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Stop criminalizing upward mobility

ygolo

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This is why it's a dead end to think the government can solve the housing crisis. The government can perhaps relax regulations/red-tape (even that they struggle to do effectively) but market forces must solve the supply/demand issue.
Or if government does build housing, they'll need to do it for less than a million dollars a unit--a lot less. It's about outcomes, not ideologies and isms.

Some people who live near the problem are starting to see it as one:

While others still don't see it as a problem:

It's funny to see $48k a year on housing alone is considered "affordable." If cities are to be the engines of upward mobility, they need to be able to live there.

As the authors of Abundance put it, "If you want people to believe that you are they party of the working class, they need to afford to live in places you govern." (I may not have gotten the quote exactly right, but that was the gist.)
 

ygolo

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Decades ago, people were making parallel arguments about all the overhead for programs to help the poor, and how the overhead led to ineffectiveness of programs.

That movement was captured in a book called "Just Give Money to the Poor. "


When essentially the same arguments are applied to programs in general, these arguments are being characterized as all sorts of things they are not. This phenomenon leads me to be suspicious of the motives of the detractors.

As was the case when dealing with bloat in aid programs (as was uncovered about the once venerable Red Cross), we want programs to be effective. I don't understand why that's controversial.

Yes, selfish people, people in the opposing party, and bad actors generally are some of the reasons bloat gets created, and ineffectiveness sets in.

Yes, corporate power needs to be addressed. But you can't deny that one of the main and often overlooked ways corporations assert that power is the requirement of lobbyists and lawyers to do good things(see Bullshit Jobs - Goons).

You can't deny that places like San Francisco, and California more generally has a housing crisis(arguably the largest in the nation). Also California, and San Francisco in particular, has been a center for Democratic governance for ages.

I can certainly see other things being higher priority, but if abundance in the things we need isn't high on the list also, we risk California turning into a swing state, and the so called Demographic Destiny also moving to the right.

The motivations of those vocally opposing having more of the things we need have to be looked into with suspicion.

What incentive structures make them do that?
 

ygolo

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I am curious, for anti-capitalists in general, do you find upward mobility offensive?

It is my assumption that most people, poor or otherwise want to be better off than they are now.

I believe a lot of the people who have a reflexive dislike for upward mobility has that dislike come from having been born to rich parents (and therefore are able to choose downward mobility or staying the same socioeconomically).
 

ygolo

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More on the false choices for progressives:


In fact, pitting pro-growth supply-side economics and anti-monopolists against each other is a false choice. Pro-competition and pro-building policies should be complements, not jealous competitors. Effective progressive governance requires pursuing both in tandem — not treating them as alternatives or as separate, divorced lanes.

I'm growing increasingly suspicious of those who dislike upward mobility. It's a stance that I can only see two groups take:
1) the socioeconomically privileged(i.e. rich parents-those with proprety to hand down or those who have it handed down to them) and
2) those who've given up completely on moving towards egalitarianism.

The mythical creature that commits "class suicide" that some left professors/intellectuals want is rare and even the act of doing that presupposes socioeconomic privilege.

I've yet to fathom the motives. But, as much as I hate to use the term, "luxury beliefs" seems apt.
 

ceecee

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More on the false choices for progressives:




I'm growing increasingly suspicious of those who dislike upward mobility. It's a stance that I can only see two groups take:
1) the socioeconomically privileged(i.e. rich parents-those with proprety to hand down or those who have it handed down to them) and
2) those who've given up completely on moving towards egalitarianism.

The mythical creature that commits "class suicide" that some left professors/intellectuals want is rare and even the act of doing that presupposes socioeconomic privilege.

I've yet to fathom the motives. But, as much as I hate to use the term, "luxury beliefs" seems apt.
You don't think The Nation has a mission to uphold the neoliberal status quo? Because that's all we are really talking about. I hope you don't think they hold some sort of progressive agenda. The abundance clowns have a vested interest to keep things the same for the identical reasons - they know they'll get all kinds of support from centrist Dems (who also need to uphold neoliberalism to keep their jobs or so they think), likely jobs in any future administration and big time sway over policy. Everything is about job security for them but nothing for the masses. Same reason there is bloat - Dems and Republicans put it there to provide job security to donors and people they know.

I'm not anti-capitalist. I favor social democracy because the US cannot go from capitalism to socialism in one swoop, no matter how gradually it happens. But I can see that continuing to do the same thing - neoliberal government and policies - does not work. 50 years of this not working means there has to be change. And the best place to start is to take guys wanting to dress up the same sorry assed policies that help only the wealthy and corporations - and tell them to get to walking.

As far as wealthy people doing or thinking whatever - I could not care less. They are entirely out of touch to begin with and pondering their motives is pointless. People who have given up but are not MAGA deserve the most attention by the political establishment but won't receive it unless it's Bernie or Zohran or AOC or Rashida Talib (you would be blown away of you visited her office in her district. What she does for her constituents is unmatched as far as actual assistance and service). Ilhan Omar is a close second. But they are a tiny minority in a bucket of shit in DC.

Focus on policy. What does <insert policy> do and who benefits? Zohran Mamdani showed why this works brilliantly. Will all his ideas work? Probably not. But doing something is a whole lot better than just standing there doing the same thing that doesn't work.
 

ygolo

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You don't think The Nation has a mission to uphold the neoliberal status quo? Because that's all we are really talking about. I hope you don't think they hold some sort of progressive agenda. The abundance clowns have a vested interest to keep things the same for the identical reasons - they know they'll get all kinds of support from centrist Dems (who also need to uphold neoliberalism to keep their jobs or so they think), likely jobs in any future administration and big time sway over policy. Everything is about job security for them but nothing for the masses. Same reason there is bloat - Dems and Republicans put it there to provide job security to donors and people they know.

I'm not anti-capitalist. I favor social democracy because the US cannot go from capitalism to socialism in one swoop, no matter how gradually it happens. But I can see that continuing to do the same thing - neoliberal government and policies - does not work. 50 years of this not working means there has to be change. And the best place to start is to take guys wanting to dress up the same sorry assed policies that help only the wealthy and corporations - and tell them to get to walking.

As far as wealthy people doing or thinking whatever - I could not care less. They are entirely out of touch to begin with and pondering their motives is pointless. People who have given up but are not MAGA deserve the most attention by the political establishment but won't receive it unless it's Bernie or Zohran or AOC or Rashida Talib (you would be blown away of you visited her office in her district. What she does for her constituents is unmatched as far as actual assistance and service). Ilhan Omar is a close second. But they are a tiny minority in a bucket of shit in DC.

Focus on policy. What does <insert policy> do and who benefits? Zohran Mamdani showed why this works brilliantly. Will all his ideas work? Probably not. But doing something is a whole lot better than just standing there doing the same thing that doesn't work.
We may in, so called, "violent agreement" on many issues.

I, too, believe people who have given up, but are not MAGA, deserve attention that the political system does not give them. I also think that Sanders, Talib, AOC, and even Mamdani are all on the right track.

But the Abundance folks are pointing out that there are shortages. (Do you disagree that there are shortages?) How this became neo-liberal is beyond me.

If you think I am duped, so be it. I think Klein and Thompson are genuine in their motivation.

I think, however, the people in the Majority Report, for instance, are privileged assholes masquerading as populists. "Luxury beliefs" characterize that whole group.

Note that my criticism doesn't include genuine Democratic Socialists in my mind. Just the fake people who could take unpaid internships to start their careers, relying on the banks of Mommy and Daddy.

There are rapacious capitalists in the media ecosystem as well, and I think a lot of the content creators on the Left are also financially motivated. That too is undeniable. (Do you deny it?)

"Just give money to the people," pointed out the same issues with Charities and NGOs that "Abundance" does in Government services. This should not be controversial among progressives.

Edit: Klein and Thompson wrote a book by the title, but people have been talking about the scarcity problem for a long time. I've posted about them long before the Abundance book came out.
This ad:

Fits right into theme.

When I talked about my dream team or whatever, Mamdani delivered in one candidate. But maybe what we need are more mayors like him in blue cities.
 
Last edited:

ceecee

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We may in, so called, "violent agreement" on many issues.

I, too, believe people who have given up, but are not MAGA, deserve attention that the political system does not give them. I also think that Sanders, Talib, AOC, and even Mamdani are all on the right track.

But the Abundance folks are pointing out that there are shortages. (Do you disagree that there are shortages?) How this became neo-liberal is beyond me.

If you think I am duped, so be it. I think Klein and Thompson are genuine in their motivation.

I think, however, the people in the Majority Report, for instance, are privileged assholes masquerading as populists. "Luxury beliefs" characterize that whole group.

Note that my criticism doesn't include genuine Democratic Socialists in my mind. Just the fake people who could take unpaid internships to start their careers, relying on the banks of Mommy and Daddy.

There are rapacious capitalists in the media ecosystem as well, and I think a lot of the content creators on the Left are also financially motivated. That too is undeniable. (Do you deny it?)

"Just give money to the people," pointed out the same issues with Charities and NGOs that "Abundance" does in Government services. This should not be controversial among progressives.

Edit: Klein and Thompson wrote a book by the title, but people have been talking about the scarcity problem for a long time. I've posted about them long before the Abundance book came out.
This ad:

Fits right into theme.

When I talked about my dream team or whatever, Mamdani delivered in one candidate. But maybe what we need are more mayors like him in blue cities.
I've belonged to the Democratic Socialists of America for 10 years and I've never encountered a single fake person as you describe. My criticism of the group is that there are too many white male members and the outreach to women and POC is lacking.

I don't disagree that there are shortages. But those shortages are frequently deliberate and more often than not the result of a broken system taking from the masses and giving to the wealthy and corporations. The scarcity problem is also deliberate. The current federal administration is looking to slow the federal government down to a crawl. So they can then give private industry free rein over services and people that they have no business being anywhere near. Unfortunately, the abundance crowd seem to think there is some sort of private industry benevolence they can tap into in order to reverse the shortages and scarcity. lol

I don't think philanthrocapitalism should exist (which is what charities often are). NGO's function to help internationally, they don't really have a place in the US.
 

ygolo

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I've belonged to the Democratic Socialists of America for 10 years and I've never encountered a single fake person as you describe. My criticism of the group is that there are too many white male members and the outreach to women and POC is lacking.

I don't disagree that there are shortages. But those shortages are frequently deliberate and more often than not the result of a broken system taking from the masses and giving to the wealthy and corporations. The scarcity problem is also deliberate. The current federal administration is looking to slow the federal government down to a crawl. So they can then give private industry free rein over services and people that they have no business being anywhere near. Unfortunately, the abundance crowd seem to think there is some sort of private industry benevolence they can tap into in order to reverse the shortages and scarcity. lol

I don't think philanthrocapitalism should exist (which is what charities often are). NGO's function to help internationally, they don't really have a place in the US.

I think fake people in the DSA are a minority. I suppose there's subjectivity in pecption. I have issues with all parties in general, so that makes me jaded and I don't join.

But I am speaking specifically about content creators and the nepotistic mechanism of having rich(property owning) parents, and not being able to see that others may want go from the situation socio-economic state they are in, and improve that. Going from lower socioeconomics to better is what I mean by "upward mobility."

I definitely think that the Majority Report hosts fit the nepobaby bill. As did the moron who created the nonsensical poll using stilted definitions.

I also agree that the scarcity is artificial and deliberate. It's multi faceted.

I see Mamdani as both an Abundance liberal and DSA. Admittedly, "Abundance" is a lose characterization.

An Abundance liberal, for me, is someone who wants to deal with the shortages. Period. End of story. Klein and Thompson don't own the label.

How they address shortages needs to be outcomes focused (something Mamdani, Klein and Thompson all agree on)

The private sector are people with jobs and businesses owners (big and small). Hating those people seems like a guaranteed losing strategy.
 

ygolo

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I have to say this "schism" (abundance vs DSA) is an incredibly horrible self-inflicted wound.

It's similar to what the party and the media ecosystem(both old and new) managed to do in the emotional issues regarding the genocide in Palestine, and the Islamophobia and antisemitism that followed. The media managed to get the Democratic party machine to ostracize both Israeli Americans and Muslim Americans. Disagreement is expected, but that's the worst outcome. We needed both to feel included not excluded.

When media (like Majority Report) lumps in a person clamoring about housing shortages in cities, including SF and NY, with the Tech Right, this too is disinformation.

When the tech right says all sorts of ridiculous things about Mamdani (also Talib, and now Abughazaleh in Chicago) that's clearly disinformation. But so is the characterization that all abundance advocates believe this.

There are things that Mamdani says in his interviews that may as well be direct quotes from Klein in his.

Mainly lines about the working class being able to live in the city, and lines about being outcome focused.

This topic should not be a schism. It's ridiculous that it could become one.
 

ygolo

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Their proposed solutions may differ, and their styles are different, but this is why I consider both to be part of "Abundance"

Clips about the working class being able to afford to live in liberal cities (I started close to similar statements, but you can see the whole thing in context):

Mamdani:

Klein:

Klein and Thompson's whole book is about being outcome and result-focused rather than creating Byzantine processes that maximize the need for lawyers.

I think this whole interview with Mamdani reflects a results-oriented approach, rather than creating processes that maximize the influence of lawyers and lobbyists.:
 

ygolo

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I feel the need to address my own "nepobaby" comment.

Obviously Teddy Roosevelt was a progressive who came from a very rich background, and he played a key role in bringing about the progressive era (as did many unnamed people who exercised their agency).

Mamdani could also be considered a nepobaby. But I have a rather emotional reaction to a tone issue that plagues a lot of this group. There is a bit of "it's my way or the highway" going on. There are a lot of left media that falls into that group.

My wife, while I was watching the Majority Report, called the hosts "adult spoiled brats" (I am cleaning up the language a bit). But when you listen to that tone, you will hear it in a lot of social democrat media.

I miss the Gravel Institute approach (which I know a lot of people, including Zorhan Mamdani and the Majority Report hosts) participated in. It's not about milquetoast "civility." It is about mutual consideration for people as people. Something that has been lost in many.
 

ceecee

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I think fake people in the DSA are a minority. I suppose there's subjectivity in pecption. I have issues with all parties in general, so that makes me jaded and I don't join.

But I am speaking specifically about content creators and the nepotistic mechanism of having rich(property owning) parents, and not being able to see that others may want go from the situation socio-economic state they are in, and improve that. Going from lower socioeconomics to better is what I mean by "upward mobility."

I definitely think that the Majority Report hosts fit the nepobaby bill. As did the moron who created the nonsensical poll using stilted definitions.

I also agree that the scarcity is artificial and deliberate. It's multi faceted.

I see Mamdani as both an Abundance liberal and DSA. Admittedly, "Abundance" is a lose characterization.

An Abundance liberal, for me, is someone who wants to deal with the shortages. Period. End of story. Klein and Thompson don't own the label.

How they address shortages needs to be outcomes focused (something Mamdani, Klein and Thompson all agree on)

The private sector are people with jobs and businesses owners (big and small). Hating those people seems like a guaranteed losing strategy.
The DSA isn't a political party. Never has been. I don't know why this continues to be something people think. The DSA engages with other groups that align with their values - Democrats, Working Families, Poor People's Campaign and so on and they work to elect candidates. I urge you to look for a local chapter, they have a lot to offer outside of elections and candidates.

Hate watching the Majority Report? Ok but that's dumb. There are better ways to spend time however, there are FAR more problematic nepo babies out there and I think I'll focus on them. How is Sam Seder a nepobaby? Sam is also pretty pragmatic and he isn't a shitlib like David Pakman or something. But I'm pretty sure the content creators or podcasters you are angry with are more like Hasan Piker. That's fine and he isn't my first choice to watch but if you come in good faith, this is a big tent and that includes people like Stavros Halkias, for example.

I have been looking at Zohran's policies. Just because he recognizes shortages doesn't make him an Abundance fan and I listened to the Derek Thompson interview with him. I just want to say that he seems to feel that anyone pushing back is "overreacting". That came directly out of his mouth. If he is this butthurt now, they're going to have real problems down the road.

Klein and Thompson do own the label and are looking to profit off it further. Why do you think a book exists about it? No one is hating on the private sector people with jobs - they're working people and the majority of people work in the private sector. The DSA isn't hating on working people, neither is Zohran or any left sphere person I have heard thus far.
 

JocktheMotie

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I wouldn't necessarily characterize Zohran as an Abundance guy either but he's trying to win, not trying to sell some new brand of policy ideas. Ideally any democratic candidate co-opts what's resonating with the electorate, whether it's Klein + Thompson & co red tape cutting, Stoller + Khan monopoly busting, Bruenig esque social program wonkery, and DSA bluesky warrior class rage. Just steal what works to win and don't really worry too much about which group he truly belongs to. He's already cooled off a lot of his 2020 great awokening posturing so at least he learns quickly.
 

ygolo

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The DSA isn't a political party. Never has been. I don't know why this continues to be something people think. The DSA engages with other groups that align with their values - Democrats, Working Families, Poor People's Campaign and so on and they work to elect candidates. I urge you to look for a local chapter, they have a lot to offer outside of elections and candidates.

Hate watching the Majority Report? Ok but that's dumb. There are better ways to spend time however, there are FAR more problematic nepo babies out there and I think I'll focus on them. How is Sam Seder a nepobaby? Sam is also pretty pragmatic and he isn't a shitlib like David Pakman or something. But I'm pretty sure the content creators or podcasters you are angry with are more like Hasan Piker. That's fine and he isn't my first choice to watch but if you come in good faith, this is a big tent and that includes people like Stavros Halkias, for example.

I have been looking at Zohran's policies. Just because he recognizes shortages doesn't make him an Abundance fan and I listened to the Derek Thompson interview with him. I just want to say that he seems to feel that anyone pushing back is "overreacting". That came directly out of his mouth. If he is this butthurt now, they're going to have real problems down the road.

Klein and Thompson do own the label and are looking to profit off it further. Why do you think a book exists about it? No one is hating on the private sector people with jobs - they're working people and the majority of people work in the private sector. The DSA isn't hating on working people, neither is Zohran or any left sphere person I have heard thus far.
Regarding the DSA

The DSA may not be a "party" but it is often listed under political affiliation of candidates. I have already talked about my issues with Communism. (-ism though it may be). Even there among people who call themselves that label, or socialist or whatever, one assumption they always make is one of technological progress as if there aren't people at the heart of that progress.

Even if you had those proclivities, Marx talks about unleashing the Productive Forces, and gaining control over the means of production (which I believe employee ownership is the most pragmatic form). Among those with MMT/Post-Keynesian proclivities, a lot of them presuppose technological progress as if it were some form of law, rather than something that has people throughout the whole endeavor.

My lived experience is that technology and whatever -ism was in play during that time (which definitely also involved business formation and immigration--including the H1B type) is responsible for pulling my family, friends, friends of family upward in-terms of socioeconomics. The sheer number of slums that disappeared during half my lifetime (hopefully) was breath-taking.

One friend of a family talks about how he came to the US with nothing but a single suitcase on a student visa, and by the time he went home in some number of years, he had a home, an H1-B, and a small family. He eventually became a permanent resident and finally a citizen.

The Statue of Liberty read:
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore"

People have been immigrating to the US believing that no matter your starting point, there is some possibility to make it. I know many who have.

I believe that those parts of the system is worth preserving, whatever your political-economic ideologies. Again, it's about results, not about ideologies.

If there is a place for a person with this lived experience an beliefs in the DSA, maybe I will look into it. But my health issues mean, anytime I go somewhere, I need to convince someone to take me. Public transit is horrible where I live.

Regarding Nepotism

The theme of aspiring upward mobility vs nepotism is a core part of why I started this thread (even more so than "Abundance"). There is a lot more to explore here (legacy college admissions, automobiles ).

I posted about the statistical backdrop of nepotism earlier in this thread, more than once. Even if you aren't a nepobaby, the dominant cultural images steeped in that sub-culture, I find suspect (writing rooms that have the same dominant parental socioeconomics, podcast hosts being dominated by the same parental socioeconomics, etc).

I don't hate watch anything. I like to watch people from a diverse set of perspectives (even things that could potentially make me mad, but that takes a lot). My wife was the one upset I was watching the Majority Report and made the "Adult Spoiled Brat" comment.

Facts about even minor celebrities are searchable.

Sam Seder, in particular, seems to be a son of a prominent lawyer. A lot of people in comedy these days (unlike in the 70s) seem to come from rich parental backgrounds (often lawyer or engineer parental backgrounds).

The co-host, Emma Vigeland, also comes from a rich area, went to an expensive school, and such as it, multiple internet sources say:
Furthermore, Emma’s mom and dad helped to defend Fortune 500 corporations against white-collar frauds for profitable private firms. They were also among 180 former federal prosecutors who requested Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein for a Special Counsel to oversee the Russia Investigation.

As I tried to clarify earlier, I don't hold this directly against them. The likes of Teddy Roosevelt came from much more privileged backgrounds and advanced progressive causes. But when they try to hold others down who are trying the best to get up and back on their feet (especially in the sector of technology--for me), I do hold that set of "luxury beliefs" against them. I realize that the concept is a conservative one, but it the shoe continues to fit so well, then I feel the conclusion is apt.

Abundance and Mamdani

I have no illusions that Mamdani would consider himself an Abundance candidate, but I know a lot of people who are Abundance voters who like what he says. But if he doesn't deliver (like London Breed or Chesa Boudin in SF) then it will feel like a back-stab. Saying you'll help and then not delivering because all the funds go to lawyers an lobbyists feel like much more of direct betrayal than saying some cockamamie trickle-down theory that doesn't pan out.

Push-back is one thing, but ought right misrepresentation and disinformation is another. A lot of people talk about the books() as if they fell asleep listening to the audio book, and at the least even if they paid attention, don't understand the fill breadth of the people clamoring for it. For instance, Dunkelman's book is probably a superior one for understanding the breadth.

I have been posting Abundace themed threads for years:

I had also been posting anti-monopoly thread (in tech, because that's where I have worked my whole life):

But when a dangerous, xenophobic group started emerging on the left, I have been trying to find how to vent anxiety about it appropriately:

and of course this one.
 

ygolo

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I wouldn't necessarily characterize Zohran as an Abundance guy either but he's trying to win, not trying to sell some new brand of policy ideas. Ideally any democratic candidate co-opts what's resonating with the electorate, whether it's Klein + Thompson & co red tape cutting, Stoller + Khan monopoly busting, Bruenig esque social program wonkery, and DSA bluesky warrior class rage. Just steal what works to win and don't really worry too much about which group he truly belongs to. He's already cooled off a lot of his 2020 great awokening posturing so at least he learns quickly.
Indeed. Find what works and make it work ought to be a motto for anyone effective.
 
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