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  1. #51
    Anew Leaf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    "Language is irredeemably sexist. For one thing, women can’t be virtuous. A virtue is that which is proper to a man. The Latin for man is vir, and virtus is the Latin word for manliness. Virtue is basically the same thing as virility. So if a woman were to be virtuous she would become a man-woman, which is a frightening idea. A man-woman might be so bold as to have her own opinions. She might even express them, at which point she would become a virago. To be fair, virago was originally a word for a heroic woman; but that’s still rather sexist, as it implies that heroism is a purely manly quality. " ~Mark Forsyth
    I posit that I am what I am regardless of language used to describe me. Air still has oxygen regardless if the lungs clutching it know it to be oxygen or not.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Biology.... I'm inclined to think that very little gender differences are based on biology. The human body has 23 chromosomes, only one of which has anything to do with sex. I'm sure this is vastly over-simplifying, but how different could men and women inherently be if there is only 1/23rd of something that is actually "different"?

    I know that's genetics for idiots, but given that no one has yet been able to map genes to psychology completely, it's a reasonable assumption to make.

    The discussion now seems to be centering on the fact that people are capable of adapting to a more male or female style. This doesn't imply that the male/female style isn't T/F, however. Every Thinker supposedly has a Feeling side and vice versa, so I suspect that when this adapting occurs, they are merely using the "opposite" function. The relevant question is if the women who are Thinkers feel as out of step in a "male communication style" environment as the women who are Feelers. I suspect that if this were to be polled, the answer would be no.

    I can tell you that I feel very odd in a place where every post has 15 smilies, but I'm sure I could post those smiles if I needed to. If someone is using a lot of them, I do tend to adapt and start using those as well. I also have found I feel very odd and out of place in social environments with a lot of NF men. The things I say seem to bump up and offend the NF men just as they might with the women female communication style environment described above. I cannot seem to avoid causing offense or making faux paus. (Of course, in those days, I was less comfortable with my Intuition, so maybe I'd do better these days.)

    Also, I found something relevant on the socionics Wiki.... they've mapped the judging/rational functions to communication styles. (Feeling is called Ethics so it doesn't get confused with emotions here.) I wish there weren't so many weird translation issues here, but my communication style, as an introverted Thinker, is "cold-blooded" which makes sense. Introverted feelers are '"sincere." Extraverted feelers are "passionate", while extraverted thinkers are "firm."

    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...ication_styles

    Aren't all four of those terms gendered? And, no surprise, the feminine-sounding qualities of "sincere" and ''passionate" are linked to Feeling, while "cold-blooded" and "firm" are linked to Thinking.
    Im a feeler and don't use 15 smilies in my posts. In fact I think it's degrading in many cases, like low self-esteem more than feeling like "don't take little ol me seriously I just want peoples to like me."

    I guess I can see why two or three people called me Istj for that reason, but I don't want to soften my blows with smiley bs unless I really mean it. Its like I wouldn't want people to head pat me that much, like im one of those feeble minded assholes that over use smilies.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I don't understand this last paragraph. Wouldn't the appropriateness of providing comfort depend significantly on the topic of the thread - e.g. someone venting about personal troubles vs. discussing some political topic? By irrationality do you mean subjectivity, and why would this be connected with trying to make others feel better? When I am speaking subjectively, it is going to be rooted much more directly in my own personal experiences.

    I agree about the gender-based acculturation. Do you get those negative reactions ("bitch", etc.) IRL also, or mainly online? It is not something I have experienced. Finally, what do you mean by a conversational tone - more informal or casual? How would you describe the opposite tone that men would take: professional, formal, business-like?


    Again, do you see this IRL as well?


    Thanks for the reference. It looks fascinating - but quite long, and will certainly address many of my questions, though likely prompt more. Seeing correlation of gender and language as culturally based makes sense, and viewing it as a statistical reality rather than a definitive conclusion about individuals is what I would expect. I still see significant correlation with T and F, which explains why F men and T women often feel out of step with expectations for their gender; their "gender culture" to use the paradigm of the reference. I know I feel this quite strongly. I will no doubt have more comments after reading some of the papers.


    I don't see the contradiction. First, the statement is qualified by "sometimes" and "often", implying that sometimes both men and women can adjust their typical gender-based style to conform to the situation. The conventions one is raised with can become deeply rooted, though. It is why even those of us (men and women) who try the most to be inclusive and unbiased will every now and then slip up, allowing some unconscious reflex to surface. At best we will see it for what it is, and know better next time. Someone with less awareness won't even do that. It is not surprising, then, that both men and women will sometimes stick with their prevailing gendered style, even when not suited to the circumstances. The image of a man just "calling a spade a spade" in a group of painfully polite women, or a woman introducing "feminine touches" in an all-male enviroment should be familiar, and are often the basis for humor in entertainment and fiction, precisely because the audience understands the cultural contradiction.
    No of course I don't see it as much irl ( people feel safer to be bigoted on line) except amongst the lowest class, who I have a feeling I've had more personal exposure to than you, which is why I have heard the word bitch more.

    Only online are middle class sexists so uncouth outside of dysfunctional relationship arguments.

    Im also more probing and dramatic and emotive than you. Your tone some times borders on coldly robotic. Of course sexist men feel more comfortable being irrational and emotive with ne, there by using words like that more often.

    I create a space for people to free their monsters. Like a therapeutic performance artist of the internet.

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    Yes I saw what I did there. I typed ne instead of me.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    I don't have any giant insights but I do notice I prefer talking to women over men, especially for socializing. This isn't entirely sexual, as it seems like I get along better with women even if I don't find them attractive, they're lesbian, etc.

    Might be as simple as social conditioning, but hey, it works - I think women are better at socializing, in general. Or maybe I'm just more comfortable socializing with them. Hard to say.



    re: class, language, and culture:

    I think lower classes can have much different concepts of gender roles. They can be both more patriarchal and misogynistic in some ways (and yes I've heard men call women bitch or simply 'woman' in a tone that very much suggests hierarchy), but I'd also note the presence of great matriarchs who hold a lot of power, and they don't do so in a way that just seems to ape being masculine, but they do so simply as an expression of who they are/social position as a woman. You'll see them getting "yes Ma'am"-ed with great deference and respect, and they can be as territorial as men are about their social position and relationships.

    This isn't necessarily the province of just the lower class, but it does seem more pronounced in those realms as far as I can tell.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  6. #56
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    I don't have any giant insights but I do notice I prefer talking to women over men, especially for socializing. This isn't entirely sexual, as it seems like I get along better with women even if I don't find them attractive, they're lesbian, etc.

    Might be as simple as social conditioning, but hey, it works - I think women are better at socializing, in general. Or maybe I'm just more comfortable socializing with them. Hard to say.
    Probably the latter. Or, at least women are better at socializing a certain way. If you like this style, you will enjoy their company. I do not. I dislike socializing with most women, but also the large number of men who focus on sports, cars, etc. Yes, this means I don't like most socializing, but I find men are more likely to want to discuss the topics I enjoy, in a way I find comfortable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    re: class, language, and culture:

    I think lower classes can have much different concepts of gender roles. They can be both more patriarchal and misogynistic in some ways (and yes I've heard men call women bitch or simply 'woman' in a tone that very much suggests hierarchy), but I'd also note the presence of great matriarchs who hold a lot of power, and they don't do so in a way that just seems to ape being masculine, but they do so simply as an expression of who they are/social position as a woman. You'll see them getting "yes Ma'am"-ed with great deference and respect, and they can be as territorial as men are about their social position and relationships.
    One thing about the lower class is that they are forced to experience the economic value of women. In poor families, the women have to work, and work hard. Notions of women as weaker, less capable, needing to be put on a pedestal, etc. are debunked regularly. Women lead and hold together many poor familes where the father is absent. None of this is really an advantage, but it gives women roles and responsibilities that they can more easily avoid in middle class or even wealthy families.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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