Difference between E3 and E7?

[Azure Flame]

What are the biggest differences between E3 and E7?

 

[Amargith]

E3s tend to be more focused than E7s. E3s get in the rat race that is the world, whereas E7s tend to muck about in the world. E3s embrace hierarchy and systems in place and game them, whereas E7s create an environment that is as flat as possible hierarchy-wise and introduce fun and games as a means of distracting themselves from more serious stuff that needs doing. E3s go for praise and glory, whereas E7s go for cool. E3s will do things in a short cut dirty way if that is what the situation demands it, whereas an E7 will just have several balls in the air and move from one idea to the next, trying them all out and seeing which ones will get them to where they wanna go.

Rat race vs Jack-in-a-box

 

[Kierva]

E3s tend to be more focused than E7s. E3s get in the rat race that is the world, whereas E7s tend to muck about in the world. E3s embrace hierarchy and systems in place and game them, whereas E7s create an environment that is as flat as possible hierarchy-wise and introduce fun and games as a means of distracting themselves from more serious stuff that needs doing. E3s go for praise and glory, whereas E7s go for cool. E3s will do things in a short cut dirty way if that is what the situation demands it, whereas an E7 will just have several balls in the air and move from one idea to the next, trying them all out and seeing which ones will get them to where they wanna go.

Rat race vs Jack-in-a-box

I don't know about embracing, but I do know that I like to learn about the structure and system so that I can exploit it in every way possible. If you can cheat the system with little consequence, why not?

 

[Society]

i think this covers it:

	role:	ego:	self worth:	self confidence:	bonding tips:	trolling tips:
E3	strive to be the best players in other people's games.	"i am successful because i have become (insert title)"	seeks recognition and approval - to become someone.	prosper in success but are easily devastated by failure.	compliment them.	frame them negatively
E7	seek out how to best create their own emergent games.	"i am awesome because i am doing (what i want to do)"	explore experiences - to figure out who the fuck they are.	get bored by success but experience insight in failure.	surprise them.	tease them positively

 

[Zarathustra]

In Molina's system, 3s are 3EE (Extrinsic-Extrinsic), while 7s are 7SE (Systemic-Extrinsic).

(The other manifestation of the Extrinsic within its center is the 8, which is 8IE [Intrinsic-Extrinsic].)

As such, the 3 is entirely focused on the Extrinsic, while the 7 starts with the Systemic and moves into the Extrinsic.

 

[Typh0n]

In Molina's system, 3s are 3EE (Extrinsic-Extrinsic), while 7s are 7SE (Systemic-Extrinsic).

(The other manifestation of the Extrinsic within its center is the 8, which is 8IE [Intrinsic-Extrinsic].)

As such, the 3 is entirely focused on the Extrinsic, while the 7 starts with the Systemic and moves into the Extrinsic.

English please!

 

[Zarathustra]

English please!

Molina, a close student of Naranjo's, combines the enneagram with the Hartman Value Inventory.

The Hartman Value Inventory was developed by Robert S. Hartman, a holocaust survivor, logician, and philosopher.

It attempts to provide an objective explanation of values, and posits that there are three realms of value: the Intrinsic, the Extrinsic, and the Systemic.

Each of these realms of value correlates to one of the Enneagram's centers: Instrinsic-Gut, Extrinsic-Heart/Image, Systemic-Head.

So, all types within each center get their first letter from their center:

- 2s, 3s, and 4s are 2Ex, 3Ex, and 4Ex
- 5s, 6s, and 7s are 5Sx, 6Sx, and 7Sx
- 8s, 9s, and 1s are 8Ix, 9Ix, and 1Ix

Then, within each center, each of three three types manifests that particular center's version of one of the three value centers.

And that's where each type gets its second letter from. As such:

- 2s, 3s, and 4s are 2ES, 3EE, and 4EI
- 5s, 6s, and 7s are 5SI, 6SS, and 7SE
- 8s, 9s, and 1s are 8IE, 9II, and 1IS

Not exactly English, but the system is actually not that difficult to understand.

I continue proselytizing about it on here because Naranjo highly approved of the way in which it further clarifies and fleshes out the Enneagram system, I wholeheartedly agree with him, and, unfortunately, not many people are aware of it.

 

[Typh0n]

Molina, a close student of Naranjo's, combines the enneagram with the Hartman Value Inventory.

The Hartman Value Inventory was developed by Robert S. Hartman, a holocaust survivor, logician, and philosopher.

It attempts to provide an objective explanation of values, and posits that there are three realms of value: the Intrinsic, the Extrinsic, and the Systemic.

Each of these realms of value correlates to one of the Enneagram's centers: Instrinsic-Gut, Extrinsic-Heart/Image, Systemic-Head.

So, all types within each center get their first letter from their center:

- 2s, 3s, and 4s are 2Ex, 3Ex, and 4Ex
- 5s, 6s, and 7s are 5Sx, 6Sx, and 7Sx
- 8s, 9s, and 1s are 8Ix, 9Ix, and 1Ix

Then, within each center, each of three three types manifests that particular center's version of one of the three value centers.

As such:

- 2s, 3s, and 4s are 2ES, 3EE, and 4ES
- 5s, 6s, and 7s are 5SI, 6SS, and 7SE
- 8s, 9s, and 1s are 8IE, 9II, and 1IS

Not exactly English, but the system is actually not that difficult to understand.

I continue proselytizing about it on here because Naranjo highly approved of the way in which it further clarifies and fleshes out the Enneagram system, I wholeheartedly agree with him, and, unfortunately, not many people are aware of it.

I see. So it would be like this:

2 ExtrinsicSystemic(Intrinsic?)
3 ExtrinsicExtrinsic
4 ExtrinsicSystemic(or would it be Intrinsic?)

5 SystemicIntrinsic
6 SystemicSystemic
7 SystemicExtrinsic

8 IntrinsicExtrinsic
9 IntrinsicIntrinsic
1 IntrinsicSystemic

Does it mean the same thing as "gut center" for example? so IE would mean "gut center + heart center" etc? Are these like subcenters for the center your type already fits into?

 

[Zarathustra]

I see. So it would be like this:

2 ExtrinsicSystemic(Intrinsic?)
3 ExtrinsicExtrinsic
4 ExtrinsicSystemic(or would it be Intrinsic?)

It would be 2ES and 4EI.

Thanks for pointing that out.

I fixed it in my previous post.

I should also note: this is the one place I disagree with Molina, who puts them as 2EI and 4ES. But how you consider 2s to be the Intrinsic manifestation of the Feeling center, and for 4s to be the Systemic manifestation, as opposed to 2s being the Systemic manifestation, and 4s being the Intrinsic manifestation, I do not know. I think he was simply wrong on that part, and that knowledge of Jungian typology, and the Jungian types that tend to be 2s (EFJs], and the Jungian types that tend to be 4s [INFs], would have made that clear to him [the Intrinsic value dimension tends to be correlated with Introversion {hence, almost all 9s (9II) are introverts; almost all 3s (3EE) are extroverts; 5s (5SI) are the introverted manifestation of the Systemic/Head center; 7s (7SE) are the extroverted manifestation of that center; 6s (6SS) are the most ambiverted type of the enneagram; etc.]

5 SystemicIntrinsic
6 SystemicSystemic
7 SystemicExtrinsic

8 IntrinsicExtrinsic
9 IntrinsicIntrinsic
1 IntrinsicSystemic

Yeah, you got it.

Does I mean the same thing as "gut center" for example? so IE would mean "gut center + heart center" etc? Are these like subcenters for the center your type already fits into?

No, I wouldn't call them subcenters, nor would I call IE "gut center + heart center".

I would say the Gut Center tends to be correlated with the Intrinsic Value Dimension.

And likewise, the Heart Center tends to be correlated with Extrinsic Value Dimension.

And that, as such, 8IEs, come from the Gut Center, but manifest that in the Extrinsic Value Dimension.

It's like 8s export their gut feelings into the extrinsic, or external, world (i.e., dominating 8 behavior).

Likewise, 1ISs also come from the Gut Center, but do so primarily in the Systemic Value Dimension.

As such, 1s manifest their gut feelings into the systemic world (or world of rules, laws, and regulations).

So 8s manifest their gut in the external world (dominating), and 1s in the systemic world (moralizing).

The truly amazing part about Molina's system is how well it maps onto other triad-based systems.

In Freudian terms:

- The Intrinsic is the Id
- The Systemic is the Superego
- The Extrinsic is the Ego.

Likewise, if you know of the three Hindu Gunas:

- The Instrinsic is the Tamasic
- The Systemic is the Saatvic
- The Extrinsic is the Rajasic

Or, related to the Gunas, if you know the Taoist Yin and Yang:

- The Intrinsic is the Yin
- The Systemic is the balance of Yin and Yang
- The Extrinsic is Yang

 

[Typh0n]

Hey this makes sense. Like 8s,9s, and 1s are all gut center but 8s manifest their gut centeredness in the external world, 9s in the internal, and 1s in the world of laws,rules and systems.

 

[Zarathustra]

Hey this makes sense. Like 8s,9s, and 1s are all gut center but 8s manifest their gut centeredness in the external world, 9s in the internal, and 1s in the world of laws,rules and systems.

Exactly.

So, to bring us directly back on topic:

- 3s are 3EE
- 7s are 7SE
- 8s are 8IE

Each is its center's manifestation in the extrinsic/external world.

But 3s are from the Extrinsic/Heart center, while 7s are from the Systemic/Head center.

The specific differences this causes I leave for the mortals to flesh out.

 

[skylights]

^ Interesting.

I think the biggest difference seems to me that 7s are far more rough around the edges than 3s, who are compulsively polished. 7 will always prioritize enjoyment while 3 will always prioritize success. If they turn up looking like they just got off a rollercoaster, they're a 7.

 

[PrettyWoman]

I think the triads are also very revealing:

3s are in the heart triad and very much focused on the image they present to others while 7s are in the head triad and focused on their monkey mind activity which they are as too much fond of as 3s are of their own image.

 

[The Great One]

i think this covers it:

	role:	ego:	self worth:	self confidence:	bonding tips:	trolling tips:
E3	strive to be the best players in other people's games.	"i am successful because i have become (insert title)"	seeks recognition and approval - to become someone.	prosper in success but are easily devastated by failure.	compliment them.	frame them negatively
E7	seek out how to best create their own emergent games.	"i am awesome because i am doing (what i want to do)"	explore experiences - to figure out who the fuck they are.	get bored by success but experience insight in failure.	surprise them.	tease them positively

I agree with this. I would also like to add that 7's often are in their head a lot more than 3's.

 

[Kierva]

I agree with this. I would also like to add that 7's often are in their head a lot more than 3's.

I don't know about other 3s, but I spend a lot of time in my head comparing myself to others -- asking myself if the person I'm trying to please would like me better if I'm that other person OR asking myself what is it about me that I have that the other person doesn't, such that it puts me in a better light for the person I'm trying to please.

inb4 grass is greener on the other side

 

[The Great One]

I don't know about other 3s, but I spend a lot of time in my head comparing myself to others -- asking myself if the person I'm trying to please would like me better if I'm that other person OR asking myself what is it about me that I have that the other person doesn't, such that it puts me in a better light for the person I'm trying to please.

inb4 grass is greener on the other side

That's not what I mean by "always in their head". This should clear up what I mean. Read this article...

http://www.fitzel.ca/enneagram/triads.html

 

[mintleaf]

Molina, a close student of Naranjo's, combines the enneagram with the Hartman Value Inventory.

The Hartman Value Inventory was developed by Robert S. Hartman, a holocaust survivor, logician, and philosopher.

It attempts to provide an objective explanation of values, and posits that there are three realms of value: the Intrinsic, the Extrinsic, and the Systemic.

Each of these realms of value correlates to one of the Enneagram's centers: Instrinsic-Gut, Extrinsic-Heart/Image, Systemic-Head.

So, all types within each center get their first letter from their center:

- 2s, 3s, and 4s are 2Ex, 3Ex, and 4Ex
- 5s, 6s, and 7s are 5Sx, 6Sx, and 7Sx
- 8s, 9s, and 1s are 8Ix, 9Ix, and 1Ix

Then, within each center, each of three three types manifests that particular center's version of one of the three value centers.

And that's where each type gets its second letter from. As such:

- 2s, 3s, and 4s are 2ES, 3EE, and 4EI
- 5s, 6s, and 7s are 5SI, 6SS, and 7SE
- 8s, 9s, and 1s are 8IE, 9II, and 1IS

Not exactly English, but the system is actually not that difficult to understand.

I continue proselytizing about it on here because Naranjo highly approved of the way in which it further clarifies and fleshes out the Enneagram system, I wholeheartedly agree with him, and, unfortunately, not many people are aware of it.

Why are the members of the Attachment Group the only ones that are connected to their respective triads twice, when they're supposed to be the most detached from their triads?

For example, 9 is at the center of the gut triad, which has been labelled Intrinsic. If 9 is double-intrinsic, why are they said to be the most out of touch their gut?

 

[Zarathustra]

Why are the members of the Attachment Group the only ones that are connected to their respective triads twice, when they're supposed to be the most detached from their triads?

For example, 9 is at the center of the gut triad, which has been labelled Intrinsic. If 9 is double-intrinsic, why are they said to be the most out of touch their gut?

This is one question I've had myself, and one question for which I've never felt I had quite a sufficient answer.

I don't have a strong enough understanding of why whomever (Riso & Hudson? Others?) has posited that types at the center of their instinctual triad are the least connected with their center say this is supposedly so.

Personally, as a 6, I don't feel particularly disconnected with my thoughts.*

*I just feel like I've got tons of thoughts, and that, frankly, my thinking is more pure than, say, the thinking of a 5, which, imo, is improperly connected with their gut (i.e., my thinking is more purely systemic, and thus objective, whereas their thinking gets mixed up with their gut [i.e., the Intrinsic], and thus often becomes tainted with a lack of objectivity).

Do 9s actually feel that disconnected from their gut?

Do 3s feel that disconnected from their heart/image?

Naranjo said of Riso & Hudson that they added stuff to the theory that he didn't particularly agree with.

I don't know if this is one of those things, or what.

Also (and this is my last thought on the matter [and perhaps the answer is as simple as this]): being in the center of one's triad is like being in the eye of the hurricane -- while you might be right in the middle of it, you're, at the same time, oddly, in a certain way, not experiencing it.

 

[Elfboy]

Exactly.
So, to bring us directly back on topic:
- 3s are 3EE
- 7s are 7SE
- 8s are 8IE
Each is its center's manifestation in the extrinsic/external world.
But 3s are from the Extrinsic/Heart center, while 7s are from the Systemic/Head center.
The specific differences this causes I leave for the mortals to flesh out.

in other words
- 3s: heart>head=gut
- 7s: head>heart>gut
- 8s: gut>heart>head

I disagree with this. most 7s are head>gut>heart and most 8s are gut>head>heart (7 and 8 are the furthest distance from the heart center and the most out of touch with it)

 

[Ginkgo]

E7s cope with anxiety by starting new projects, generating ideas, and temporarily embracing the present moment. If they perceive something negative happening, they'll, at most, apply a band-aid sort of fix to it without really diving too deep into an analysis of the problem. This is a bit less prevalent in the 7w8, but only in the sense that they'll steamroll in order to start a new project.

E3s cope with negativity by making a current project seem like a positive thing, embellishing what's already there instead of actively avoiding it. 3w4s are more expressive about the negativity they perceive, as though they expect others to patch things up for them a bit in contrast with the 3w2 who will nearly go out of their way to mend a problem.

Both types tend to be extraverted and both types can almost seem oblivious of the cynical side of life, but the difference is that 7s tend to emphasize "things" and possibilities while 3s emphasize themselves and others. Most of the 7s I've known don't want to hassle with people because they'll eventually recognize that people are messy and unpredictable; perhaps they'll optimistically rationalize that people are "simple", as though human beings are so common place that they're easily understood. On the other hand, an E3 will stick with you until they feel like you've acknowledged that their efforts have merit.