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  1. #91
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Fuck this thread I am done, everything you has said to me has demonstrated a god damn misunderstanding of my point, I know it doesn't match i never claimed that. My argument of if it doesn't match why have it at all, and making more catagories aren't gonna do shit. IN THE GOD DAMN FUCKING TITLE I EXPLICITLY SAID IT DOES NOT INCLUDE TRANS!!! So yeah i got angry cuz you aren't getting what i'm trying to say you're claiming how we're out to get you. when truth is you're making yourself look like an asshole all on your own.


    and hate your personality and want to opress you. i want to oppress you personally, because quite frankly you suck. other trans that I am friends with I don't want to, so maybe sometimes its not what you id your self as but your personality

    btw yupp is a joke from people telling my type unsolicitly all the fucking time on here. it's a mockery of that dumbass.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  2. #92
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    As far as I'm concerned this problem is more due to information standards than anything else.

    You have a blank to write your name on a form, yes? Well, what's the point of check boxes then? Pure convenience. Convenience for the person filling the form so they don't have to write a typical answer, and convenience for the entity that will store or use the information.

    However, there's a continuum here were when it comes to the practical application of information theory, there's sort of a parabolic curve for the utility of check boxes vs. fill-the-blank. If the info is only of trivial use then there's really no point in making check boxes for it and you might as well have a blank to fill in. On the other hand if the info is incredibly nuanced, check boxes may not be sufficient because they don't achieve a high enough resolution (or are too computationally expensive to achieve high resolutions)

    Basically check boxes are like old 8 bit video game graphics. Each box makes a pixel and gives you a 'picture' BUT you can only get certain kinds of pictures from check boxes. If the information which doesn't fit in that picture is ever relevant, then you have a computational hurdle.
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  3. #93
    Suave y Fuerte BadOctopus's Avatar
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    What must it be like to perceive threats everywhere and take offense at everything? It must be so exhausting.
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  4. #94
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entropic View Post
    Yeah, this is what happens when cis people try to understand, especially cis people who are clearly cognitively undualized. The simplest way to understand it is to compare it to something that you think should be or not be there. If you lost an arm, wouldn't you still have an innate experience that the arm should be there, be a part of you? Or similarly, if you somehow began to develop a gigantic zit on your face, I'm pretty that you at should level would feel that it should not be there. Gender dysphoria operates the same way but on a much more gigantic scale. You don't feel that your physical bits match your internally felt experience, at least when it comes to transsexuals. For other people, it can just be a discomfort with social roles and expectations. It largely depends on the person since being trans comes in a wide spectrum. Some people realize they are actually happy with the way their body works but are unhappy with social gender roles. Some people realize it's both. Some people realize they are fine with the gender role they actually inhabit but do not like their bodies aka butch/femme people.
    Perhaps my take on gender dysphoria stems from a reluctance to view it as a disorder or illness. Considering how you describe it, however, there seems to be rather little chance for most transgender people to live happy lives without major changes to the bodies they were born with. Although nature obviously delivers malfunctioning products, I generally prefer to think that, under congenial circumstances, people have the capacity to be fine without such drastic measures. I will take your testimony into account, of course. Maybe @Jennifer can shine her light on the matter as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entropic View Post
    The point is to understand that physical sex isn't the end all to categorize and shouldn't be. Your thinking is erroneous since you equalize "being a boy" with "having a penis", since you are only categorizing based on the physical dimension. When trans people say, "I feel like a boy", they don't just mean the social part. It's more than that and it's an experience I don't think a cis person can ever understand unless we reverse the question and say, "how do you know that you are X?" Likely because you, at some level, identify with X because it makes sense to you and there is no internally felt experience of contradiction between your body and your sense of self.
    To say my thinking is erroneous 'since you equalize "being a boy" with "having a penis", since you are only categorizing based on the physical dimension' is to completely miss the point of my post. Since you have a record of getting things wrong, I am going to wait if there are more misunderstandings or questions before I attempt yet another explanation. To you, I suggest to read my posts again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entropic View Post
    Also, I would encourage you to stop use the term "shemale" as it's a term explicitly used in porn and is a largely derogatory term to use in order to refer to MtF individuals and the like.
    I take it you can appreciate that 'shemale' fit the 'male, female' line much better than 'hermaphrodite'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entropic View Post
    It also seems that you are woefully uneducated on the subject in the sense that you operate on a binary logic wherein you seem to think that a trans person will always transition to the opposite gender expression assigned at birth; that is not so. There are plenty of non-binary people who may feel comfortable living as the gender identity assigned to them but still feel that their internal bodily experience does not match their idea of who they are, like so:

    The fact of the matter is that I proposed 'two billion shades' of gender for every possible sex, which is a far cry from being binary. Using the classic male-to-female transition as an example is just that, an example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entropic View Post
    But yeah, I'm done with this thread. It's pretty clear it boils down to an issue of cis people trying to "get" trans people and that there's no way you'll get it until you gain some actual experiential understanding of the world outside of your minds. And I am not going to sit here and guide you, that's for sure.
    I believe nobody asked you to.
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  5. #95
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    For my two cents:

    I would appreciate if ALL OF YOU would focus on the actual thread topic and not purposefully derail this into a discussion of "Trans issues" and gender dysphoria when the title of this thread clearly stated that that was not the topic.

    It took a slight detour in the middle due to bathroom issues, which can be applicable to anyone regardless of why they identify with another gender, so that wasn't a bad thing, but now it's been going south and causing problems.

    Thanks for your help in keeping this thread on track.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #96
    Pubic Enemy #1 Crabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    This is essentially the same question that people used to have about gay marriage. The answer being, we can't know that they're sincere about their gender identity -- but we have never known that they're sincere, so in that respect nothing would change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Since there are probably as many XX females that are mistaken for XY men (at least with clothes on), as trans females that use a given sports club bathroom, it sounds like they've chosen that statement as a more workable standard than taking blood samples and/or inspecting driver's licenses at the door (each of which has its own problem) or some other equally flawed solution.

    The statement of course goes on to note why she actually got kicked out:


    Still, when it comes down to self-identification, yeah, there's gonna be some kerfluffle in the United States (which has always drawn some sharp gendering lines) while all of this butts heads and works itself out. I expect us to be adding more unisex bathrooms over time, with more stalls, for one. (You'll see single-person bathrooms in some restaurants doing this now -- they'll have two unisex bathrooms rather than a male and female. But our old bathroom "infracture" was always very gender regimented.)
    ahh....i see.

    i've never been one to keep up with the kardashians, but i'm curious - what is bruce jenner? i hope this isn't off-topic; but i don't really understand what the topic is. i guess i'm trans-ignorant.


  7. #97
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixie sticks View Post
    ahh....i see.

    i've never been one to keep up with the kardashians, but i'm curious - what is bruce jenner? i hope this isn't off-topic; but i don't really understand what the topic is. i guess i'm trans-ignorant.

    the thing is i don't consider trans non-binary, whether or not other people do or don't, it does not make sense, as trans is still a two gender system, what i was talking about are those who don't fit into either catagory, which i believe exist but the number of terms keep getting creating where it's like enough, male, female, trans, both, none. there perfect .it's not getting rid of self expression because those are pretty broad categories. but trans it's like you are physically male but emotionally female or switched, still two gender system still binary since binary is two.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  8. #98
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    The point is to erase all categories except the ones which people, for better or worse, are kind of naturally programmed to be curious about: penis or vagina. If we do away with gender, not feeling like a boy can be a natural expression of being a boy, that is, of having a penis. In other words, it becomes meaningless to say 'feel like a boy', which, I believe, is just another way of saying 'feel like I think most boys feel' anyway. 'Two billion shades of male, female, and shemale' was supposed to signify individual treatment, not 'being treated as a boy', a monochrome representative of one of two (or three) possible personality patterns.
    This isn't going to happen. In an ideal world I can see it, but here gender isn't going anywhere.
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  9. #99
    Pubic Enemy #1 Crabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    the thing is i don't consider trans non-binary, whether or not other people do or don't, it does not make sense, as trans is still a two gender system, what i was talking about are those who don't fit into either catagory, which i believe exist but the number of terms keep getting creating where it's like enough, male, female, trans, both, none. there perfect .it's not getting rid of self expression because those are pretty broad categories. but trans it's like you are physically male but emotionally female or switched, still two gender system still binary since binary is two.
    quite the conundrum, indeed. i'll just call people by their names and shirk these silly labels.
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  10. #100
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Well, the OP here is rather vague. The idea of which check boxes regarding gender should appear on forms was mentioned. Then there was the statement, "I mean also the special treatment, like no one's gonna know unless you tell them i've totally lost my train of thought so there was more". I have been mentioning this in the context of other groups because we have seen these issues before. We have now, for instance, much more variation in the race and ethnicity boxes than we ever used to, presumably because people in the "none of the above" category asked for it. More and more we have people who wish to check multiple boxes. We have more boxes for religion, for marital status, for employment status, and other demographic properties. Seems in the case of gender, we can learn from these experiences. At the same time, the whole system begs the question: when, if at all, should we even be asking these questions? What is the purpose of asking? Nosiness? Government control? Desire to understand the demographic makeup of various locales, careers, economic groups, etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Entropic View Post
    That was never the point, whether others experience it or not or how others experience their identity and whatever. The point is to understand that it is important to them and that it causes pain. Why it does so or what triggers or generates it, all that is largely irrelevant.

    Can you give ONE example of where such entitlement occurs? And why this notion of entitlement is somehow worse than any other form of entitlement people can experience when people make claims to have parts of their identity respected?

    There are paranoid trans folks out there, but paranoia isn't unique or explicit to being transgender. You will find the same attitude in a wide range of individuals who will react the same way but to other aspects of their identity e.g. religion, what have, whatever they hold important to their sense of self.

    So? The world at large, in many cases, when it comes to trans people, is out to get them. The entire society itself is built against you. It is evidently clear here, that you do not realize the extremity of how deep this goes, and how much it takes to go against the status quo. For most trans people, just being able to pick a public restroom they see fit can pose direct threat to their being, and for people who feel shoehorned to pick between a choice that they don't identify with, that's also largely unnecessary.

    Trans people do not seek to be special snowflakes, nor do most trans people operate on that people are automatically ill-intended. You cannot, however, blame trans people for turning jaded when the entire society they live in work so hard to deny them their own experience and their rights to self-expression.
    This was my point: that there is a commonality in the experience of everyone who is ostracised, judged, or persecuted for being different. Some of those so affected will come to see everyone as potentially hostile, every mistake as intentional; many will not. Yes, it looks like the world is out to get transpeople; just as it was out to get blacks, women, Jews, gays, Armenians, and the disabled at one point or another, and in many places, perhaps still is. On the Everyday Sexism thread awhile back, there was discussion of the many small ways women are belittled or marginalized each day, as well as the notion that we should speak up in these cases rather than just let them roll of our backs in the interests of getting along. This is the "no one's going to know unless you tell them" part. Many well-intentioned men don't realize the effects of the small things they say and do. And yes, I have seen plenty of women complain about this to other women rather than speak up to the men actually doing it. I suspect the same applies to comments and actions involving other human distinctions, including those of gender identity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entropic View Post
    Get the experience. Get out in the real world. Feel it, realize that it feels real and deals with actual real people. That's how you get it. Not sitting and observing from an armchair and think you "get" it through intellectual masturbation.
    Unless I suddenly wake up some morning with gender identity issues, the most I will ever be able to do on that specific topic is observe. You can dismiss all the experiences I do have as irrelevant, or accept that there is some commonality of experience among every form of bullying, hostility, or discrimination based on our individual characteristics, whatever they may be. While the first approach might feel satisfying in the moment, it is not realistic, or constructive in the long run.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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