What exactly differentiates ESFP from ENFP?

[You]

MBTI prejudice says intelligence, which in colliqual terms would be nerdiness. The theory says Se. I'm sure in spite the fact that I clicked the Last page, I probably summarize the whole discussion so far.

 

[Eric B]

Well, yea. Exactly. ( I was thinking of ExFP's, not NF's in general.)

As a side note, I picture a strong INFJ to be a pure mel. I haven't studied these connections though. Do you agree?

INFJ's would be MelPhleg or MelSup, and these are in fact what they tended to come out as mostly when they took the Galen tests here.
The Phleg or Sup part is what matches NF. They are just as reserved (introvert+cooperative) and directive as a pure Mel, but do have more of a want from others (this again is the Motive-focus).

The pure Mel is the ISTJ. They're structure-focused, in addition to introverted, directive and cooperative. So both types will look very similar on the surface.

 

[skylights]

this, from berens, is decent, i think:

Temperaments. Differentiating Improviser™ versus Catalyst™ is key. Often those with ESFP preferences will talk a lot about helping people so they relate to much in the ENFP (Catalyst™) descriptions. For the ENFP, there are always new potentials to be explored. For the ESFP there are always new possibilities for action and ESFPs don’t want to miss opportunities.

Roles. Very often the first clue in recognizing the ESFP pattern is pragmatism. Pragmatic means having autonomy and calling the shots on your own actions. It means taking a utilitarian approach to things rather than seeking consensus or adherence to norms—taking independent action.

Language. It helps to listen for the abstract language of the ENFP, which is about meaning and purpose, using metaphors that many people can relate to while keeping their own unique meanings. ESFP language tends to reference tangibles with specific details when relevant.

Interest in Motive. Both types are interested in why people do things. The ESFP tunes in to what is in it for the other person, whereas the ENFP is interested in their deeper motives.

Different Cognitive Dynamics. ENFPs lead with Ne—Interpreting meanings. ESFPs lead with Se—Experiencing and Noticing subtle changes. Both “read” the room. ESFPs notice physical clues to people’s feelings, picking up the actual physical energy. ENFPs may not even notice the physical cues and energy, but will just “know” the meaning of what is or has been going on. Both types will describe the experience as getting a feeling of what is going on. You have to probe a little to get identify which process is being engaged.

It makes sense that those ESFPs identified with many ENFP descriptors. They were pleased to finally have recognition of their Improviserâ„¢ core needs, values, and talents. And understanding the richer definitions of Se that are now available, they felt much more validated than before.

I like variety. I like people. I am whatever is happening at the moment. I accomplish as much as I can to keep from getting bored—I find something I like and can tolerate, that I can see myself good at down the road. And I’m almost always up and positive. I always have a compliment and look for the good in a situation. I love the simple things in life, and I’m also interested in people and a lot of different things. I look at life’s possibilities: the excitement of what might come out of a situation and what I might learn about a person and how I can help.

Freedom is the most important thing. If I don’t have freedom, then what do I have?

I love talking to people. Making and having friends is gratifying, and I value my friendships. People see me as someone they can tell something to and not just as boring or average. Somehow I charm people, and I am very genuine in my interest. I observe the game of life, and a lot of times it’s about being open and observant on my part. Whenever I find things getting heavy, I say something light to make everyone laugh again. I am offended when things are impersonal and harsh. Some people are so serious and many people feel guilty about having fun. Fun is important because I can get more work done in a few hours than most people do in a whole day. My biggest contribution is in just listening to what people are trying to do, probing and pushing and mirroring back to them what I hear they’re saying.

I love not having to practice and still being good at something. I don’t like having to do a lot of planning. I want to accomplish something and move on to the next thing. I am really good at pulling things off, especially if there is a last-minute crisis. It’s just a matter of trying to keep things together, doing what you have to do in the moment. Being outside, getting physical, is also something I have a need for. Everyone always wants me on their team. People say I’m lucky...

When the moment that I am living in becomes difficult, then I close up physically. I just move through life and react as things come up. I can get worried about the future and go down this long road of awful possibilities or thinking about the past, especially if others will be affected.

I am an individual. I can’t imagine following others, and it’s a waste of time if someone’s not going to do their best. I want freedom for being able to do what I want to do when I want to do it. Don’t tell me I can’t do something. Rules and regulations infuriate me. Doing something by the book isn’t always logical or reasonable. What makes a difference is if you do a good job or not. Do a good job and I respect you. I want to do my best.

I have to be directly in contact with people and know that somehow I am influencing what happens for them in a positive way. That is a kind of driving force in my life, actualizing potential, giving encouragement, letting people know what I think they can do. I have been told I have this uncanny ability to absolutely zero in on and intuit what people need. I sometimes recognize something about them that they have not said to anybody else. And they say, “How did you know?”

I see myself as a facilitator. It’s not about imposing what I want to see happen, although I have some grand ideal of everyone having a better life or feeling better or dealing with a particular issue. Being able to understand people in depth gives me a feeling I have been friends with them forever, and when I act too much that way, they may not be able to handle it. But I feel sad when I see potential in someone and they are either denying it or not able to access it in some way. I’m very sensitive too, but sometimes easily discouraged, and I still go on thrilled to meet new people, with an interest in assisting them in whatever they are seeking. I give them both knowledge and meaning. I bring a fresh perspective and my appreciation for people’s goodness.

If I’m stuck for hours working at a monotonous task, I get peculiar, zonky, and weird. I get very tired if I can’t get out and exchange information. I’ll lack bounce, the bubbling of ideas that makes me run through life. I absolutely have to have a fulfilling job or I get depressed. I want to use my talents, make a difference, and have autonomy. If not, I struggle to retain a sense of self and it’s like my spirit is dying.

People talk about being drawn to me. Friends are so important to me and I have good intentions. I like to think I’ll do whatever I can do to hold on to them, but often I don’t get around to writing or calling. They know that if they create a friendship with me, then the friendship is going to be intense and loyal and I will be there for them when they really need me. And I can engage with people that I care about who are a distance away and feel like they are a part of my life on an ongoing basis, picking up a lot of feeling from what they write or when they call. It would be easier to spin straw into gold than be totally alone...

I remember this wonderful little boy, but he was conning everyone. I kept looking straight at him, “in the soul,” and finally he put his hands up over his eyes and said, “You’ve got to quit looking at me like that. I can look at people like that, but you can’t look at me like that.” And I completely understood him and I said, “I know who you are, and it’s not bad. It’s good, you’re good, and you have promise.” That’s what people don’t want to hear—I see you, I value you, I care what you’ll become, and I wish to be a part of that if you need me.

it would seem that, given this information, ESFP is more interested in activity and movement - progress forwards - while ENFP is more interested in constant idea flow. so the downside to ESFP is that they might press onward without too much consideration of implication, and the downside of ENFP that they might get spiralled out into the idea-ether and completely lose footing in reality.

 

[Crescent Fresh]

ENFPs interrupt me and finish my explanations themselves, while ESFPs just nod and pretend they understood. Just offering a perspective.

That is incredibly accurate!!!

 

[Crescent Fresh]

this, from berens, is decent, i think:

it would seem that, given this information, ESFP is more interested in activity and movement - progress forwards - while ENFP is more interested in constant idea flow. so the downside to ESFP is that they might press onward without too much consideration of implication, and the downside of ENFP that they might get spiralled out into the idea-ether and completely lose footing in reality.

Wow, I've just read everything and it's quite spot-on description! Thanks for posting this btw!

 

[Chiharu]

Well, if you're definitely ENFP than Se is basically your least developed function. You probably have trouble getting lost in the moment, etc.

If you're definitely ESFP, Ne is your least developed function. You probably have trouble noticing patterns, generating copious amounts of inter-related ideas from a single one, etc.

If your Ne and Se are about equally developed... hell if I know. ^^

 

[Eric B]

Roles.
Very often the first clue in recognizing the ESFP pattern is pragmatism. Pragmatic means having autonomy and calling the shots on your own actions. It means taking a utilitarian approach to things rather than seeking consensus or adherence to norms—taking independent action.

I should have consulted that article. That put it well (That's also a good description of the "expressed Control" I reference).

Well, if you're definitely ENFP than Se is basically your least developed function. You probably have trouble getting lost in the moment, etc.

If you're definitely ESFP, Ne is your least developed function. You probably have trouble noticing patterns, generating copious amounts of inter-related ideas from a single one, etc.

If your Ne and Se are about equally developed... hell if I know. ^^

It's not necessarily "least developed". It's a normally unconscious perspective, often bound up in a less conscious complex. Yet they are also right brain alternatives of each other, so might both come up strongly in a person at times.

 

[Lily Bart]

Two people that I know say that they are ENFPs. I know A very well and can confirm that. I don't know B as well, but I have noticed these differences about her:
1. she is very materialistic -- many times she seems to value her possessions and the acquisition of stuff to the point that it hurts her relationships with others. She also has heavy credit card debt. (person A is one of the least materialistic people I've ever met)
2. she's a college student and struggles a lot with her classes --writing papers is a major ordeal for her (person A is an excellent student who loves to write papers)
3. she is very sentimental and sweet with beautiful manners (person B seems to have a certain amount of disdain for these qualities)

I'm not asserting that person A isn't ENFP -- I guess I am looking for feedback on whether others have noticed these traits more in ENFPs or ESFPs. Sentimentality and sweetness especially seem to me to be SFP traits but not NF traits. I'm not sure about the others.

 

[Little Linguist]

Maybe it's just me, but from the above post I don't know who's what. Maybe it was just a long day.

 

[King sns]

I should have consulted that article. That put it well (That's also a good description of the "expressed Control" I reference).

It's not necessarily "least developed". It's a normally unconscious perspective, often bound up in a less conscious complex. Yet they are also right brain alternatives of each other, so might both come up strongly in a person at times.

Hmm.. this sounds interesting.... can you elaborate?

 

[King sns]

In my normal state I have qualities of both.

I'm definitely a people person. Cheerful, fun, smiling, kind of scattered, disorganized, late, insightful, bright, interested in a wide variety of things, thoughtful, enjoy the center of attention but also bringing other people to the center of attention, conversationalist- (not as much of a listener, more of a talker, but will take the back seat in the presence of bigger talkers), seeing many perspectives, excitable, silly, present moment oriented, (I leave the present moment only to consider all the alternatives for the present moment, or to think about something that might happen within the next couple of days), a bit haphhazard/lazy, overextend myself, (as of this moment, I should have left for my next event 20 minutes ago).... I don't think people like me are very uncommon, but I'm not sure where I would place them on the Ne/Se spectrum. There's the ESFP's that are more Se than this- there's the ENFP's that display more Ne than this. But then there is all of us others, just sanguines. Where do we fit in?

 

[Crescent Fresh]

Two people that I know say that they are ENFPs. I know A very well and can confirm that. I don't know B as well, but I have noticed these differences about her:
1. she is very materialistic -- many times she seems to value her possessions and the acquisition of stuff to the point that it hurts her relationships with others. She also has heavy credit card debt. (person A is one of the least materialistic people I've ever met)
2. she's a college student and struggles a lot with her classes --writing papers is a major ordeal for her (person A is an excellent student who loves to write papers)
3. she is very sentimental and sweet with beautiful manners (person B seems to have a certain amount of disdain for these qualities)

I'm not asserting that person A isn't ENFP -- I guess I am looking for feedback on whether others have noticed these traits more in ENFPs or ESFPs. Sentimentality and sweetness especially seem to me to be SFP traits but not NF traits. I'm not sure about the others.

Person B is definitely not ENFP. Person A does sound like ENFP to me.

 

[Eric B]

Hmm.. this sounds interesting.... can you elaborate?

Brain lateralization theory. Popularized in type theory by Lenore Thomson. P (Pe/Ji) is right brain; J (JePi) is left brain. And e=front; i=back.

So while the dominant and auxiliary bear your preferred J or P attitude, and the tertiary and inferior are the opposite. Functions #7 and 8, which people would think were the least "used", end up as the same J/P, and according to this theory (where they're called "Crow's Nests"), are "the first to come up when the preferred functions can't solve a problem". (#5 & 6 are also opposite J/P attitude).

I've been trying to think when these functions come up like that, instead of simply the tertiary and inferior, and when #7 and 8 are Crow's Nests instead of Trickster and Demon, or if those are the same things. I know the latter, are more connected with more serious [perceived, at least] threats to the ego.

In the cognitive process tests, #7 and 8 often come up pretty strong after the dom. and aux, while the tertiary and inferior often come up the weakest. Yet #7 and 8 are supposed to be the most rejected. It seems to be a matter of the difference between the functions themselves, and the behaviors or "skills" associated with them, the test is measuring the behaviors. I imagine we can engage in the behaviors with the functions as unconscious drivers for them; hence, the Crow's Nests being more about the behaviors, and the Trickster/Demon being the emotionally freighted images or projections the actual functions surface through, in more negative situations.

 

[skylights]

Two people that I know say that they are ENFPs. I know A very well and can confirm that. I don't know B as well, but I have noticed these differences about her:
1. she is very materialistic -- many times she seems to value her possessions and the acquisition of stuff to the point that it hurts her relationships with others. She also has heavy credit card debt. (person A is one of the least materialistic people I've ever met)
2. she's a college student and struggles a lot with her classes --writing papers is a major ordeal for her (person A is an excellent student who loves to write papers)
3. she is very sentimental and sweet with beautiful manners (person B seems to have a certain amount of disdain for these qualities)


I'm not asserting that person A isn't ENFP -- I guess I am looking for feedback on whether others have noticed these traits more in ENFPs or ESFPs. Sentimentality and sweetness especially seem to me to be SFP traits but not NF traits. I'm not sure about the others.

wait... i'm confused... is the 3rd point referring to person A or B... pronoun antecedent change?

anyway - those could also be enneagram differences. person B may be a 7w8 while person A is something else? 7 could fit materialistic/acquisitive, not necessarily enjoying the dedication classes require, and not being as interested in manners or the past?

 

[skylights]

In my normal state I have qualities of both.

I'm definitely a people person. Cheerful, fun, smiling, kind of scattered, disorganized [sometimes - at least, i have to work hard to organize, it doesn't come naturally], late, insightful, bright, interested in a wide variety of things, thoughtful, enjoy the center of attention but also bringing other people to the center of attention, conversationalist- (not as much of a listener, more of a talker, but will take the back seat in the presence of bigger talkers), seeing many perspectives, excitable, silly, present moment oriented, (I leave the present moment only to consider all the alternatives for the present moment, or to think about something that might happen within the next couple of days), a bit haphhazard/lazy, overextend myself, (as of this moment, I should have left for my next event 20 minutes ago).... I don't think people like me are very uncommon, but I'm not sure where I would place them on the Ne/Se spectrum. There's the ESFP's that are more Se than this- there's the ENFP's that display more Ne than this. But then there is all of us others, just sanguines. Where do we fit in?

i fit all of the bolded too!

not the present-moment thing though... my thoughts live in the future most of the time... usually some indefinite timespan down the road, usually years... or like... some odd timeless zone...

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

I would say my mind is almost always in the present. I think I've been confusing opportunities with possibilities. I think that's a big factor in the difference between Se and Ne. I usually enjoy finding opportunities (things that are present at the moment, but disappear with the moment) more than I do possibilities (that which could exist, but in the present don't). I would say that I am barely extroverted, but I do love the present more as the future tends to scare me.

 

[Lady_X]

it's interesting reading those descriptions...i can see why people mistype so often. they sound a lot alike and i relate to both....but i don't think i use se quite as well as i wish i did....there are occasions where getting out of your head and into the moment is reeeeaaallly important and i suck at it.

 

[figsfiggyfigs]

They both have an abnormally high level of Adrenaline.

 

[Lady_X]

^^what do ya mean?

 

[Lady_X]

i mean....i guess...if you mean we can just keep going and going...my old infj friend used to say i was like the energizer bunny but that's just when we're out having fun. i can't seem to find a drop atm to clean my place tho. :/