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[NF] Radical Evil in human nature?

SolitaryWalker

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Now cafe, here is the state of the case: you are not 'good' unless you perform complete self-abnegation. Namely everything that is part of you shall suffer. You, your children and everything that you like. Than maybe the next world shall enjoy paradise, but you shall never know about it nor find satisfaction that you've caused this.

This is the price for dissolution of evil.

I never said it was selfless. I said specifically that it was selfish.

Exactly. We cant be selfless. Because of this all of the good in the world has to be illusory.

Hence this necessarily follows.

Happiness is only a dream, pain is real.... I have experienced this for eighty years. I know of nothing better than to resign myself to this and to say flies are born to be eaten by spiders, and men to be devoured by trouble and affliction
 

cafe

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Exactly. We cant be selfless. Because of this all of the good in the world has to be illusory.

Hence this necessarily follows.
So my wanting a good thing for my grandchildren which would also result in a better place for everybody's grandchildren cannot possibly result in an actual better place because my motives are not pure? That's like saying that people cannot have been saved of dying from smallpox because one of the first men to vaccinate against it did so in order to protect his own family from the disease.
 

SolitaryWalker

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So my wanting a good thing for my grandchildren which would also result in a better place for everybody's grandchildren cannot possibly result in an actual better place because my motives are not pure? .

Yes. This is exactly what the scripture of how man is dead in his sins means.

Only through pure motives can we be saved. And man's motives are never pure. Nor could ever be.

People being saved from dying does not constitute the real good.
 

cafe

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Yes. This is exactly what the scripture of how man is dead in his sins means.

Only through pure motives can we be saved. And man's motives are never pure. Nor could ever be.

People being saved from dying does not constitute the real good.
Um, yeah. I think Paul would agree with you on that.
 

SolitaryWalker

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Um, yeah. I think Paul would agree with you on that.

Now do you see why I am saying that man is a futile passion? No 'magnanimity' on our part can lift the burden of depravity of us.
 

cafe

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Now do you see why I am saying that man is a futile passion? No 'magnanimity' on our part can lift the burden of depravity of us.
I've seen what you're saying all along. I just don't agree 100%. I believe that man is both evil and good. I don't believe that our good acts can redeem us, but I do not believe that good ceases to be good because it was done by someone who is less than perfect and has less than pure motives.
 

SolitaryWalker

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I've seen what you're saying all along. I just don't agree 100%. I believe that man is both evil and good. I don't believe that our good acts can redeem us, but I do not believe that good ceases to be good because it was done by someone who is less than perfect and has less than pure motives.


In a way we could do good, but we could never be good.
 

nightning

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In a way we could do good, but we could never be good.

Of course not! I thought this was settled way back... people are neither good nor bad... only their actions and intent can be perceived as such.
 

SolitaryWalker

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Of course not! I thought this was settled way back... people are neither good nor bad... only their actions and intent can be perceived as such.


Yet all actions, no matter how good they are lead to greater evil than good in the long run. Death is a great allegory for that. Everything we do, we do unto our eventual demise.
 

nightning

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Yet all actions, no matter how good they are lead to greater evil than good in the long run. Death is a great allegory for that. Everything we do, we do unto our eventual demise.

I agree that all actions leads to increase in entropy... which eventually will lead to energy death in the universe. (Assuming we just go by the Big Bang Theory rather than the Collapse & Expansion one) But doing nothing also leads to death in us just the same... so why sit there, do nothing, think of nothing and be bored out of our minds?
 

niffer

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I don't convince myself it's not there. I just see it as something we all have in common! Didn't humans invent morality? If we're all evil TOGETHER, then we could just say we're all WONDERFUL creatures, and it wouldn't change a thing~..
 

Totenkindly

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The reason why everything we do is evil because we are unconsciously driven by an urge to keep on living. If we lived in paradise, where there were no threats to our being, we would not need to worry about what we need to do to survive. We could then easily be concerned with the welfare of others instead of our own. And then and only then will evil be rendered impossible, because we would not need to be selfish in order to just live.

heh. I had this idea a few years back.
1. Humans possess natural drives towards self-survival and self-gratification (inborn). One provides the hardware to live, the other provides the software (loosely).
2. While this instinct is useful when we are babies, as we get older, it can become detrimental to ourselves and others, in terms of psychological and spiritual health. Both are short-term instincts, and we have to think long-term. These drives are become more and more "selfish" as we age and begin to take responsibility for those younger than us, who need us for their own maturation.
3. The Christian God (or perhaps other god concepts as well) offers both physical resurrection as well as fully-realized fulfillment....REGARDLESS of how we happen to feel in the short term. Because God is omnipotent, we do not have to fear death (i.e., the survival instinct); because God is good, we do not have to fear going unfulfilled, ultimately (the self-gratification instinct).
4. Thus, we are free to give to others / sacrifice / whatever else, rather than being enslaved by our own innate and ultimately selfish desires.

I'd point out that it's a fallacy to always assume these two drives are BAD/EVIL. They exist for a reason... and originally it was a good one. They simply easily become distorted, or take priority over things they have no business taking priority over.
 

Alienclock

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Dearest NFs?

How do you go about convincing yourselves that it is not really there?

If I believed in radical good then I would have to believe in radical evil. There is no good and evil. Both are nonsense. There is that which we like and that which we do not like. Thats it. Good and evil are pure subjectivity and only as worthwhile as you say they are.:rolli:

Yet all actions, no matter how good they are lead to greater evil than good in the long run. Death is a great allegory for that. Everything we do, we do unto our eventual demise.
Yes. So by your own definition, proving the illegitimacy of good, (encourages others to give up on it) a person who proves this could be considered radically evil. Or even the doo do doo doo, the Antichrist. So, in the face of all of this evil, all of this pointlessness, how does a person STOP themselves from committing whatever they consider a crime or evil... Especially considering its all going to fall apart anyway? :coffee:
 

Totenkindly

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If I believed in radical good then I would have to believe in radical evil. There is no good and evil. Both are nonsense. There is that which we like and that which we do not like. Thats it. Good and evil are pure subjectivity and only as worthwhile as you say they are.:rolli:

All right, let's throw out the words "good" and "evil" since they're so laden with baggage.

Let's instead talk about "that which is most beneficial in terms of healthy maturation for people" versus "that which erodes at healthy maturation if taken to its ultimate conclusion."

I think those positions can be a little more defensible, rather than simply saying all morality is a matter of preference. We know that certain behaviors and attitudes contribute in some way to growth, while others are erosive/corrosive regardless of personal feelings.
 

Alienclock

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All right, let's throw out the words "good" and "evil" since they're so laden with baggage.

Let's instead talk about "that which is most beneficial in terms of healthy maturation for people" versus "that which erodes at healthy maturation if taken to its ultimate conclusion."

I think those positions can be a little more defensible, rather than simply saying all morality is a matter of preference. We know that certain behaviors and attitudes contribute in some way to growth, while others are erosive/corrosive regardless of personal feelings.

Yeah, thats way better. I would say that there are beliefs, behaviors that are bad for the individual, and then bad for the species as a whole.

I would also say that extreme states of unhealthiness do exist, and the attitude or the idea that all life is pointless and inherently going to end in destruction, and all acts will end only in our death is probably one of them(one of those extreme states of un-health).

Then again, whats terrible for human kind might just be wonderful for the earth... So what is would be considered Not Good for Growth in that situation? :D You know I read somewhere that there was an extinction that happened in the oceans, where all these little thingy things died off, (went extinct) and their death farts are what caused oxygen to be released into the enviorment... if they could think, at least one of their kind would have been like, the end of the world is coming! Judgement day, all is sin! :shock: But obviously we are here now, breathing in their death farts, living life... :hug: What an act of great generosity and extreme sacrifice. How kind of them!
 

Totenkindly

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Then again, whats terrible for human kind might just be wonderful for the earth... So what is would be considered Not Good for Growth in that situation? :D You know I read somewhere that there was an extinction that happened in the oceans, where all these little thingy things died off, (went extinct) and their death farts are what caused oxygen to be released into the enviorment... if they could think, at least one of their kind would have been like, the end of the world is coming! Judgement day, all is sin! :shock: But obviously we are here now, breathing in their death farts, living life... :hug: What an act of great generosity and extreme sacrifice. How kind of them!

Very true. So let's arbitrarily confine our sphere of life to include simply the human species and what is most typically beneficial for its members, since that's mostly the sphere that human beings prioritize on a day-to-day basis.
 

ptgatsby

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Very true. So let's arbitrarily confine our sphere of life to include simply the human species and what is most typically beneficial for its members, since that's mostly the sphere that human beings prioritize on a day-to-day basis.

I'm just curious how the definition comes about; could the individual not claim the same thing? (And does it not also imply that what is moral is irrelevent outside the sphere - ie: torturing animals is ok as it is outside your sphere... torturing another human is ok as it is outside my sphere?)
 

Totenkindly

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I'm just curious how the definition comes about; could the individual not claim the same thing? (And does it not also imply that what is moral is irrelevent outside the sphere - ie: torturing animals is ok as it is outside your sphere... torturing another human is ok as it is outside my sphere?)

[thrown wrench shatters beautiful progression of conversation... sigh]

Yep, good objections.

I think one could claim there is a natural biological distinction simply from the perspective of sentience / species between humans and Other, but not really a substantial biological distinction among humans, the line between us and the rest of the world is not as really arbitrary but has some foundation.

But I think the second part is more interesting.... Perhaps torturing other humans could be seen as wrong if humanity is inclusive, but what ABOUT animals? Especially in situations where the torturing won't really impact the survival of humanity at all? Does any morality filter over in how we deal with things not involving HUMAN growth?

Or even a simple matter -- What about the eating of meat? Or plants? Obviously for people to flourish, something else must die. Is this morally defensibly, or is it "evil"?
 
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