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  1. #11
    Member Catharsis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post
    i was more social, tried to distract myself from my problems more, more hedonistic, had more energy. i think i spend a lot more time in my head now, i want to be alone more, i don't reach out to people as much. just withdrawn i guess. i don't know, it could be other factors too. i think a lot of the lack of energy comes from smoking too much weed, when i take a break from it i'm all jumpy and high-strung.
    Yes, I can relate a bit. I'm withdrawn and melancholic by default, with outbursts of energy and hyperactivity every now and then. I think a lot of it has to do with my shame and envy. When I feel envious of something I find ideal and think that I can never achieve the object of my desire, I can easily surrender to pain and go into isolation. However, trying to counteract the shame has proven to launch me into a more counterdepressive stance, when I notice that I'm actually moving towards my goal and instead of being only depressed I can become optimistic and driven. It's just that I have to watch carefully since I easily fall into the trap of extreme sadness and impaired action.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Jessica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catharsis View Post
    Tell me how you generally act. Do you usually submit to the pain and withdraw, experiencing feelings of low self-worth? Do you also have periods when you are more counterdepressive and if so, what is it that you are fighting, what is your source of shame, and how do you tackle it?
    I have no self-worth. Everyone's better than me at everything, I can't do anything right, and see no point in trying.

    These feelings are called a 'high point' for me.

    Counterdepressive: I tried to make things better, it didn't work, I'm more of a fuck up than ever, but I'll be damned if I'm going to look like I care.
    I have a (new) blog here.

    You should do these: JohariNohari

  3. #13
    Member Catharsis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica View Post
    I have no self-worth. Everyone's better than me at everything, I can't do anything right, and see no point in trying.

    These feelings are called a 'high point' for me.

    Counterdepressive: I tried to make things better, it didn't work, I'm more of a fuck up than ever, but I'll be damned if I'm going to look like I care.
    Is it shame and envy that is a big hindrance for you, or is it that you perceive yourself as lacking competency?

  4. #14
    Senior Member Jessica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catharsis View Post
    Is it shame and envy that is a big hindrance for you, or is it that you perceive yourself as lacking competency?
    Envy. Vast amounts of envy. For literally everyone who isn't me. It stands to reason that everyone in the world is better than me.

    Fuck competence and I have no shame.
    I have a (new) blog here.

    You should do these: JohariNohari

  5. #15
    Member Catharsis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica View Post
    Envy. Vast amounts of envy. For literally everyone who isn't me. It stands to reason that everyone in the world is better than me.

    Fuck competence and I have no shame.
    So all of these feelings stem from comparison with others who do better? At what, if you don't mind me asking?

  6. #16
    Senior Member Jessica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catharsis View Post
    So all of these feelings stem from comparison with others who do better? At what, if you don't mind me asking?
    It can be extrapolated to the small things or the big things, but it applies to nearly everyone.

    At first it was people in relationships being better than me because they're worth something to someone. Now I've been worth something to a couple people, so that doesn't apply so much, and being with someone now makes that one a backburner thought. I do apply it to my exes whenever they appear in my mind, for whatever reason: they were just too good for me and they found someone better than me, just like my current is and will someday do, most likely.

    As I'm arguably somewhere between pathetic and sub-pathetic at math, I often felt shitty about this one. I can't do math beyond a 10th grade level, and would probably struggle with that. One of the reasons I'm never going back to college is because there is no way in a blue hell I can pass even remedial math courses, and therefore the entire prospect of college is made worthless. All because, despite my other intelligences, I can't get past remedial math. Mind you, math is the one thing I put vast effort into (sometimes 12+ hours a day on the same type of problems)...

    There's also the lurking fear that I am merely of average intelligence in general and away from math. I know a lot of people would disagree, and I want to disagree, but what if? Just the thought that I could be average makes me want to immediately cease all learning, destroy all present knowledge and retreat to a small compound in the middle of the forest where I can smoke weed every day, listen to music, play music, and sleep. No books, television, or internet allowed. No phone or cellphones. I'd rather give up everything than even entertain the idea of being average.

    Things like that. Always taken to extremes.
    I have a (new) blog here.

    You should do these: JohariNohari

  7. #17
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Make sure not to confuse this with a 9. 9s are more likely to mistype as 4 than vice versa, especially when they see themselves as artists or having turbulent emotions. The thing is, they'll try to distract themselves from their emotions & regain internal peace.

    4s amplify emotion, even if they try & turn it into some badge of courage or champion others/causes representing similar feelings. And yes, I find my mindset in that frame from time to time; it may be counter-depressive but it's a little less counter-productive .

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbringer View Post
    At that time, Fours want to appear self-sufficient. They claim to be satisfied with who they are and what they have. What others have that they lack is hence useless, devoid of interest and they are happy to do without.

    Basically, depressive Fours get depressed because they are envious of the traits others have that they don't and feel flawed because of it. Counterdepressive Fours go against their envious feelings and flaunt their "flaws", rejecting modern society and standing their ground as an individualist. However, this behavior is just a ruse to hide their true feelings of loneliness, as many people are able to see. From what I've read, Marilyn Manson is a counterdepressive Four, but I wouldn't know since I'm not into his music. Another example would be schoolchildren who have a crush on someone, yet act mean to them because they can't express themselves (Helga Pataki's behavior from Hey Arnold comes to mind).
    I've bolded the most important points, IMO. 4s are extremely self-aware, especially of how phony their own image is, and so even when counter-depressive they are aware of their flaws, the act they're putting on, the negative emotions that still linger. Instead of withdrawing they just turn them into a motivating force. This goes in waves, from my observations, because it's not really "growth", but a simultaneous outward act of denial & inner self-awareness which is not stable in the long-run. The 4s need for authenticity will make them ashamed of this act eventually, and they'll probably withdraw again.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  8. #18
    Member Catharsis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Make sure not to confuse this with a 9. 9s are more likely to mistype as 4 than vice versa, especially when they see themselves as artists or having turbulent emotions. The thing is, they'll try to distract themselves from their emotions & regain internal peace.

    4s amplify emotion, even if they try & turn it into some badge of courage or champion others/causes representing similar feelings. And yes, I find my mindset in that frame from time to time; it may be counter-depressive but it's a little less counter-productive .



    I've bolded the most important points, IMO. 4s are extremely self-aware, especially of how phony their own image is, and so even when counter-depressive they are aware of their flaws, the act they're putting on, the negative emotions that still linger. Instead of withdrawing they just turn them into a motivating force. This goes in waves, from my observations, because it's not really "growth", but a simultaneous outward act of denial & inner self-awareness which is not stable in the long-run. The 4s need for authenticity will make them ashamed of this act eventually, and they'll probably withdraw again.
    For me counterdepression can also be about eradicating my sources of shame, or the part of me which is "unattractive". A motivation to become less self-conscious in order to function properly without retreating from the outside world.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    The thread title is a new name for an old theory that probably had no name.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #20
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I've only recently been conscious of feeling envy. I'm envious of people who don't have to work and have plenty of money. There are people I've known online for years and enjoyed them on groups that were focused on a subject, but seeing them on facebook with their multiple expensive purchases and the pictures of their many vacations in exotic locations, I start to hate my life with a ferocious intensity and be really pissed off at them and the world, to the point I've had to stop their feed. I can't stand to look at it. Absent this stuff to compare myself to, I'm pretty content and I feel grateful for what I have and realize there are people who would think I was really fortunate in comparison. I guess it's true to say it's a feeling of inadequacy but mostly I feel like I'm as worthy as anyone else, intrinsically, but other people have advantages that I don't, without having had to work for them. Then when I realize this is self-pity, I hate myself for being self-pitying. Then my common sense kicks in and says yeah but you really do need some time off...and to keep myself going, I get this brittle veneer and act like nothing fazes me and I don't care what anybody thinks or has or does.

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