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  1. #31
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Of course they are. If their name wasn't extrovert, it would be adjuster. Their attitude to the world is to see what there is and adjust, while introverts are self-preservers.
    If this is the case, then why do introverts exist?

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  2. #32
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    It is to have a certain amount of continuity or momentum, if you ask me. If everyone was adjusting, cultures would die very very fast.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I have just noticed some of the things you've said. That you are the one who is 'always giving' and that the conditions for an introvert to come out is 'diva-like'.
    Ah now wait a minute, I said that's how it FEELS to me, not that's how it IS, and the whole point of this thread is to figure out whether those feelings are 'just me', to encourage others to talk about their similar notions and clarify where they're in error. It's like you're determined to portray me as having an agenda of proving E's to be great and I's to smell of poop. But it's just not like that!!!

    But introverts don't want anything from you. You giving is your choice. Meeting you partway, as you would like, does not make sense to an introvert because they feel no obligation to connect with you(well, except ISJs, it seems), so it seems strange that they should even bother.

    I have never been able to understand why extroverts found introverts so arrogant and cold.
    Quote Originally Posted by iluvstellacat View Post
    I pretty much have an attitude of "I'm going to do whatever the fuck I want" most of the time and have no problem dishing that out in a very strong manner...
    But can you see how that contributes to the image of selfishness and arrogance? I don't want anything from you so fuck off? I don't care whether you need anything from me, I don't want to bother with you so fuck off and tough shit? That's quite an alien viewpoint to me... I mean whether you feel like talking or not there's such a thing as manners...

    I'm no stranger to the idea of someone trying to force me to talk when I don't want to, but I'd figure it was only courtesy to keep a person informed verbally and also to assume at first, give them the benefit of the doubt, that they're not actually meaning to irritate me but are doing so out of some misguideed idea or other. So does it really hurt to just say "I'm sorry I don't mean to ignore you, I'm just really not in the mood for X right now, I guess I'm just a bit tired, mind if I just read to myself for a bit?" And I'd be like oh yeah sure, sorry, no problem.

    Surely that's better than just rebutting someone's friendliness with signals that all seem to the E to say "get lost you idiot, I don't need you!"
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    It is to have a certain amount of continuity or momentum, if you ask me. If everyone was adjusting, cultures would die very very fast.
    Actually I tend to see it the opposite way: cultures develop and evolve and are constantly refreshed by people gradually adjusting and adapting to new circumstances and knowledge.

    But I wouldn't say it was the default attitude of the ESxJ to adjust... lol
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Actually I tend to see it the opposite way: cultures develop and evolve and are constantly refreshed by people gradually adjusting and adapting to new circumstances and knowledge.
    No, that is not opposite. We are talking about same thing here. The I is there to keep the important parts of the "old" culture and E is to find new important parts through adjustment.

    EDIT: Oh, I should have said "Without I the cultures would evolve very very fast" What I am trying to say is that the cultures need continuity for a reason. I'm sure they should not evolve as fast as an all extrovert population would.

  6. #36
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    nolla - the way you talk about your experiences sounds quite familiar, it's similar to the way myself and my close INFP friend interact, although sometimes she can be hard work or I thought so to start with, over the years we've adjusted to each other and I'm now aware that I shouldn't take it personally if she's just not in a talking mood and she's also learned how to tell me she's not in the mood rather than just sit and stare, when she used to do that it made me feel like I must've just said something really wrong or stupid lol

    I can usually tell the difference though between someone who genuinely just doesn't want to talk and is happy sitting slightly aside, and someone who actually does want to participate but doesn't know how to make the first move, as it were, to join in. I can tell when someone's sitting there with their head full of things they want to say and thoughts they want to communicate but they just don't know how to jump in.

    If it's the first case I am quite happy to leave them be, if it's the second case, I try to help them get to say what they think. And then they're often surprised when they find that the group does listen and understand what they say!

    edit - but are you sure you're not confusing I/E with NP/SJ?
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  7. #37
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Ah now wait a minute, I said that's how it FEELS to me, not that's how it IS, and the whole point of this thread is to figure out whether those feelings are 'just me', to encourage others to talk about their similar notions and clarify where they're in error. It's like you're determined to portray me as having an agenda of proving E's to be great and I's to smell of poop. But it's just not like that!!!
    I can just smell the bias coming off of you. The problem is that the vast majority of extraverts think this way and believe this is what is rather than an opinion. And this is why those extraverts smell of poop.

    But can you see how that contributes to the image of selfishness and arrogance? I don't want anything from you so fuck off? I don't care whether you need anything from me, I don't want to bother with you so fuck off and tough shit? That's quite an alien viewpoint to me... I mean whether you feel like talking or not there's such a thing as manners...
    I am selfish and arrogant, but this has nothing to do with my introversion. I'm also terribly immature so the only tool I have at my disposal to seem polite is restraint. My manners involve biting my tongue so that I don't say anything that will get me into trouble. My silence is me trying to be polite, but somehow it's construed as rudeness of the highest order!

    I'm no stranger to the idea of someone trying to force me to talk when I don't want to, but I'd figure it was only courtesy to keep a person informed verbally and also to assume at first, give them the benefit of the doubt, that they're not actually meaning to irritate me but are doing so out of some misguideed idea or other. So does it really hurt to just say "I'm sorry I don't mean to ignore you, I'm just really not in the mood for X right now, I guess I'm just a bit tired, mind if I just read to myself for a bit?" And I'd be like oh yeah sure, sorry, no problem.

    Surely that's better than just rebutting someone's friendliness with signals that all seem to the E to say "get lost you idiot, I don't need you!"
    I have an edge to my voice that somehow I cannot control. If I say anything, it will automatically be construed as mood because of the tone. Therefore I shut up. My body language and reputation usually preceeds me, whether I like it to or not.

    With extroverts who think this way automatically and have no desire to think beyond these thoughts, well... my life becomes impossible.

    The question is, is it better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought an asshole, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt?
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  8. #38
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    But can you see how that contributes to the image of selfishness and arrogance? I don't want anything from you so fuck off? I don't care whether you need anything from me, I don't want to bother with you so fuck off and tough shit? That's quite an alien viewpoint to me... I mean whether you feel like talking or not there's such a thing as manners...
    See my second post

    I'm no stranger to the idea of someone trying to force me to talk when I don't want to, but I'd figure it was only courtesy to keep a person informed verbally and also to assume at first, give them the benefit of the doubt, that they're not actually meaning to irritate me but are doing so out of some misguideed idea or other. So does it really hurt to just say "I'm sorry I don't mean to ignore you, I'm just really not in the mood for X right now, I guess I'm just a bit tired, mind if I just read to myself for a bit?" And I'd be like oh yeah sure, sorry, no problem.
    I actually do this, but mostly for people I know or perceive as someone I'd like to deal with when I have the energy.

    Surely that's better than just rebutting someone's friendliness with signals that all seem to the E to say "get lost you idiot, I don't need you!"
    There are times when I actually do feel that way and want to send that signal.
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  9. #39
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I can just smell the bias coming off of you. The problem is that the vast majority of extraverts think this way and believe this is what is rather than an opinion. And this is why those extraverts smell of poop.
    LOL well I never claimed that I wasn't starting from a point of bias, of course everyone starts from a point biased by their own experiences. But I am not only acknowledging that my experience is not exhaustive or comprehensive but also trying REALLY HARD to put that aside and be open and see the other side and hoping others will do the same. An awful lot of introverts, too, behave as the bolded part of what you said describes.

    I am selfish and arrogant, but this has nothing to do with my introversion.
    Well I'm glad we can see eye to eye on that, I'm also selfish and arrogant but I'm not even introverted

    I'm also terribly immature so the only tool I have at my disposal to seem polite is restraint. My manners involve biting my tongue so that I don't say anything that will get me into trouble. My silence is me trying to be polite, but somehow it's construed as rudeness of the highest order!
    OK well that was actually very revealing, I appreciate that. That's again though, not a position unique to introverts. I often spend long periods biting my tongue. But usually it's when a person is actually being a real ass and I just don't want to cause trouble for the sake of other, decent people who are present. It's not because I'm not capable of thinking pleasant thoughts about a person that can be expressed lol

    I have an edge to my voice that somehow I cannot control. If I say anything, it will automatically be construed as mood because of the tone. Therefore I shut up. My body language and reputation usually preceeds me, whether I like it to or not.
    Ah, now this I relate to a lot. It used to be the same way with me ALL the time, and even to this day sometimes I find myself strangely fully aware that I'm giving off some vibe that isn't what I actually feel, and it makes people dislike me. It's usually only with hindsight that I realise I was being defensive because I was nervous for some reason.

    With extroverts who think this way automatically and have no desire to think beyond these thoughts, well... my life becomes impossible.
    Yes, that's frustrating I know. But just as you can say your immaturity and arrogance isn't to do with introversion, I can say that bigotry and narrow mindedness are by no means a natural or inevitable by-product of extraversion!

    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    There are times when I actually do feel that way and want to send that signal.
    Me too. Those times are pretty rare though... I mean if you were a person who by default resents, begrudges and hates most interaction that you ever have with human beings, I think it'd be safe to say you were the problem, not the people or what they were doing lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    That's exactly what I was trying to say... that I feel exactly the same way you described, but with the roles reversed. Interesting, huh? It's like a mirror thing.
    EXACTLY. That's what I was thinking, which made me start the thread. I want to explore both sides of the mirror and see if they can't be reconciled, since I start from a default point of assuming that people aren't being annoying on purpose!
    Last edited by MacGuffin; 09-01-2008 at 02:05 PM. Reason: merged posts
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  10. #40
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Substitute, you should only settle for graciousness when you make the effort to reach out to someone. You deserve no less.

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