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The P/J Dilemma

Urchin

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Sep 12, 2007
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139
MBTI Type
INTP
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5w6
Sometimes I can't tell whether I'm truly an INTP or I'm a disorganized INTJ. My P bias is weak. You've seen me posting around, what do you think?

I'm extremely theoretical. I'm very withdrawn into my internal world most of the time. Which is more theoretical and introspective, Ni or Ti?

Socially I'm more like an INTP. I avoid confrontations and arguments because they don't interest me.

Thoughts?
 

quietgirl

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Sep 29, 2007
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401
MBTI Type
INFJ
I find interaction style helps a lot in deciphering code.

Interaction Styles

Also, do you have a need for closure? Do you need to set a goal and follow a plan? If you are confined to a plan, do you feel stifled or is it comfortable to you?

Do you favor Fi over Fe? I know Fe is INTP's inferior, but Fi is INTJ's tertiary. I find people with even an inferior Fe tend to use feeling in more of a "being considerate" sort of way.
 

Athenian200

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4w5
INTP's are known to abandon an argument when they're losing, or sue for peace to end it rather than letting it reach it's conclusion if it's going towards something unfavorable to their position. INTJ's would rather finish what they start even if it means they look bad as a result. Which do you do?

Being extremely theoretical and indrawn is an INxx thing, and doesn't really tell you much.

Saying that you're more like an INTP socially is a bit of an oxymoron. INTP's are not very social, you know?

But anyway, is your motivation for avoiding arguments partially because you think that most of the people who disagree with you wouldn't understand or agree with your ideas even if you explained them? Just that even if they could understand, the people are not worth the effort required to explain your ideas to them?

Also, which is harder for you to deal with? Sensing or Feeling? Even if it's feeling, how do you experience Feeling usually? By experiencing an inner intensity focused inward on itself, or is it evoked by and focused towards an outside stimulus?
 

Maverick

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Apr 29, 2007
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880
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ENTJ
Sometimes I can't tell whether I'm truly an INTP or I'm a disorganized INTJ. My P bias is weak. You've seen me posting around, what do you think?

P's tend to hesitate about being P or J, J's know.
 

Urchin

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139
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5w6
My interaction style is Designer Theorizer, which points towards INTP.

Also, do you have a need for closure? Do you need to set a goal and follow a plan? If you are confined to a plan, do you feel stifled or is it comfortable to you?

I love making plans and starting them, but I have trouble following through on them a lot of the time.

Do you favor Fi over Fe?

My F is very diminished. I feel uncomfortable when faced with emotions I can't control. I get very irritated when others operate in illogical, emotion-based manners. I don't know whether this makes me more Fi or Fe.

INTP's are known to abandon an argument when they're losing, or sue for peace to end it rather than letting it reach it's conclusion if it's going towards something unfavorable to their position. INTJ's would rather finish what they start even if it means they look bad as a result. Which do you do?

I abandon arguments easily. If the argument is not accomplishing anything further, I end it. I never argue for the sake of arguing.

Saying that you're more like an INTP socially is a bit of an oxymoron. INTP's are not very social, you know?

My point exactly.

But anyway, is your motivation for avoiding arguments partially because you think that most of the people who disagree with you wouldn't understand or agree with your ideas even if you explained them? Just that even if they could understand, the people are not worth the effort required to explain your ideas to them?

Most of the time, I don't care whether people understand my ideas or not. If there is a reason I need them to understand, I will explain to them and am actually a good teacher.

Also, which is harder for you to deal with? Sensing or Feeling? Even if it's feeling, how do you experience Feeling usually? By experiencing an inner intensity focused inward on itself, or is it evoked by and focused towards an outside stimulus?

I have a lot of trouble with Feeling, and normally I experience it as an overwhelming inward emotion with which I don't know what to do. I still don't understand what Sensing actually is. Does it mean concrete and reality-based? I'm not that at all. I hate reality and all its error. I hate it when there are unknown factors affecting my data.

Where does that leave me?
 

Athenian200

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I have a lot of trouble with Feeling, and normally I experience it as an overwhelming inward emotion with which I don't know what to do. I still don't understand what Sensing actually is. Does it mean concrete and reality-based? I'm not that at all. I hate reality and all its error. I hate it when there are unknown factors affecting my data.

Where does that leave me?

Ugh... I agree with that. Sensing pretty much is concrete and reality based... so annoying, it never does what you expect it to, never fits my expectations, messes up my plans with things that I didn't understand/compensate for.

Now... which is worse? The concrete, unknown factors, or the inward feeling you don't know what to do with? If you were forced to endure one or the other for a given period?
 

Urchin

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Now... which is worse? The concrete, unknown factors, or the inward feeling you don't know what to do with? If you were forced to endure one or the other for a given period?

I guess I've learned to deal with the Fi, and I can use logic to keep it from controlling my actions. Sensing, on the other hand, will always make me irate.
 

Athenian200

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I guess I've learned to deal with the Fi, and I can use logic to keep it from controlling my actions. Sensing, on the other hand, will always make me irate.

I think you might be an INTJ, then. Now that I think about it, I did see a couple of J-ish tendencies in the way you structured your Introduction post. And you actually do have some traits that could be Ni now that I think about it...
 

Urchin

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I read a bunch of profiles of INTJs and INTPs to shed light on my problem.

"However, their primary interest is not understanding a concept, but rather applying that concept in a useful way. Unlike the INTP, they do not follow an idea as far as they possibly can, seeking only to understand it fully. INTJs are driven to come to conclusions about ideas."

I'm on the INTP side of this.

"The INTP has no understanding or value for decisions made on the basis of personal subjectivity or feelings. They strive constantly to achieve logical conclusions to problems, and don't understand the importance or relevance of applying subjective emotional considerations to decisions. For this reason, INTPs are usually not in-tune with how people are feeling, and are not naturally well-equiped to meet the emotional needs of others."

This has ended many a friendship for me.

"If the INTP has not developed their Sensing side sufficiently, they may become unaware of their environment, and exhibit weakness in performing maintenance-type tasks, such as bill-paying and dressing appropriately."

I'm a slob. This is truth. I often forget to put on proper clothing and go to school wearing a grubby night shirt, jeans, and slippers, totally forgetting to comb my hair, etc. I'm viewed by others as a bizarre sort of nerd-savant with a total ineptness regarding reality.

"INTJs need to remember to express themselves sufficiently, so as to avoid difficulties with people misunderstandings. In the absence of properly developing their communication abilities, they may become abrupt and short with people, and isolationists."

This fits.

"When under a great deal of stress, the INTJ may become obsessed with mindless repetitive, Sensate activities, such as over-drinking. They may also tend to become absorbed with minutia and details that they would not normally consider important to their overall goal. "

I am the opposite of this. When I am under pressure, I lose track of all detail and become extremely abstract and broad-brush about things.

This is making me think INTP. I'm not applied or goal-oriented enough to be an INTJ. I compare myself to my boyfriend (a textbook INTJ) and find that I am more artistic than he, and less particular about things. We both get total tunnel vision when something interesting appears, though. I'm a fan of INTxs.
 

wildcat

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Jun 8, 2007
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3,622
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Sometimes I can't tell whether I'm truly an INTP or I'm a disorganized INTJ. My P bias is weak. You've seen me posting around, what do you think?

I'm extremely theoretical. I'm very withdrawn into my internal world most of the time. Which is more theoretical and introspective, Ni or Ti?

Socially I'm more like an INTP. I avoid confrontations and arguments because they don't interest me.

Thoughts?
Ti Se is not theoretic nor introspective. Ti Ne is theoretic not introspective. Ni Te is pragmatic, theoretic and introspective.

I read in another thread that Ni is a left brain capacity because it represents a J.

Wrong.

1. Ni does not represent a J. It is a J.
2. Ni is not a P. It represents a P.

To represent is to stand in the place of another.

Hence the P/J dichotomy is ill conceived.
 

Athenian200

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Ti Se is not theoretic nor introspective. Ti Ne is theoretic not introspective. Ni Te is pragmatic, theoretic and introspective.

I read in another thread that Ni is a left brain capacity because it represents a J.

Wrong.

1. Ni does not represent a J. It is a J.
2. Ni is not a P. It represents a P.

To represent is to stand in the place of another.

Hence the P/J dichotomy is ill conceived.

Do you think that Jungian Rationality/Irrationality would have been a better standard for what people often express (or attempt to express) in terms of J/P, or at least had a significant effect on it that is currently neglected? Socionics uses that instead of the standard J/P, in case you're curious.
 

cascadeco

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I find interaction style helps a lot in deciphering code.

Interaction Styles

Just out of curiousity -- what types of interactions should one be 'analyzing' to determine interaction style? My interaction style is rather situational.

[I don't want to take over this thread though - maybe I should start my own!]
 

Totenkindly

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Just out of curiosity -- what types of interactions should one be 'analyzing' to determine interaction style? My interaction style is rather situational.

It might change a little depending on the situation, but was there one out of the four that, when you read it, seemed to be more typical of you if you are not changing to fit a situation? If you could play ANY of the four roles, which would be the most comfortable for you?

("Behind the Scenes" was definitely correct for me.)
 

quietgirl

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Just out of curiousity -- what types of interactions should one be 'analyzing' to determine interaction style? My interaction style is rather situational.

[I don't want to take over this thread though - maybe I should start my own!]

Think of what you naturally do. My natural style as an INFJ is "Chart the Course", but when the situation calls for it, I CAN try to adapt to a more "Behind the Scenes" (or whatever else) approach. However, let it be know how NOT gracefully I do it and I usually revert back to my natural tendency to set a goal, follow a plan, and speak directly as soon as I can.

I should add that "Chart the Course" people tend to speak more directly & "Behind the Scenes" people tend to speak more passively. I haven't had many problems with people listening to me and it's one of my INFP brother's biggest complaints.
 

cascadeco

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It might change a little depending on the situation, but was there one out of the four that, when you read it, seemed to be more typical of you if you are not changing to fit a situation? If you could play ANY of the four roles, which would be the most comfortable for you?

("Behind the Scenes" was definitely correct for me.)

Actually the more I read about interaction styles, and after having read the Fe/Fi thread, I'm seriously questioning my own type. :)

[I don't think it helps that I've always been one for self-growth, and not staying 'stagnant', so it's probable I've explored all 8 functions somewhat decently, which is why I'm having issues with my 'real' type.]

Honestly?? Behind-the-scenes struck a chord w/ me, and I actually do think this is more how I am in my personal, private life. I'd much rather not play an active role, and I'm much more go-with-the-flow in terms of conversation (and my life in general). I don't try to steer conversations in one direction or another. I see where the conversations go. BUT if I'm anxious about a social interaction, and this is more of the introvert thing, I'll definitely 'plan' out what I want to talk about, or general conversation/interaction topics.

In general, I can actually be rather apathetic about how the interactions play out, when it boils down to it. :) I want to see what happens naturally. I don't have any 'purpose/goal/course' in mind when I'm interacting with people and getting to know them.

But if there is a decision that needs to be reached, or in a work setting where a 'deliverable' needs to occur, then that's where I'll become much more Chart-the-Course. When I find myself in a work setting, I really can't stand meetings where people aren't capturing the main points and are going off on tangents, so I'll come to the forefront and be more directing in meetings, because I'm all about *clarity* and making sure people don't get offtrack. So I find myself in certain situations where people need more of a leader, that I become the leader and I become the person people 'look at' for an answer. So it's quite...confusing. I don't really choose this role, it just falls on me because I get annoyed with people missing important points, big picture, etc, and I somehow become the person people turn to for clarity and for a decisive answer. So at work, I'm *definitely* Chart-the-Course, because I definitely kick things up a notch at work and can't NOT get things moving. Edit: I'm not THE leader who sets the course of the meeting and decides the agenda, and I would never want to be that person - BUT I think I'm more of a ?driver? to keep things on track and focused. I'll often be quiet for 10 minutes or so, and then hop in with something, and then I find people tend to look at me during discussion topics, as if they WANT me to provide my input... (but I suppose this is getting off-topic for interaction styles)

Outside of Interaction Styles, and regarding J/P (?): And I guess I don't find myself terribly goal-oriented as far as my life goes....one person commented to me once that I just kinda float along and 'wait' for things to happen...although if I realize I'm wafting around too much I'll eventually take charge and kick myself in the ass to DO something. :) So I go in phases of doing nothing for a while (i.e. no tangible goals), realizing I'm doing nothing, getting ancy to enact some change and not become 'stagnant', and then making a goal so I actually do something and grow. :)


Fi/Fe....honestly I think my Fi is off the charts, and if I'm honest with myself, I wonder whether I've 'trained' myself to be more Fe. It's a tough call, but I DO know that I relate to nearly everything under Fi when I read about it. When I read how others experience Fe...I'm just not sure if that's how I am. I know that that's how I choose to interact with everyone around me, and I'm very attune to other peoples' needs and am sensitive to their emotional states....but I'm just not sure, I almost think my Fi trumps my Fe....
 

wildcat

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Do you think that Jungian Rationality/Irrationality would have been a better standard for what people often express (or attempt to express) in terms of J/P, or at least had a significant effect on it that is currently neglected? Socionics uses that instead of the standard J/P, in case you're curious.
How?
 

Maha Raj

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ENTP
I think P or J doesn't matter ... because, u can always switch to other by changing your behaviors...

P - Childish behaviors
J - Matured behaviors

But who would want to behave childish once they are matured... therefore, Js wouldn't even think about becoming a P.

I am an ENTP, but you know that I would feel better if I am an ENTJ... cuz ENTJs are the GOLDen Boys...
 

Maha Raj

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To support my previous post, i think i should explain what i think about this MBTI thing...

E - Extroverts explore the world around them using Intuitiveness (or sensation) and then think about it using their Thinking (or feelings) part.

I - Introverts uses Thinking (or Feelings) to analyze what's in their mind and then try to explore the world using Intuition (or Sensations).

P or J doesn't matter because it simply the way (behaviors) how these two types interact with the world.
 

wildcat

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To support my previous post, i think i should explain what i think about this MBTI thing...

E - Extroverts explore the world around them using Intuitiveness (or sensation) and then think about it using their Thinking (or feelings) part.

I - Introverts uses Thinking (or Feelings) to analyze what's in their mind and then try to explore the world using Intuition (or Sensations).

P or J doesn't matter because it simply the way (behaviors) how these two types interact with the world.
Yes.
Because of the hapless mismatch of N/S contra I/E.
 
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