional they are? *nudging reader with elbow*
    They are definitely unconventional (and I thought of them as I typed), but I still run across many who have as strong a single approach to things as SJs do. I still think what we're raised with and what we've experienced colors us tremendously; and if we naturally use that experience as a litmus test, then we have trouble seeing alternatives and will reject them if we have NOT experienced them yet.

    N's can more readily project themselves into things they haven't experienced yet, thus using those projections as instructional and a source anyway.

    Here's where I add standard boilerplate: neither way is "wrong" ... both are useful depending on the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheChosenOne View Post
    Ok, but I actually know more conservatives who are N than S. Personally I don't think there's much of a trend between S/N and conservatism/liberalism.
    That's funny.
    I don't.
    Most of the N's I've run across have a better change to be open or at least be able to explain alternative points of view. They use N to empathize. The big thing I see with S's is that they are more accepting of people and issues that fly in the face of their values if they (1) know the person or (2) can sympathize someone with the person or (3) have a moral code that guides behavior... some sort of tangible connection or standards.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  3. #23
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    To me the concept of separation at all makes no sense. According to the theory everyone uses N and S and therefore a S can be a perfect N in a situation when the need arises.

    I more inclined to think that your intrest in life depend on your experiences, intelligence, education and intrests. I witnessed that many of my friends, who were unsure what to do with themselves entered a role when school was over.

    At the beginning it was just a new role to me and I was happy for them, like for example someone started to behave like an investment broker. The thing is most of them had staied in this role and until today you have no actual process of how they developed there, they just became over night.

    I think, if you live your life according to this approach, you will suck at novelty and it doesnt depend on you being S or N.

    Of course one would say a N would never do that, but that cannot be proven. Given bad circumstances anything is possible.

    I personally take distance from any S and N separation. It is just a caption of a moment, no analysis of the whole.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  4. #24
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    They are definitely unconventional (and I thought of them as I typed), but I still run across many who have as strong a single approach to things as SJs do. I still think what we're raised with and what we've experienced colors us tremendously; and if we naturally use that experience as a litmus test, then we have trouble seeing alternatives and will reject them if we have NOT experienced them yet.
    Being unconventional and being open don't have to go together Being stubborn about doing something different is not much better than being stubborn about being the same*.

    However, the divide is pretty well researched. Liberals tend to be Ns, or tend to be Open. Likewise, they tend to be idealists, forward-thinkers and hopefuls. They also tend to be disorganized, unable to bring their plans to life and a bunch of other downers. And conservatives tend to be fearful of change, misadjust for risk and a bunch of other negatives that drive them, but they also tend to be more in control and more aware of what doing something would cause(**).

    (* As an entire pitchfork wielding NP population gathers to hunt me down.)

    (** Other interesting interactions come about from this, so I don't mean to dump it all on the S:N dimension. Just as it is more the TJs that will be conservative "fear, order, dominance", it is also the SPs that are often anti-establishment. Using a single axis really loses a lot of nuance to interactive effects between types. Like libertarians, which are a mixture of liberals and conservative values. You also end up reducing the political spectrum using liberal and conservative. Perhaps a better way of putting it, although I don't know if it is true, is that Nf and St are prone towards liberalism and conservatism, while InP and esT are prone to libertarianism and statism. That is, large scale conservatism tends to favor ESTJ attitudes (paternal, protective, etc.), while small scale conservatism is not unusual (even common) for the INTx mix. This is all subject to IIRC, of course. Also, this footnote is too large and should of been the main text of my post. Ramblings end here.)

  5. #25
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pippi View Post
    Are you confusing "independent" with "liberal"? N types are less likely to accept the status quo and more likely to question things. I don't think that necessarily makes them more liberal.
    That's practically the definition of liberalism, and the opposite of conservatism. But some people who are essentially liberals, don't like to associate themselves as such, due to stigma, even if their views line up. There should also be an N correlation with libertarian types, but less so.

    I read a study a while ago which found people (in Germany, if it makes a difference) self-identified as liberal were more likely to be NP, with conservatives more likely SJ.

  6. #26
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    The question for the post is flawed in many ways.

    First, the terms liberal/conservative have a lot of baggage that has evolved from the original uses of the terms. They also have cultural and generational baggage.

    I think there might be as much of a F/T correlation as a N/S one.

    I might be considered more liberal if I had any faith in government properly assessing whether a program was getting a reasonable result for the money spent--and then killing a program when it didn't. As it is, the conservatives have become liberal spenders. The liberals have a scape goat to throw off all restraint on spending.

    A read up on the term "neoconservative" will be very enlightening. To some degree, the neocons are the WWII democrats who were also hawks so they defected. The remaining liberals drew heavily from the philosophy of socialism/communism to steer the new party (post neo-con defectors) further left.

    Now we have the Hawk Democratic Party (republicans) and the Socialist Democratic Party.

    Of course all this is a very simplistic summary of a complicated reality.
    Yes, the question is very simplified. But creating a large first post would be somewhat unproductive.

  7. #27
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The big thing I see with S's is that they are more accepting of people and issues that fly in the face of their values if they (1) know the person or (2) can sympathize someone with the person or (3) have a moral code that guides behavior... some sort of tangible connection or standards.
    Exactly. My parents do this all the time, and they are ISTJ and ISFJ. They'll tone down on "gay bashing" if they know someone who is gay, and they'll be more sympathetic to "liberals" (which to them means anyone not ultra fundie, Reagan-loving, Dobson listening, and so on), which they class me as, if they know and like an outside person who is liberal.

    This doesn't mean that they accept them per se, it just means that they'll tone down the vitriol (always with the caveat that, "oh, I like so and so, but you know they're wrong about such and such. It's probably because their lives feel purposeless, and they feel guilty, but instead of turning to God, they turn to their little pet agendas thinking it will fulfill them").

    On the other hand, you should see the fit they throw when my ENTP brother grows his hair even medium-long (shaggy).
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  8. #28
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Exactly. My parents do this all the time, and they are ISTJ and ISFJ. They'll tone down on "gay bashing" if they know someone who is gay, and they'll be more sympathetic to "liberals" (which to them means anyone not ultra fundie, Reagan-loving, Dobson listening, and so on), which they class me as, if they know and like an outside person who is liberal.

    This doesn't mean that they accept them per se, it just means that they'll tone down the vitriol (always with the caveat that, "oh, I like so and so, but you know they're wrong about such and such. It's probably because their lives feel purposeless, and they feel guilty, but instead of turning to God, they turn to their little pet agendas thinking it will fulfill them").

    On the other hand, you should see the fit they throw when my ENTP brother grows his hair even medium-long (shaggy).
    That sounds bad, but do you really think its just because they are S ? Somehow that explanation does not give a sufficient explanation to me
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  9. #29
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    I don't think there is much correlation between type and political orientation.
    I'm an ENTP and a libertarian.
    I have INTJ friends who are liberal and some who are conservative.

    In terms of pure temperament theory, I don't know many Idealist conservatives and Guardian liberals though..
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  10. #30
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Again, can you even tell that you are liberal, socialist or conservative ? I like the idea of controlling emission problems even it does cost money you get nothing for. But I dont like on the other hand that like the socialist recently said, rich companies have to invest their dividend into new employees rather than into shareholders.

    What does that make me ? Centralist ? Technocrat ?
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