# What type is the most independent and why?

#### highlander

Staff member
I value independence, by definition of working and being alone, so much that it physically hurts me and it makes me want to kill someone for it.

I am not comfortable with other's relying on me but I hate having to rely on others.

On independence:

1. Ti
2. Fi
3. Ni
4. Si
5. Ne
6. Se
7. Te
8. Fe

Je(Fe and Te) hates "Lone time".

Ji(Ti and Fi) loves "lone time".

P(Ni, Si, Ne and Se) is almost neutral but Pe(Ne and Se) is a minus on "lone time".

In reality, it's very relative to the person. (his beliefs, experiences etc.)

Part of the problem here is the ranking doesn't make sense. You can't order the functions in terms of "independence". There is too much influence between and across functions that comprise a type.

#### Aleksei

##### Yeah, I can fly.
Read the edit. No two people have the exact same life experience. It's virtually impossible unless you lock them in a small room and put them on some sort of prison-like regiment.
Well as I said, it's irrelevant to my point, so... So?

#### Thalassa

##### Permabanned
Well as I said, it's irrelevant to my point, so... So?

It isn't irrelevant to your point.

You're saying there's no personal filter to an introverted function?

You're trying to make some sort of case for Si not being individual, but that's impossible given that people's life experiences are so varying.

#### Craft

##### Probably Most Brilliant
Rorscharch is a Ti-dom (ISTP).

Could be. I lack the knowledge to argue. On the other hand, further observations would help. Your Si seems to disagree with this theory but I suggest trying to meet more Si-doms? My sister is actually one and she's not exactly the "conforming type".
Part of the problem here is the ranking doesn't make sense. You can't order the functions in terms of "independence". There is too much influence between and across functions that comprise a type.

I ordered the functions and I related them to each other adding their differing arrangements. Well, I don't know if its true but just a thought if you will.

The definition of "independence" was also vaguely established. By nature, Ni-dom's for certain are the "revolutionaries" that revolutionize our world. Does that strike as "independence" to you?

#### Aleksei

##### Yeah, I can fly.
It isn't irrelevant to your point. You're saying there's no personal filter to an introverted function?
No, I'm saying there's no personal filter to this introverted function, outside of the filter provided by the Judging function. It just collects and recalls. It doesn't express itself independently of its own experiences, thus it can't be said to be more independent than most other functions (the only possible exception being Fe). Craft claimed Si to have a similar level of independence to Ti, Ni or Fi, based solely on the fact it's introverted -- which is utterly ridiculous.

And therein lies the disadvantage of jumping into an argument halfway through.

#### Kalach

##### Filthy Apes!
But how will you promote that reality? With Te I presume? Thinking does serve but because there is Ni, there is Te. If you cannot Te(conform), you cannot fulfill the "desires" of Ni. Unless your Ni is so unconformable.

The number of times I have read a basic criticism of INTJs, that they impose arbitrary judgments...

But yeah, there is a measure of conformity to reality. It tends, however, to be along the lines of "Well, we can't do this bizarre thing this way, but I have an idea that if we bend this and crack that and that guy pulls a bit harder....." In other words, reality as it currently stands is sorted through to identify the means by which the bizarre dream, aka the new reality, will be instantiated.

And whether or not that ^ is actually true, it is certainly the perception. We, Team INTJ, take ourselves to be unlimited by reality as it stands. Welcome to Thunderdome.

#### highlander

Staff member
Perhaps you are working on a different definition of "independence"?

Theoretically, Ni-dom's, by their nature, are the most independent-minded types. This is why some people would call them "crazy". Because their Ni is filled with ideas that are hard to relate to the present reality. (as a result of inferior Se.)

I've provided a definition. What would you say "independence" means?

The following is the first sentence in Gifts Differing written by Isabel Briggs Myers and Peter Myers, in describing the INTJ personality type, "INTJs are the most independent of all the sixteen types and take more or less conscious pride in that independence."

#### Thalassa

##### Permabanned
No, I'm saying there's no personal filter to this introverted function, outside of the filter provided by the Judging function. It just collects and recalls. It doesn't express itself independently of its own experiences, thus it can't be said to be more independent than most other functions (the only possible exception being Fe). Craft claimed Si to have a similar level of independence to Ti, Ni or Fi, based solely on the fact it's introverted -- which is utterly ridiculous.

And therein lies the disadvantage of jumping into an argument halfway through.

No, I think he's right in assessing Si as being more independent than any of the extroverted functions. I think you're speaking from a place of prejudice against Si, which is much more ridiculous. He didn't place it above Fi, Ti, or Ni, which was correct...of the introverted functions, it is the least independent. However, it is still more independent than the extroverted functions.

And therein lies the disadvantage of you not really understanding what Si even is.

#### Aleksei

##### Yeah, I can fly.
How is Si more independent than Ne or Se?

That was a very poorly written riposte, by the way. Sounded like a child's retort. Just sayin'.

EDIT: I love how people toss the word "prejudice" around and think it's an argument. It's so funny.

#### Thalassa

##### Permabanned
Because Ne and Se need external stimuli to thrive.

The independence associated with NPs and SPs has more to do with Ti and Fi being primary or auxillary functions than with Ne and Se.

#### Craft

##### Probably Most Brilliant
The number of times I have read a basic criticism of INTJs, that they impose arbitrary judgments...

But yeah, there is a measure of conformity to reality. It tends, however, to be along the lines of "Well, we can't do this bizarre thing this way, but I have an idea that if we bend this and crack that and that guy pulls a bit harder....." In other words, reality as it currently stands is sorted through to identify the means by which the bizarre dream, aka the new reality, will be instantiated.

And whether or not that ^ is actually true, it is certainly the perception. We, Team INTJ, take ourselves to be unlimited by reality as it stands. Welcome to Thunderdome.
I think INTJ independence is different from INTP independence. Many INTP's conform with Fe. Therefore, it would seem to be "more conforming" than INTJ's Te which are usually purely systematical. But I guess it would really depend on what your Ni is. Whether it requires a significant amount of conformity or so radical that it could cause incredible opposition.

INTP's independence is usually a lack of care for the "goal". It's that person who criticizes a model or a person who's motivated by the process of work.

This "independence" thing seems too relative to many factors I'd rather not proceed to.

I've provided a definition. What would you say "independence" means?

The following is the first sentence in Gifts Differing written by Isabel Briggs Myers and Peter Myers, in describing the INTJ personality type, "INTJs are the most independent of all the sixteen types and take more or less conscious pride in that independence."

Independent in an INTJ way. Yet, no, I disagree if we're talking "doing work alone". Because this is quite a relative thing.

#### Aleksei

##### Yeah, I can fly.
Because Ne and Se need external stimuli to thrive.
That's one way to look at it -- I was defining independence sort of as self-identity (Si processing information in a 100% derivative manner), so I guess we're both right. I did say in my very first post here, that it all depends on how one defines independence.

#### Craft

##### Probably Most Brilliant
How is Si more independent than Ne or Se?

The reason why there's an "e" in Ne or Se is because it relies on external stimulus. It likes external "things", "people" that contributes more to their present senses or ideas.

#### highlander

Staff member
I think you're getting too wrapped up into theory on this. How many INTJs and INTPs do you know?

#### Craft

##### Probably Most Brilliant
I think you're getting too wrapped up into theory on this. How many INTJs and INTPs do you know?

I don't know. Less than 20 surely but this is irrelevant if we're only reflecting theory stuff.

Different theories will provide different things so we rely on observational experiences? If we do, then no, mine isn't sufficient to formulate a proper "pattern".

If we look at the functions however, I think it shows hints that implies effect on "independence". I have lost my interest however. Thank you and good Luck..

#### Thalassa

##### Permabanned
That's one way to look at it -- I was defining independence sort of as self-identity (Si processing information in a 100% derivative manner), so I guess we're both right. I did say in my very first post here, that it all depends on how one defines independence.

Ne and Se don't give you self-identity. They may not be as reliant upon others as Fe or Te, but Fi or Ti give you this sense of self-identity, just as an Si dom/auxes collection of experiences gives them their self-identity.

Do you actually know many Si doms?

Are you in touch with your own Si? If so, how do you experience it? Do you know?

#### Aleksei

##### Yeah, I can fly.
Are you in touch with your own Si? If so, how do you experience it? Do you know?
My Si is somewhat weak and sputtering, but I do lean on it frequently. I generally use it in support to the other three functions, especially Te (searching for evidence) and Fi (pleasant memories -- frequently some random word or a sound will evoke a song I like, which I presume is Fi + Ne + Si at work).

#### highlander

Staff member
"Though a single word cannot possibly describe any type, the word independence gives a thematic thrust to the overall drive of the INTJ. Clearly this is the force that motivates them. If they could, they would wish independence upon everyone. This drive for independence can conflict with the INTJ's need to control his or her immediate surroundings. So, colleagues and subordinates must recognize that wile independence is the ultimate goal, it is to be meted out as the INTJ deems appropriate."

From "Type Talk at Work" by Otto Kroeger and Janet Thueson

#### Kalach

##### Filthy Apes!
I think INTJ independence is different from INTP independence. Many INTP's conform with Fe. Therefore, it would seem to be "more conforming" than INTJ's Te which are usually purely systematical. But I guess it would really depend on what your Ni is. Whether it requires a significant amount of conformity or so radical that it could cause incredible opposition.

INTP's independence is usually a lack of care for the "goal". It's that person who criticizes a model or a person who's motivated by the process of work.

Sounds right.

And we haven't even heard from the ISTPs yet. They're probably off doing their own thing,

#### wildcat

##### New member
^
Introversion/Extroversion determines the affinity for "independence". Pi requires introversion and at the same time dislikes external outputs. What's about it that dislikes independence?

It's from introverted functions to judgment functions then to perceiving functions.

Independence(+):

Ti
Fi
Ni
Si

Independence(-):

Ne
Se
Te
Fe
Wrong.
There is a U-turn.

Independent
Fi
Ti
Ne
Se

Unindependent
Fe
Te
Ni
Si

Inclusion does not provide a variant.
Arrow does not turn.

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