[ENTP] The Official ENTP Haters' Thread

[EcK]

Sooo, do we have to make up things against ourselves or what?

"Them ENTPs won't lie to a friend to make them feel better about themselves but would rather say the truth to help them grow. I REFUSE TO GROW INTO A BETTER PERSON FOR MY OWN SAKE "
"they only befriend geniunely interesting people, I HATE THEM"

 

[ergophobe]

It's because I consider most problems to be my fault, since I should have known better.

I do too, often to a fault. I've actually repeated this to myself several times in the past few weeks, "i should have known better".

I also know that I am responsible for my own growth, so when there is a conflict, I try to think of where I went wrong and what I could have done differently. The other adult should do the same - I'm not their mother.

This where you and I disagree. Actually, the making things okay without letting you recognize your part and helping you see your part strikes me as more motherly than otherwise. I don't think anyone is that self aware to take away a complete understanding of the situation that broke down without input from the other person. I find that hard to believe at either end. Even with my own acknowledgment of the role, I would have missed stuff and the other person's perspective, as I often learn on this site can really help me see things better, more clearly. It's not about mothering, it is very much about having an open adult conversation.

EDIT: Like Ent said above, it's nice when the other party learns the value of personal responsibility and contributes to the dialogue.

Absolutely. Both parties have to be amenable to the dialogue. This implies being okay with saying, I messed up but I think this is what you did that led me there.

 

[ergophobe]

Most people simply assume, to protect their own ego that the other party is at fault to an extent, wether or not its the case. Take the classic example of the ex who suddently has a billion cons, and every friend who knew him or her suddently get all 'yes she/he didn't deserve you balbalbal'. That's just, childish.

The fact is, that you cannot change other people, but you can change yourself, so its the best solution for personal growth and not an attempt to beat ourselves up. Now if the other party is also at fault and just takes my saying that i'm at fault as a get out of jail free card its their own problem. Ofc, if i find them to be dishonest in those matters, they might fall down on my respectometer, but i'm not going to try to change them, they're adults and should be able to decide what they want to become.

This is exactly what I am talking about NOT doing -- I don't want to assume it's always the other person's fault. That is never the case. Breakdowns always involve two people. It is childish. The opposite seems strange too, it was all my fault when it is clear to both people that it wasn't.

I agree - you can't change the other person but relationships of any kind are made stronger by dialogue. When you deny the other person the insights you have into what happened, you deny them that piece of growth you could have helped them with. They make the changes but it's okay to have people who care for us highlight some things we may be blind to at the time. Acting on it or not is the person's prerogative.

 

[onemoretime]

Hateable: ENTPs ALWAYS LOSE THEIR PANTS! (oh, wait...)

Okay... their clothing spontaneously changes color based on their mood, and they won't tell me how.


Te/Ni is not a lock, it is the way of the world. (It is also making me want to point out that I know that's not true. Damn.)

ENTP (actually most Ne): telling you something you already know, and being surprised that you've considered it before the official "hand of truth" has revealed it. Honestly, most of the time these tidbits are just not worth considering unless the crazy guy brings it up.

Is it really that we're surprised that you knew it before we revealed it, or is it that we're surprised that you didn't factor that bit of information into your logic? Everything's interconnected, you know.

 

[onemoretime]

Sooo, do we have to make up things against ourselves or what?

"Them ENTPs won't lie to a friend to make them feel better about themselves but would rather say the truth to help them grow. I REFUSE TO GROW INTO A BETTER PERSON FOR MY OWN SAKE "
"they only befriend geniunely interesting people, I HATE THEM"

I guess that's why Ti has to be developed for personal growth - we aren't going to change until we have a conversation with ourselves explaining why we have to change.

This is also why I think ENTPs (maybe NTs in general) tend to be non-religious; we understand that the voice in our head isn't some deity, but rather our own internal cognitive processes. Combined with the extraverted nature of the way we see the world, we've been having conversations with ourselves in a non-crazy (arguably) way our entire life, and the need for religion is less apparent.

 

[jenocyde]

This where you and I disagree. Actually, the making things okay without letting you recognize your part and helping you see your part strikes me as more motherly than otherwise. I don't think anyone is that self aware to take away a complete understanding of the situation that broke down without input from the other person. I find that hard to believe at either end. Even with my own acknowledgment of the role, I would have missed stuff and the other person's perspective, as I often learn on this site can really help me see things better, more clearly. It's not about mothering, it is very much about having an open adult conversation.

To be fair, if someone asks me what I think they could have done differently, I will tell them. But not everyone wants to hear the truth, especially if emotions are running high after a fight already. And I disagree that even with both parties communicating, that the full answer will be known. It's impossible.

But what I mean by "it's my own fault" - I don't mean that the argument was my fault, but that I took the bait and argued with someone who is clearly so emotional. I should have known better. Do you understand what I mean?

And a lot of times, for my friends, it's more about just giving them a pass. Recognizing someone had a bad day and is acting out of turn... whatever. You can take it out on me if you want. But if that behavioral pattern continues, you better believe there will be a conversation about it.

 

[EcK]

Yeah, there's this whole communication issue, especially with you Fi people. You guys have difficulties grasping inpersonnal analysis of interpersonal relationships as a working model used on everyday basis in entps. We just want to resolve a conflict, not argue about who has the moral upper hand. We're moral relativists damn it, doesnt apply !

 

[jenocyde]

We just want to resolve a conflict, not argue about who has the moral upper hand.

+100000

 

[ergophobe]

To be fair, if someone asks me what I think they could have done differently, I will tell them. But not everyone wants to hear the truth, especially if emotions are running high after a fight already. And I disagree that even with both parties communicating, that the full answer will be known. It's impossible.

I think that's fair, both people have to be in a good place for the conversation. Sure, but I am interested in getting as close to the answer as possible and I'll hold that getting both perspectives will get me closer than just doing my own analysis.

But what I mean by "it's my own fault" - I don't mean that the argument was my fault, but that I took the bait and argued with someone who is clearly so emotional. I should have known better. Do you understand what I mean?

Yes, absolutely and I practice this myself - choosing who and more importantly, when someone can handle the honesty. I don't see argument as necessarily leading to emotional fighting, conflicts appear in every interaction and they don't always lead to arguments. The dissatisfaction at my end is almost an intellectual one, I didn't learn enough.

And a lot of times, for my friends, it's more about just giving them a pass. Recognizing someone had a bad day and is acting out of turn... whatever. You can take it out on me if you want. But if that behavioral pattern continues, you better believe there will be a conversation about it.

Glad to hear it. This is the kind of friend I would want who wouldn't just let me continue with behavior that was hurtful (even unintentionally) or otherwise harmful.

Yeah, there's this whole communication issue, especially with you Fi people. You guys have difficulties grasping inpersonnal analysis of interpersonal relationships as a working model used on everyday basis in entps. We just want to resolve a conflict, not argue about who has the moral upper hand. We're moral relativists damn it, doesnt apply !

Did you mean impersonal? Actually, I don't think that's true at all. For Fi users too, it's not establishing a moral hierarchy (not sure how you got there) but about getting complete information and working on bettering self. We are very capable and probably do more impersonal analysis of interpersonal relationships than necessary (it's our specialty). It doesn't always involve emotions, at least our own. There is much intellectual interest there as well. Perhaps the difference is that you see resolving the conflict as the only goal and we see the future implications as important too - how can I avoid this event from repeating?

Edit: Our starting point is one of the absolute importance of moral equality in our relationships and respecting individual approaches to them so the idea of moral upper hand seems out of place. It's not a question of right or wrong, it's a question of how to achieve a better outcome but allowing both parties access to the information gleaned. I recognize we both have good skills in the area - I just want to share my info for yours, you know?

 

[entropie]

Has anyone said yet, I love my car, it doesnt ask me difficult questions ?

 

[ergophobe]

Has anyone said yet, I love my car, it doesnt ask me difficult questions ?

My car does ask me difficult questions. It also expects me to just know what it's thinking when it starts flashing strange lights. Weird.

 

[onemoretime]

+100000

The worst part about moderating is that you sometimes have to get the parties mad at you, and work your way out of it, hoping they forget about their argument, and bonding over how much of a prick you are. The nice part is they usually realize what you were doing the next day.

 

[EcK]

I mean, that the enfps I know, are of course just as able to be rational as anybody else, but that the mental categories they use, relatively speaking, are way more 'flavored' than the more neutral categories I for example use. Which in my opinion, give them way more blindspots as far as 'stepping away from the situation' goes. There are always underlying values, positive and negative experience and so on lying just behind the surface.

Now that doesn't have to apply to you, I don't know you, I'm talking from my experience with enfps and especially infps.
You cannot hurt someone's feelings if s-he doesn't have a preference emotionally speaking between solution A and B. In the case of infps for example, this is not only untrue, but quite the exact opposite situation.
And while the entp, going for the large and complete picture is trying to encompass a few aspects, he or she is just BOUND to touch some sensible fiber and spend more energy trying not to have people get all emotional while still driving the actual point home.

 

[jenocyde]

Perhaps the difference is that you see resolving the conflict as the only goal and we see the future implications as important too - how can I avoid this event from repeating?

But you also have to take into consideration, if we've had a huge emotional show down, the last thing we want is a huge emotional talk about it... and it will always be a huge emotional talk because it's almost impossible for some people to take criticism and continue to dialogue without getting defensive. The whole thought of a talk like that is just draining. Especially when these talks lead to nowhere because people always repeat their patterns...

But again, my first instinct is that everyone is responsible for themselves. This other stuff is secondary.

 

[ergophobe]

But you also have to take into consideration, if we've had a huge emotional show down, the last thing we want is a huge emotional talk about it... and it will always be a huge emotional talk because it's almost impossible for some people to take criticism and continue to dialogue without getting defensive. The whole thought of a talk like that is just draining. Especially when these talks lead to nowhere because people always repeat their patterns...

But again, my first instinct is that everyone is responsible for themselves. This other stuff is secondary.

Thank you - that was a completely honest response and useful. I really appreciate it. I don't agree with people always repeating their patterns (I'm just naturally more optimistic in this realm, being an Nf and all). Also, personally, I'm working on learning how not to repeat my own patterns so I've got to believe it's possible. I completely understand the preference for taking the emotionally less draining route though - fair and honest.

 

[jenocyde]

Thank you - that was a completely honest response and useful. I really appreciate it. I don't agree with people always repeating their patterns (I'm just naturally more optimistic in this realm, being an Nf and all). Also, personally, I'm working on learning how not to repeat my own patterns so I've got to believe it's possible. I completely understand the preference for taking the emotionally less draining route though - fair and honest.

I think when people come to conclusions on their own, they are much less likely to repeat a pattern. If you nag, harp, cajole or whine, they haven't learned it for themselves and hence, won't take it as seriously.

 

[yenom]

I think this thread is pointless, because you ask people to throw insults at you, and then you give 15+ posts to defend yourself. where is the fun in that.

People that hate entps deserve a nice hug and a pie in the face.

 

[Wiley45]

I can't hate ENTP's yet, because I don't think I know any IRL!

 

[JocktheMotie]

I think this thread is pointless, because you ask people to throw insults at you, and then you give 15+ posts to defend yourself. where is the fun in that.

People that hate entps deserve a nice hug and a pie in the face.

For xNTPs, arguing and trading insults is like sex.

 

[entropie]

My car does ask me difficult questions. It also expects me to just know what it's thinking when it starts flashing strange lights. Weird.

Gimme a call if you need help with that. Thats prolly my only field of expertise