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  1. #21
    Retired Nicki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    She's thanking you in that you found amusement in something that she later on deemed negative. As it it was not all for the bad.
    It's like you read my mind.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typoz View Post
    That's an odd thing to thank for.

    Anyway, don't NT types can find anything amusing in a certain light?
    I was happy that this thread wasn't useless. Am I officially an NT yet?

  3. #23
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleda View Post
    I'm interested in anything that will lead me to fame. But seriously, I like to sing but I'm average and I'm somewhat into politics but not too much. I consider myself a feminist though. I'm also a bookworm so that's why I'm interested in everything to a certain extent. I like to read anything nonfiction. I am but I'm an ENTJ regardless because Te+Ni. I really need a craft though. That's it.
    I relate to you and understand where you're coming from. I mean, I'd substitute power for fame (e8 vs e3 preference), but that's about it.

    I have a couple of thoughts on this. Like you, despite ambition and a strong drive, I was in many ways a kind of empty vessel. I had a general idea of what I liked and what I didn't like and what my strengths were, but no clear burning desire to become one thing. Our instincts are to lead and organize, but we're not necessarily particular as to what. Because to us, it really doesn't matter-- Ni renders certain principles universal.

    I think it's hard for ENTJs because we're Fi last, so our personal feelings on things can frequently be a blind spot. There have been a couple of things that have helped me develop Fi that I'd recommend for you to try. The first would be connecting with people who use Fi better than you do, explaining your problem, and asking for help. I've been blessed to have a lot of really tremendous NFPs (and even an INTJ or two) in my life who have taught me a great deal about how to navigate some of my inferior Fi issues, and I'm a lot better for it. Having a deeper appreciation for Fi will help you determine what's really in your heart, and will help you know how to attain those things in a way that's right for you.

    The second thing that has been crucial for me has been learning to meditate. Having an introspective practice like meditation helps you to figure out what's going on with yourself (Fi), and strengthen your connection to your inner guidance (Ni).

    Last bit of advice: focusing on fame is counterproductive, honestly. You should focus on simply being excellent, and recognition will automatically flow from that. If you focus on the recognition and external validation first, it fucks up your priorities, and that "empty vessel" thing we have as ENTJs will degenerate into outright hollowness. Do your best, strive as hard as you can, and shit will turn out the way it's supposed to. No more, no less.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  4. #24
    Retired Nicki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    I relate to you and understand where you're coming from. I mean, I'd substitute power for fame (e8 vs e3 preference), but that's about it.

    I have a couple of thoughts on this. Like you, despite ambition and a strong drive, I was in many ways a kind of empty vessel. I had a general idea of what I liked and what I didn't like and what my strengths were, but no clear burning desire to become one thing. Our instincts are to lead and organize, but we're not necessarily particular as to what. Because to us, it really doesn't matter-- Ni renders certain principles universal.

    I think it's hard for ENTJs because we're Fi last, so our personal feelings on things can frequently be a blind spot. There have been a couple of things that have helped me develop Fi that I'd recommend for you to try. The first would be connecting with people who use Fi better than you do, explaining your problem, and asking for help. I've been blessed to have a lot of really tremendous NFPs (and even an INTJ or two) in my life who have taught me a great deal about how to navigate some of my inferior Fi issues, and I'm a lot better for it. Having a deeper appreciation for Fi will help you determine what's really in your heart, and will help you know how to attain those things in a way that's right for you.

    The second thing that has been crucial for me has been learning to meditate. Having an introspective practice like meditation helps you to figure out what's going on with yourself (Fi), and strengthen your connection to your inner guidance (Ni).

    Last bit of advice: focusing on fame is counterproductive, honestly. You should focus on simply being excellent, and recognition will automatically flow from that. If you focus on the recognition and external validation first, it fucks up your priorities, and that "empty vessel" thing we have as ENTJs will degenerate into outright hollowness. Do your best, strive as hard as you can, and shit will turn out the way it's supposed to. No more, no less.
    I feel like that. I love to organize and strategize but I don't know what now. And that's the problem. I just want something to achieve and work towards. I feel like I'm wasting time if I'm just focusing on doing what I like to do and "discovering myself." What exactly is my problem? The fact that I really have to find something I love doing? Hmm I do have an INFP best friend. Oh okay, I see. The thing is I don't want to be blinded by my morals. I still want to remain objective as much as I possibly can. I feel like I do use Fi to a certain extent as I have deeply held inner values but that's as far as it goes. I barely know what I'm feeling if it doesn't apply to my moral system nor do I have much of a sense of self. I might try that soon. I honestly don't know how to be excellent if I don't have anything to aim for. I see. I hope so. Thanks a lot for the advice, really, it was extremely helpful.

  5. #25
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleda View Post
    I feel like that. I love to organize and strategize but I don't know what now. And that's the problem. I just want something to achieve and work towards. I feel like I'm wasting time if I'm just focusing on doing what I like to do and "discovering myself." What exactly is my problem?
    Again, I'm with you 100% here. Self-discovery is never a waste of time, however. Look, ultimately what you want to achieve is a vocation, a blending of work with personal passion. I did (and to some extent still do) what you apparently do: I held the things that I loved, that meant the most, but didn't make sense in a close and "private" kind of way. But the thing is those things may feel silly, but they're part of you, and--more to the point--you're capable of making them possible. Part of the reason knowing someone with better Fi use is valuable is that they pick up very readily on what's of value to you even when you don't feel it yourself. Sometimes I don't realize how much something means to me until it's pointed out to me, and I'm kinda like, "Oh so that's what that means."

    Hmm I do have an INFP best friend.
    Perfect. I'm sure they would be happy to help you with this.

    Oh okay, I see. The thing is I don't want to be blinded by my morals. I still want to remain objective as much as I possibly can. I feel like I do use Fi to a certain extent as I have deeply held inner values but that's as far as it goes. I barely know what I'm feeling if it doesn't apply to my moral system nor do I have much of a sense of self.
    Hmm. With this sorta thing, there really is no use for objectivity. You're going in the wrong direction if you decide what's the best vocation for yourself on an "objective" basis. It messes up the priorities, and you'll end up with something that sounds impressive but you end up one day and realize that's all it is (ask me how I know). The fact that you're asking these kinds of questions now says tremendous things about you, and also shows you're probably more self-aware than you realize. I was around your age when I decided on something for myself and spent almost ten years working towards it before I woke up one day and realized that it wasn't what I wanted. Don't let that happen to you if you can avoid it.

    I wasn't entirely clear on what you meant by being blinded by morals, but what we're talking about right now goes a little deeper than personal code. That's an element of it, and it creates the parameters for what you ultimately decide, but it's by no means all there is to it. Again, there's no wrong or right here. It's just what brings you joy and gets you in your groove. It's the purpose you feel to be worth serving.

    I might try that soon. I honestly don't know how to be excellent if I don't have anything to aim for. I see. I hope so. Thanks a lot for the advice, really, it was extremely helpful.
    Anytime. I've been meaning to start a thread on integrating the inferior anyways. I'll give you a heads up when I do.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  6. #26
    Retired Nicki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Again, I'm with you 100% here. Self-discovery is never a waste of time, however. Look, ultimately what you want to achieve is a vocation, a blending of work with personal passion. I did (and to some extent still do) what you apparently do: I held the things that I loved, that meant the most, but didn't make sense in a close and "private" kind of way. But the thing is those things may feel silly, but they're part of you, and--more to the point--you're capable of making them possible. Part of the reason knowing someone with better Fi use is valuable is that they pick up very readily on what's of value to you even when you don't feel it yourself. Sometimes I don't realize how much something means to me until it's pointed out to me, and I'm kinda like, "Oh so that's what that means."
    Hmm okay, that makes sense. Haha I feel you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Perfect. I'm sure they would be happy to help you with this.
    Definitely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Hmm. With this sorta thing, there really is no use for objectivity. You're going in the wrong direction if you decide what's the best vocation for yourself on an "objective" basis. It messes up the priorities, and you'll end up with something that sounds impressive but you end up one day and realize that's all it is (ask me how I know). The fact that you're asking these kinds of questions now says tremendous things about you, and also shows you're probably more self-aware than you realize. I was around your age when I decided on something for myself and spent almost ten years working towards it before I woke up one day and realized that it wasn't what I wanted. Don't let that happen to you if you can avoid it.

    I wasn't entirely clear on what you meant by being blinded by morals, but what we're talking about right now goes a little deeper than personal code. That's an element of it, and it creates the parameters for what you ultimately decide, but it's by no means all there is to it. Again, there's no wrong or right here. It's just what brings you joy and gets you in your groove. It's the purpose you feel to be worth serving.
    Thanks. What were you working towards? Like when your morals blind you to anything else that could threaten what you feel/think. Hmm I see. What did you do to figure out what you enjoyed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Anytime. I've been meaning to start a thread on integrating the inferior anyways. I'll give you a heads up when I do.
    That's really great to hear. I'll definitely be reading that thread. Thanks.

  7. #27
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleda View Post
    It is, and I realize that and I've tried to ignore that desire in the past year but I always wake up wanting fame. I have absolutely no idea. I've been researching for quite a while, even ignoring things that might lead me to fame, but I haven't found any career that I liked.
    Being famous is a way to have continual validation and feedback from others. It is others declaring your importance, seeing you as in some way more interesting than the general population. It means gaining continual social attention.

    Do you currently get enough attention from other people, or do you tend to feel overlooked? When a person is very young and still gaining a sense of self, it can be helpful to have others validate you, to see you as you hope to see yourself because it is difficult to just call that up from within ourselves. A desire for fame is a desire for external approval to help us see ourselves as special and unique.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleda View Post
    I see. But that wouldn't be true fame would it?
    In your culture you make the basic moral distinction between true and phoney, while in my culture we make the same distinction between amusing and boring, so the question is moot.

  9. #29
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    I achieved the goals I had when I was a kid. They were worthwhile things, but what I've learned was that the feelings I thought I would have, did not really happen.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    I achieved the goals I had when I was a kid. They were worthwhile things, but what I've learned was that the feelings I thought I would have, did not really happen.
    What were your goals?

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