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What type is the most independent and why?

highlander

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INTJ and INTP are both pretty independent but I think independence is more of a driving force behind the INTJ - a singularly defining characteristic. The INTPs that I've known have been more accepting of the reality of how things are. I don't know how to put this delicately but they are far more likely to suck up to others in positions of power in order to get ahead. An INTJ would be much less likely to do this. For good or for bad, the goal of the INTJ is independence. I'm not sure INTP is quite the same.
 

Craft

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Data is data. The only thing that could change is your interpretation of it, or the data itself. Si does not interpret -- it only collects and then associates, which means A is A, regardless of which Si user perceives it. Si is not Ne.

Collection comes from perception. Perception is relative to each person. Si is not simply A is A, it is a large amount of past stored information that dictates "what is" for the person. Just like how everyone can have different Ni's, everyone can have different Si's. Everyone can have different backgrounds, different beliefs, and/or tradition and/or view of the world. If a Muslim Extremist came to the United States, would you think he has Independence relative to the norm-society of the United States?

There are no "facts" here. Just popular beliefs...
 

Craft

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They seek a more controlled environment than INTPs, but are the last type to give up self-sufficiency in order to get it.

INTJ and INTP are both pretty independent but I think independence is more of a driving force behind the INTJ - a singularly defining characteristic. The INTPs that I've known have been more accepting of the reality of how things are. I don't know how to put this delicately but they are far more likely to suck up to others in positions of power in order to get ahead. An INTJ would be much less likely to do this. For good or for bad, the goal of the INTJ is independence. I'm not sure INTP is quite the same.

Theoretically, Te is an adaptive and/or systematical "conformity function" that stresses organization and collection instead of isolation.
 

OrangeAppled

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I see you guys want all the nice parts of independence and not, say, the asexuality and the closed-mindedness.

I know the isolation of independence all too well. :mellow:

I don't see how independent = close-minded, unless you're suggesting that considering information outside of yourself & from other people is being dependent....I don't see it that way. I also don't see independence as totally positive - it has a lot of negatives, and being somewhat dependent on people seems pretty natural & healthy to me (you know "no man is an island" and all that jazz).
 

Aleksei

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Collection comes from perception. Perception is relative to each person. Si is not simply A is A, it is a large amount of past stored information that dictates "what is" for the person. Just like how everyone can have different Ni's, everyone can have different Si's. Everyone can have different backgrounds, different beliefs, and/or tradition and/or view of the world.
Si can collect distinct stores of data. No two people's Si functions are different, merely for the same reason that no two computers' hard disks are: because they have received different data. There's no internal modification there, thus no individuality, no independence.
 

Thalassa

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Si can collect distinct stores of data. No two people's Si functions are different, merely for the same reason that no two computers' hard disks are: because they have received different data. There's no internal modification there, thus no individuality, no independence.

Whoa whoa whoa...you misunderstand Si. People's Si is different because people's experiences are different. The experience is individual, and the present data is compared to previous individual experience. That's why Si is actually not quite as sharply sensual Se: Se is like the here, the now. Si is like...what happened before in that person's life. Put that person in a very different situation from which they came, and trust me, they could come across as quite the stubborn individual. "Well that's not the way I've always done it..." or "I wasn't raised that way."
 

highlander

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Theoretically, Te is an adaptive and/or systematical "conformity function" that stresses organization and collection instead of isolation.

All extraverted functions would appear to lean towards conformity with external forces. There is no difference.
 

InsatiableCuriosity

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INTJ and INTP are both pretty independent but I think independence is more of a driving force behind the INTJ - a singularly defining characteristic. The INTPs that I've known have been more accepting of the reality of how things are. I don't know how to put this delicately but they are far more likely to suck up to others in positions of power in order to get ahead. An INTJ would be much less likely to do this. For good or for bad, the goal of the INTJ is independence. I'm not sure INTP is quite the same.

I would question this perspective. :shock: My creed is the alcoholics' prayer (tho I rarely drink):

G*d grant me the ability to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference!

In an organisation of 2000 employees I am probably the least likely to be accepting of how things are if the status quo is ineffective or toxic. I am known for questioning authority on the hard questions and was the academic staff member selected to serve on a committee to establish anti-bullying policy and procedure.

My poor MD had his perspective and existing policy questioned and challenged by me on more than one occasion. We did end up with educational and informative policy and procedures and a completely new selection criteria for management selection which was far more people centric than had ever been before.

I am known in our org. for identifying issues but instead of just bitching about them, getting in and finding and scoping solutions to those problems - a forte of INTPs. :devil:
 

Kalach

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I know the isolation of independence all too well. :mellow:

I don't see how independent = close-minded, unless you're suggesting that considering information outside of yourself & from other people is being dependent....I don't see it that way. I also don't see independence as totally positive - it has a lot of negatives, and being somewhat dependent on people seems pretty natural & healthy to me (you know "no man is an island" and all that jazz).

INTJ closed-mindedness is when they don't countenance whatever it is that other people toss up as queries or debate points, most ideally because those things are irrelevant and other people don't know it yet. Which is to say, the INTJ has independently chosen already.

Theoretically, Te is an adaptive and/or systematical "conformity function" that stresses organization and collection instead of isolation.

Not under introverted intuition, it's not. When intuition is taking the lead, thinking serves. Thus the usual INTJ idea that reality is what *I* construct it to be.


Not entirely sure why there's a debate about who's the most independent except that independence is a value to some people, even perhaps some types. I'll be betting the different types are leaning on different ideas of independence. INTJ because they'll be wanting to say they can make any connection there is, even the unthinkables; INTP because they'll be saying they can reach the truth of any concept... or something, I dunno why INTPs claim independence except that dominant subjectivity always makes one think one is one, and separated from the other.
 

Craft

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Si can collect distinct stores of data. No two people's Si functions are different, merely for the same reason that no two computers' hard disks are: because they have received different data. There's no internal modification there, thus no individuality, no independence.

Your saying that one person can view something the exact same way another person can?

Regardless, the cause of "received different data" is enough to distinguish that one Si can't be the same as another Si. Because that would mean a person can have entirely the same exact life as another person.

Si is not just about the process of storing information but also "what data is stored". The reflection and looking "back" is Si but also "what has been stored" and/or what is being reflected on.
 

Aleksei

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Your saying that one person can view something the exact same way another person can?
Well, no, but no one uses one function to the exclusion of any others. Si-dominants raised in similar environments can be pretty damn similar to each other though.
 

Craft

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All extraverted functions would appear to lean towards conformity with external forces. There is no difference.

No, at least not Ne and Se.

Not under introverted intuition, it's not. When intuition is taking the lead, thinking serves. Thus the usual INTJ idea that reality is what *I* construct it to be.
But how will you promote that reality? With Te I presume? Thinking does serve but because there is Ni, there is Te. If you cannot Te(conform), you cannot fulfill the "desires" of Ni. Unless your Ni is so unconformable.


INTJ because they'll be wanting to say they can make any connection there is, even the unthinkables; INTP because they'll be saying they can reach the truth of any concept... or something, I dunno why INTPs claim independence except that dominant subjectivity always makes one think one is one.
That is a different type of independence methinks. Ability?
 

Thalassa

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Well, no, but no one uses one function to the exclusion of any others. Si-dominants raised in similar environments can be pretty damn similar to each other though.

No they aren't. At least not any more similar than other people of any given type. There are obviously certain traits that make type more or less identifiable, whether thats Si-dom or Ne-dom.

I'd like for you to compare an Si-dom who grew up in a liberal home in Las Vegas where there was violence and alcholism, but lots of affection, to say an Si-dom who grew up in a conservative Christian home in Alabama where there was repression and complete rejection of all alcohol, cigarettes, etc. but there was very little affection and you would have TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT PEOPLE WITH TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT VALUE SYSTEMS.

I dare say that with your prejudice you wouldn't even recognize the first theoretical person as an Si-dom.

Edit: you also need to take into consideration the fact that even twins who grow up in the same family have different experiences once they start school, make their own friends, etc. A random event or person can deeply impact an individuals life experience, making them quite different from someone who lives in the same town, or even belongs to the same family.
 

highlander

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I would question this perspective. :shock: My creed is the alcoholics' prayer (tho I rarely drink):

G*d grant me the ability to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference!

In an organisation of 2000 employees I am probably the least likely to be accepting of how things are if the status quo is ineffective or toxic. I am known for questioning authority on the hard questions and was the academic staff member selected to serve on a committee to establish anti-bullying policy and procedure.

My poor MD had his perspective and existing policy questioned and challenged by me on more than one occasion. We did end up with educational and informative policy and procedures and a completely new selection criteria for management selection which was far more people centric than had ever been before.

I am known in our org. for identifying issues but instead of just bitching about them, getting in and finding and scoping solutions to those problems - a forte of INTPs. :devil:

I'm sure these things are all true. INTPs in particular are great at asking these types of questions.

That being said, you can define independence as, "freedom from control or influence of another". This is a defining characteristic of INTJ. As Kalach has indicated, it's not all good.
 

Craft

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Well, no, but no one uses one function to the exclusion of any others.

That is why people have a number of functions, because functions will share a relationship amongst each other---resulting into different types.


Si-dominants raised in similar environments can be pretty damn similar to each other though.

As a result of Si-Je methinks. An Si-Dom, however, can be very rebellious. Think Rorschach from Watchmen.
 

highlander

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No, at least not Ne and Se.


But how will you promote that reality? With Te I presume? Thinking does serve but because there is Ni, there is Te. If you cannot Te(conform), you cannot fulfill the "desires" of Ni. Unless your Ni is so unconformable.



That is a different type of independence methinks. Ability?

Outside of this thread, I have never heard anyone suggest that INTP is more independent than INTJ. In fact, i can point to numerous authors who would point to the opposite. Knowing myself and knowing others who are INTP, no attempt at a logical argument would convince me that those authors are wrong.
 

Aleksei

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I'd like for you to compare an Si-dom who grew up in a liberal home in Las Vegas where there was violence and alcholism, but lots of affection, to say an Si-dom who grew up in a conservative Christian home in Alabama where there was repression and complete rejection of all alcohol, cigarettes, etc. but there was very little affection and you would have TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT PEOPLE WITH TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT VALUE SYSTEMS.
Who grew up in two totally different backgrounds and became two totally different people as a result, thus not contradicting my point in any way whatsoever.

In any case we're getting sidetracked from my original point, which is that the expression of Si is a sum of its experiences, unmodified and unfiltered. Thus it can't really be said to act independently at all, despite being an introverted function.
 

Aleksei

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As a result of Si-Je methinks. An Si-Dom, however, can be very rebellious. Think Rorschach from Watchmen.
Rorscharch is a Ti-dom (ISTP).
 

Thalassa

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Who grew up in two totally different backgrounds and became two totally different people as a result, thus not contradicting my point in any way whatsoever.

Read the edit. No two people have the exact same life experience. It's virtually impossible unless you lock them in a small room and put them on some sort of prison-like regiment.
 

Craft

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Outside of this thread, I have never heard anyone suggest that INTP is more independent than INTJ. In fact, i can point to numerous authors who would point to the opposite. Knowing myself and knowing others who are INTP, no attempt at a logical argument would convince me that those authors are wrong.

Perhaps you are working on a different definition of "independence"?

Theoretically, Ni-dom's, by their nature, are the most independent-minded types. This is why some people would call them "crazy". Because their Ni is filled with ideas that are hard to relate to the present reality. (as a result of inferior Se.)
 
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