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  1. #71
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    I agree with everything @skylights has been saying about the social instinct to @The Great One.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    it's a feeling thing. and it's not just trying to not offend. it's just managing relationships.
    Managing relationships doesn't have to be a feeling thing. I'm so-first and Te-dom and my tendencies towards that are often strategic. What are my goals? How does my attire help me accomplish my goals? Furthermore: how does staying on good terms with a particular group help me accomplish my goals? Saying "fuck you" and wearing that track suit to that funeral is a shitty strategy if you want to maintain good connections with those people -- and maintaining good relations with people is useful and practical.
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    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  2. #72
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Also, I feel the need to point out an exception to the rule you all have been fleshing out in this thread:

    I have a good friend, ENFJ 3w2 sx/sp, gay, and very attractive. But his sense of style, I would say, is equally influenced by 3, as by sx and sp.

    3: The clothes need to make him look good -- figure-flattering, compensating for his perceived physical flaws. They need to be not just appropriate for the occasion, but they have to make him look fantastic, at all times. (He's vain.)
    sx: He needs to look attractive. He needs to look sexy, and magnetic, and stunning.
    sp: All his clothes have to be very practical, even if that sacrifices aesthetic appeal. He's willing to have tacky shoes or tacky jackets so long as they're inexpensive and/or comfortable.

    Standard Dress-To-Impress outfits:



    (but with looser pants than the left hand side guy)

    ...So, the reason why I brought up this example is because he doesn't want to look unusual/odd/bizarre -- he doesn't want to be oddly unique, but he wants to look as good as possible, by our societal standards. Note, though, that it's about showing himself off, not the clothes.



    ---------------------------------------------------------------------



    By contrast... yours truly!

    1: I also don't want to stand out in a negative way. But I've got more of a "perfection" orientation. I want to look perfect and beyond reproach. (Or at least, beyond legitimate reproach.)
    so: I want to emulate "cool" clothes I've seen on "cool" people. I want to take the traits I want society and the world to see in me, and show them through my attire.
    sx: I want to show the world The Real Me. Hopefully that will be attractive to people -- potential friends, SOs, what have you. If not, then we're likely incompatible in other ways, so no harm done.

    Standard Dress-To-Impress Outfits:



    Note that for me, unlike for my friend, it's about expressing a message through the clothes -- whereas for my ENFJ friend, it's about making himself look good. It's much more direct than my route, and has a simpler goal.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  3. #73
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    it's a feeling thing. and it's not just trying to not offend. it's just managing relationships.

    Fe does this differently than Fi. it tries to consider what ways to express the relationship emotionally, whereas the Fi type focuses on how to discern one's own center. both types act. both types can ignore the work to balance their emotional big picture based on what they are willing to feel and what they instead quarantine from their own experience/awareness.

    so types are generally the ones who are most accommodating. accommodating is not strictly an Fe or Fi thing. the split is more about the resources one pulls from to accommodate or not accommodate. Fe can clearly be used to claim the emotional context rather than wait for someone else to decide the meaning. likewise, Fi can be used to define the situation in a way that suggests or prevents the assigning of blame, of reprehensibility. it demands response based on personal factors.



    no one thinks they're an so/sp, because everyone desires sex. but they're there. so/sp often have the most obvious co-dependence issues. i've seen many so/sp types mistype as sx/sp, because the instincts are often so poorly understood.
    If you look at Sx in E7w6, you'll see recklessness and general lack of foresight. With me, I view all future possibilities and ask which ones will improve other's lives. Of those possibilities, I ask myself which ones I feel passion for, and could sink my soul into? Of those possibilities, which could I do and not put myself in serious danger? Of those possibilities, which are most fun? Of those possibilities, what would allow me to realize my values? Finally, I choose which of those possibilities would improve my position in life?

    Once I select a possibility I want (it always takes a while), I work backwards from my goal to sketch out a loose plan (the best laid plans of mice and men fail miserably) that will allow me to achieve that goal.

    Once I complete the goal, I usually will reflect back and use information from my expiriences acheiving that goal to set better goals in the future.



    The four stages above are called Brainstorming, Refining Values, Planning, and Reflecting respectively. I don't always follow such a clear-cut path as the model would imply, though. I often move backwards along the flow chart if I need to tweak my goal as time progresses.

  4. #74
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    it's a feeling thing. and it's not just trying to not offend. it's just managing relationships.

    Fe does this differently than Fi. it tries to consider what ways to express the relationship emotionally, whereas the Fi type focuses on how to discern one's own center. both types act. both types can ignore the work to balance their emotional big picture based on what they are willing to feel and what they instead quarantine from their own experience/awareness.

    so types are generally the ones who are most accommodating. accommodating is not strictly an Fe or Fi thing. the split is more about the resources one pulls from to accommodate or not accommodate. Fe can clearly be used to claim the emotional context rather than wait for someone else to decide the meaning. likewise, Fi can be used to define the situation in a way that suggests or prevents the assigning of blame, of reprehensibility. it demands response based on personal factors.



    no one thinks they're an so/sp, because everyone desires sex. but they're there. so/sp often have the most obvious co-dependence issues. i've seen many so/sp types mistype as sx/sp, because the instincts are often so poorly understood.
    If you look at Sx in E7w6, you'll see recklessness and general lack of foresight. With me, I view all future possibilities and ask which ones will improve other's lives. Of those possibilities, I ask myself which ones I feel passion for, and could sink my soul into? Of those possibilities, which could I do and not put myself in serious danger? Of those possibilities, which are most fun? Of those possibilities, what would allow me to realize my values? Finally, I choose which of those possibilities would improve my position in life?

    Once I select a possibility I want (it always takes a while), I work backwards from my goal to sketch out a loose plan (the best laid plans of mice and men fail miserably) that will allow me to achieve that goal.

    Once I complete the goal, I usually will reflect back and use information from my expiriences acheiving that goal to set better goals in the future.



    The four stages above are called Brainstorming, Refining Values, Planning, and Reflecting respectively. I don't always follow such a clear-cut path as the model would imply, though. I often move backwards along the flow chart if I need to tweak my goal as time progresses.

    Quick Question, though…
    Is there a way to develop Sx? It would be nice to have better access to that mode…

  5. #75
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    3: The clothes need to make him look good -- figure-flattering, compensating for his perceived physical flaws. They need to be not just appropriate for the occasion, but they have to make him look fantastic, at all times. (He's vain.)

    sx: He needs to look attractive. He needs to look sexy, and magnetic, and stunning.
    No exception to me. It's actually a little odd to see these goals associated with particular personality traits when I take them for granted as just kinda part of getting dressed. If you're walking out of the house, you present the very best you can. The 3 part in particular looks like a rephrasing of what I've already posted here.

    Vanity is what I'm going to hell for. It'd be farcical if I didn't own up to that.

    sp: All his clothes have to be very practical, even if that sacrifices aesthetic appeal. He's willing to have tacky shoes or tacky jackets so long as they're inexpensive and/or comfortable.
    Half...I'm drawing up a character, and it's got to be accurate to the image in my head even at the sacrifice of a little comfort. But as for the other factor, I'm a little obsessive about maximizing the aesthetic returns from as low a cost as I can push. I have some tricks.

    ...So, the reason why I brought up this example is because he doesn't want to look unusual/odd/bizarre -- he doesn't want to be oddly unique, but he wants to look as good as possible, by our societal standards. Note, though, that it's about showing himself off, not the clothes.
    This is where I must have the cake and eat it, too. When an odd or maligned piece of clothing inspires me, I relish using the context of outfits to make it look "good" by those societal standards. At least give it my best shot. I don't want to hide what I love, and framing it accessibly and making it impressive is my way of honoring it.

    Hearing people say that x or y is yucky or out of style just makes me go "CHALLENGE ACCEPTED" and want to show them how it's done. If the attempt does not pan out; oh, well. I'm responsible for the bet I placed, and just won't wear it out. But usually, the results are good in others' eyes. There's nothing that I actually dislike in fashion: there are only things that are yet to be made cool.
    4w3 6w5 1w2 sx/sp ISFP

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  6. #76
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    Fe does this differently than Fi. it tries to consider what ways to express the relationship emotionally, whereas the Fi type focuses on how to discern one's own center. [...]

    so types are generally the ones who are most accommodating. accommodating is not strictly an Fe or Fi thing. the split is more about the resources one pulls from to accommodate or not accommodate. Fe can clearly be used to claim the emotional context rather than wait for someone else to decide the meaning. likewise, Fi can be used to define the situation in a way that suggests or prevents the assigning of blame, of reprehensibility. it demands response based on personal factors.
    I love how whenever you address a topic, it somehow comes out both succinct and contextualized across the whole. It's beautiful and enlightening.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC
    I'm so-first and Te-dom and my tendencies towards that are often strategic. What are my goals? How does my attire help me accomplish my goals? Furthermore: how does staying on good terms with a particular group help me accomplish my goals? Saying "fuck you" and wearing that track suit to that funeral is a shitty strategy if you want to maintain good connections with those people -- and maintaining good relations with people is useful and practical.
    This is true. The way we present ourselves can have a significant effect on others. I think I often try to harmonize into the environment because when I'm blended (though still very "me"), people accept me as an insider more quickly, and that facilitates my own goals. I actually tend to overdress a little most days, for one because I like fancier clothing, but also because it means I can transition so easily from situation to situation. No one really cares when you're overdressed, it seems, they just might tease you for being fancy, but you won't come off badly. It just looks like maybe you care a little too much. And it's damn convenient when you discover you need to go talk to the dean, present to an executive, go to a nice lunch, or even when you run into your significant other's family. It makes things flow, and it doesn't take anything away from me, because I still wear whatever I want, just a little tailored to the situation, just like I would tailor to meet the weather. It's a completely worthwhile use of resources in my eyes. And sometimes I do choose to go totally against the grain, which can be really fun.

    Probably surprisingly for an sp-last, I'm also a sucker for comfort. In general, unless it's comfy, I don't wear it.

  7. #77
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    @SD45T-2 Yes, that thread has the right feeling. Some people do appreciate it, but usually not my peers for some reason. Older people and teenagers tend to compliment, ask questions, or tell me I look like someone. I do get the "why are you so dressed up" alot, even when I'm just wearing a cotton dress. C'mon, women have been tending to livestock, shooting firearms and chopping wood for generations in dresses! I don't understand why people seem to forget this.

    End rant.
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  8. #78
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    This thread makes me curious. We're all pretty computer/internet literate here, and since many of those who responded seem to value their style-- it begs a question. Do any of you write a style blog?

    I do. I should say though, it's for my own expression + documentation and I'm sure barely anyone reads it. Regardless, I'd be interested to see if anyone else here blogs about personal style. Anyone?
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  9. #79
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Ha ha. I'm a 4w5 sx/sp and I'm for the most part a pretty boring dresser who hardly even brushes her hair. What I wear is not how I express myself.

    That said, when I was younger I had my periods where I was more out there, appearance-wise. But I also had my months where I lived in the same t-shirt and jeans until they fell apart. No matter what I wear, I'm me, and those who have any interest will still have interest. For the most part, fashion/ clothing/ etc I find to be really disinteresting and a bad judge of a person. That said, there are certain things I hate and refuse to wear because they are too normal and boring, but in comparison to many, my clothes are like a primarily black and gray uniform.

    ps. I don't have a tattoo and I will never get one. I have zero interest, and it's not because I'm scared or too dull for it. Besides, there are plenty of sexual lasts out there with them. There is nothing hardcore or tough or 'edgy' about a tattoo anymore. It's something soccer moms get with their girlfriends on a ladies' night out between sips of diet coke, and it's been that way for years.
    That makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    Yes, I fit in with that generalization-- I do believe it is a generalization though. People who know me well are used to the way I dress but the only strangers who seem to get it are other creative people, or older gentlemen (depending on the day). I dress predominately in the past (20's, 40's, 50's) but with an industrial element. I do feel that my style is a reflection of myself, which is tough when people write me off as a "June Cleaver" just based on my appearance. I guess that's a 4 issue though-- taking criticism of (what I see as) my art, as a critique of the essence of myself.
    Who cares if it's a generalization. If you wanna be THAT detail oriented, then MBTI and enneagram would basically not exist. The systems are based on generalizations.

  10. #80
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    @skylights

    The way you're saying it makes it sound vapid and fake, lol. I always dress in a way that suits me. I like long, flowing garments... aesthetic details... feminine silhouettes. I never dress in anything that I dislike for the sake of another.

    The social instinct understands "roles" well, I think. A role is not necessarily something different from my identity - it's a permutation of me... a side of me that I specifically want to embody because that is what I need right now to fulfill my life goals and desires. It makes me feel in harmony with the season and the situation, and it puts me in the mindset to act that role well. This Fall, I want to be a dedicated, hardworking University student, so I will dress that part. I will probably wear a plaid skirt and a cardigan and pearls, because I like that sort of outfit and because it's pleasing to me to play that role, as it's an idealization of who I would like to be. Just because it is a role doesn't mean it's fake. It's not an abandonment of self, nor is it a heartless game for social climbing. It's just another way of being who I want to be - it's a very contextualized way of being who I want to be. It's an adjustment of myself as I relate to my environment.
    I mean, I guess that I can sort of understand that. For instance, I could easily understand that if I was in a bank and worked as a financial consultant, that I should wear a suit and tie because that's what is socially expected. I mean, then I would be fitting that social role of "the professional" at the bank. However, I don't understand your example of a student at the university at all. At the Universities that I have attended people as a whole tend to just come to class in jeans and a T shirt. I really don't understand why you would give a damn about dressing up in the class.

    it's a feeling thing. and it's not just trying to not offend. it's just managing relationships.

    Fe does this differently than Fi. it tries to consider what ways to express the relationship emotionally, whereas the Fi type focuses on how to discern one's own center. both types act. both types can ignore the work to balance their emotional big picture based on what they are willing to feel and what they instead quarantine from their own experience/awareness.

    so types are generally the ones who are most accommodating. accommodating is not strictly an Fe or Fi thing. the split is more about the resources one pulls from to accommodate or not accommodate. Fe can clearly be used to claim the emotional context rather than wait for someone else to decide the meaning. likewise, Fi can be used to define the situation in a way that suggests or prevents the assigning of blame, of reprehensibility. it demands response based on personal factors.
    I could maybe see an Fi user whom has a 9 fix doing this, but the more aggressive Fi users I can't really see doing this. The more aggressive Fi users with the strong Te tend to have the more in-your-face "this is me, and if you don't like it then Fuck you" attitude. For instance, I can't see someone like @Elfboy or @Maybe doing this.

    no one thinks they're an so/sp, because everyone desires sex. but they're there. so/sp often have the most obvious co-dependence issues. i've seen many so/sp types mistype as sx/sp, because the instincts are often so poorly understood.
    No I know several people whom immediately identify as so/sp. Also, for many of the sx last types, I've noticed that many of them say that they like sex but they really don't NEED it. You rarely (if ever) hear that from the sx doms.

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