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  1. #121
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    For me, my sx nature manifests itself as the selfish desire to know the minds of others. To peel their minds apart and get inside, and to become part of their thoughts. But I'm rather selfish, as I'll do this and give the impression that maybe I'm here to stay forever but that's not guarantee. I'll leave once I'm done with you and I won't feel bad about it if you move out of my life.
    I have the same stacking as you (5w4 sx/sp) and I can relate to a lot (though not all ) of what you are saying here.

    If I want to know you at all, I want to know you intimately. I want to know what it's like to be you. But that doesn't mean I want intimacy, and it certainly doesn't mean I'm offering any sort of commitment. It's driven by curiosity rather than affection. Sometimes affection happens as a result of that process, if I admire the person, but just as often disillusionment or indifference happens.

    I may not be able to hold on to people well, but I don't really need to either.
    Was it your intention to dump this guy completely, or were you just preoccupied with new interests? I get the latter, the former I don't really understand. I can't bring myself to dump anyone unless they consistently behave like an asshole.

    That said, the neediness thing is wearing. And if someone responded in that way (falling to pieces) I can understand why you would pull back. People who need constant reassurance and interaction become draining. It's actually more selfish to lean on someone in that way, despite what people are saying here. Yes, it might be normal, but that doesn't make it healthy. The healthiest way of being, I think, is much the way you are - open with everyone, not burdening them with your expectations and not allowing them to burden you with theirs. The problem (as someone pointed out to me recently) is that being very self-sufficient, one often attracts deeply needy people, who feed off your strength and try to sap you dry. And if you have issues with guilt, sometimes you allow them to do that for too long and just end up resentful and frustrated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    the INTP-style part of me (vs the SX aspect) very much is capable, especially with other INTPs, of being in intense conversations and deep sharing, yet then separating and not seeing other for long periods of time without much distress or desire to get together even if we had loved being together.

    And then as soon as we are within proximity again, it's like we never left.
    This is one of the best things about INTPs. Out of sight, doesn't have to mean out of mind. Giving someone the space to move away and do other things without reproaching them for "neglecting" you is healthy. I don't have a problem leaving people behind, because I don't need to have them in front of me all the time for them to matter to me. Once the connection is forged, it's there for good. I think not being needy makes you a better friend. Because I can advise and support the other person unselfishly, without giving any attention to what I might want. If I find myself becoming too attached, it's a signal to pull back, because what I'm actually doing is trying to assert my own desires - to take more than I'm prepared to give.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #122
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    ^ Interesting post Morgan

    Enneagram 1 (don't think much of the wing theory) SX/SP. I'm pretty sure that SX is quite dominant over SP. SO doesn't really register at all

    I may provide something more detailed later if I feel like it.
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  3. #123
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I have the same stacking as you (5w4 sx/sp) and I can relate to a lot (though not all ) of what you are saying here.

    If I want to know you at all, I want to know you intimately. I want to know what it's like to be you. But that doesn't mean I want intimacy, and it certainly doesn't mean I'm offering any sort of commitment. It's driven by curiosity rather than affection. Sometimes affection happens as a result of that process, if I admire the person, but just as often disillusionment or indifference happens.
    Yep, I agree that it has to do with my personal curiosity, and when I want to get to know someone it's directly because I enjoy the effect their interaction has on me and would like to follow it up to see how deep it goes.

    Was it your intention to dump this guy completely, or were you just preoccupied with new interests? I get the latter, the former I don't really understand. I can't bring myself to dump anyone unless they consistently behave like an asshole.

    That said, the neediness thing is wearing. And if someone responded in that way (falling to pieces) I can understand why you would pull back. People who need constant reassurance and interaction become draining. It's actually more selfish to lean on someone in that way, despite what people are saying here. Yes, it might be normal, but that doesn't make it healthy. The healthiest way of being, I think, is much the way you are - open with everyone, not burdening them with your expectations and not allowing them to burden you with theirs. The problem (as someone pointed out to me recently) is that being very self-sufficient, one often attracts deeply needy people, who feed off your strength and try to sap you dry. And if you have issues with guilt, sometimes you allow them to do that for too long and just end up resentful and frustrated.
    No, I believe the former takes an active effort that I really don't have the energy/malice for. It was more that I was, like you said, preoccupied with new people and a new environment. So, while I wouldn't have had a problem if two years down the road he had tried to reconnect, the fact that I knew of the reaction he had would have changed how I approached him and the friendship. Sort of like when a child realizes for the first time that he can break his favorite toy. I'd have been too conscious of that new...fragility that I thought he had. Part of me growing up a bit has been identifying how I affect people, and determining where and if I have some kind of responsibility. I don't notice how many people get caught in my wake naturally.



  4. #124
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    If I want to know you at all, I want to know you intimately. I want to know what it's like to be you. But that doesn't mean I want intimacy, and it certainly doesn't mean I'm offering any sort of commitment. It's driven by curiosity rather than affection. Sometimes affection happens as a result of that process, if I admire the person, but just as often disillusionment or indifference happens.
    That part really struck a chord in me. I'm not sure how SX crosses the full enneagram spectrum of the nine archetypes, but I'm wondering if, in the Fives, it manifests itself like this.

    I can show more affection and even feel warm toward someone -- I genuine like people as well as being curious (then again my Four wing is only a few points under the Five) -- but I tend to equate intimacy = knowledge as opposed to some other people who I know define it differently, and there is no commitment aside from our commitment to be honest and open. I just want them to be open with me when we talk, but I don't expect quantities of their time or physical closeness just because they bared all of their secrets to me and me them. I think it has sort of shot me in the foot with other sorts of people, because they see intimacy as something more binding and read my distance as not caring about them as a person.

    This is one of the best things about INTPs. Out of sight, doesn't have to mean out of mind. Giving someone the space to move away and do other things without reproaching them for "neglecting" you is healthy. I don't have a problem leaving people behind, because I don't need to have them in front of me all the time for them to matter to me. Once the connection is forged, it's there for good. I think not being needy makes you a better friend. Because I can advise and support the other person unselfishly, without giving any attention to what I might want. If I find myself becoming too attached, it's a signal to pull back, because what I'm actually doing is trying to assert my own desires - to take more than I'm prepared to give.
    Yeah, this is one of the things that bit me in the ass during my long relationship with an ISFJ. The expectations were very different, and my need to give and receive autonomy was read as "not caring" or "indifferent" to my partner.

    I think nowadays there is some more flex room there. That last sentence of yours above... that was my original feeling in my 20's, but it has become tempered somewhat because I know others expect me to engage more if I am in a committed relationship (such as marriage, or an established friendship), and I'm more flexible on that point... but I am still wary about using someone for my own benefit even accidentally and infringing on their autonomy.

    I just recently ended a relationship with an F, and it's funny because I think based on behavior he was looking more for a back and forth thing at the end just to reaffirm I cared about him despite the breakup and while I wanted to be sensitive to that, at the same time I felt a need to be wary about me not letting him go enough; one of the primary contributors to the ending was because I felt too attached to him without the ability to make an official commitment, and I felt it was hindering him from moving on with his life and doing things he frankly needed to get down in order to be happy and successful.

    So how I felt didn't matter even if I sensed desires in me for the relationship, it was more about protecting him from any over-attached desires in me, and freeing him and myself in the process... but my desire to stay at least in deep knowledge of him now had to be sacrificed because it hurts him too much to share deeply with me and yet for us not to be together, so he needs space from me and now communication has been sundered.

    Just weird seeing it all play out like that as per the discussion.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  5. #125
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I have the same stacking as you (5w4 sx/sp) and I can relate to a lot (though not all ) of what you are saying here.

    If I want to know you at all, I want to know you intimately. I want to know what it's like to be you. But that doesn't mean I want intimacy, and it certainly doesn't mean I'm offering any sort of commitment. It's driven by curiosity rather than affection. Sometimes affection happens as a result of that process, if I admire the person, but just as often disillusionment or indifference happens.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That part really struck a chord in me. I'm not sure how SX crosses the full enneagram spectrum of the nine archetypes, but I'm wondering if, in the Fives, it manifests itself like this.

    I can show more affection and even feel warm toward someone -- I genuine like people as well as being curious (then again my Four wing is only a few points under the Five) -- but I tend to equate intimacy = knowledge as opposed to some other people who I know define it differently, and there is no commitment aside from our commitment to be honest and open.
    I don't know. You INTPs are all saying the same thing (Jock included), so it makes me wonder if it's not more a T vs F thing. For me, the intimacy is more important then the knowledge, which seems very much like an F sentiment. Also, I have tested 5w4 a lot, and cannot really relate to what you are saying on a heartfelt level, although I get it in theory, and have had snippets of it from time to time.

    Or, perhaps, it's also partly the diff between SX/SO and SX/SP. ?
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  6. #126
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Hmm, this is all very interesting. As an sp/so/sx, I think I have instinctively been very wary and mistrustful of sx doms most of my life. Especially sx/sp, because they don't do the social dance of getting to know you casually first, and don't really care about social conventions. I have a better time with T sx/sp doms, though, because they are mainly interested in my ideas, rather than mining my personal life and emotions. I'll share my ideas with any intelligent person that I don't find repulsive or boring. No big deal if we're not besties afterward. But if someone digs into my actual life, asking lots of personal questions and trying to dig into my feelings, a big wall goes up. I'm not sharing that stuff with folks who aren't my actual friends, or who aren't sticking around.

    I can relate to Jock's story, though. I think it has a lot to do with being young, and a lot to do with being INTP. We don't form emotional connections with our friends at young ages, as a whole.

    I remember being completely baffled around graduation time when everyone was just sobbing because high school was over and everyone was anticipating missing everyone else. It seemed fake to me because it wasn't anything I was feeling. I figured I'd see the people I wanted to see, and didn't really care about seeing anyone else. I realize now that the feelings were genuine to them, but it was so foreign to me at the time.

    And INTPs definitely do the thing where if you're our friend, we don't have to be in each other's faces all the time. I'm really learning to try and bridge the gap with my F friends who have different emotional requirements for their friendships. But it's something I've kind of JUST NOW clued into, and I'm in my 30s.
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  7. #127
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    To me, being so dependent on a person as to have that reaction when they are gone, is fragility.
    And therefore human.

    I have to echo Aphrodite's sentiment of being wary of SX's, particularly after reading more here on SX/SP's. I remember Jock reading about your friend in question (at least, I think it's the same friend in question) in a much earlier post and my initial reaction honestly was kinda horrified.

    I thought being SX would create more empathy or sympathy for others and understanding about the universal human need for connection and the concept of trust but in the way it has been described (at least partly) in the SX (SX/SP ?) orientation sounds like it can be frankly vampiric.

    I know that even as some kind of SX/SO combo myself I crave intimacy but I have been extremely taken aback in the past by people who seem not to care about personal boundaries or who push regardless of my obvious discomfort or reticence. The sense I got was that these people would violate my boundaries or trust but not necessarily in a malicious way, more that they are completely unaware and therefore do not care about how I feel about the matter. They are driven purely by personal curiousity.
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  8. #128
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    And therefore human.

    I have to echo Aphrodite's sentiment of being wary of SX's, particularly after reading more here on SX/SP's. I remember Jock reading about your friend in question (at least, I think it's the same friend in question) in a much earlier post and my initial reaction honestly was kinda horrified.

    I thought being SX would create more empathy or sympathy for others and understanding about the universal human need for connection and the concept of trust but in the way it has been described (at least partly) in the SX (SX/SP ?) orientation sounds like it can be frankly vampiric.

    I know that even as some kind of SX/SO combo myself I crave intimacy but I have been extremely taken aback in the past by people who seem not to care about personal boundaries or who push regardless of my obvious discomfort or reticence. The sense I got was that these people would violate my boundaries or trust but not necessarily in a malicious way, more that they are completely unaware and therefore do not care about how I feel about the matter. They are driven purely by personal curiousity.
    I think a public service message should apply to ANY type of person, thank you very much. It's not what we are per se, it's our own personal morality and how we treat others that determines whether or not we end up abusing or taking advantage of other people. Anyone of any type in any system can be dangerous in relationships.

    I think if you sense someone pushing past your boundaries and they're not responding to any pushback you're giving them, then you need to slam them to a halt and put the blast doors in place, all typing aside.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  9. #129
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    the SX (SX/SP ?) orientation sounds like it can be frankly vampiric.
    Some people like it when you suck on their neck a lil bit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I thought being SX would create more empathy or sympathy for others and understanding about the universal human need for connection and the concept of trust but in the way it has been described (at least partly) in the SX (SX/SP ?) orientation sounds like it can be frankly vampiric.
    Yes, emotional vampire is a big pitfall for sx/sp, I'd say.

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