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Matrix 4

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I will say, I'm glad this is here. I think Lana has a lot to say, as a lot has happened in the past 20 years, both in the world and to her personally. I really liked the attempt at Cloud Atlas, and I really was in to Sense8, hell, I even found things to like about Jupiter Ascending. The Wachowski's have big ideas, they think deeply about the human experience, and frankly they have delved into that human experience enough for me to always listen to what they have to say. There's a world where this is really good. And one where it's sort of meh and that's fine.

Need to finish Sense8. I stopped watching season 2 when I learned it was cancelled and I heard it ended on a cliffhanger. Did they ever end up doing that movie that tied up the loose ends that I heard about?

I think the Wachowskis don't always hit, but at least even their failures are interesting to look at. Jupiter Ascending is a pretty bad movie that I really wanted to like, but it looks really cool. It mind sound superficial that I'm praising them on this, but a lot of films these days don't even really do that. Speed Racer is really a better movie than it has any right to be. I like the Wachowskis because they always try to do something interesting, even if the results don't always work.
 

Totenkindly

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Need to finish Sense8. I stopped watching season 2 when I learned it was cancelled and I heard it ended on a cliffhanger. Did they ever end up doing that movie that tied up the loose ends that I heard about?

i have been looking at Sens8 info for the last day or two to determine whether I was gonna try again to watch it. (I made it about 5-6 episodes into the first season, it just felt interminably long to me the last time I tried... but I really want to get through it.)

Yes, my understanding is that the extra-long finale episode aired on June 8, 2018. So it's all there if you are committed to getting through it. The finale is supposed to double-down on the good and bad of the series, so pretty much it's what you might expect.

I think the Wachowskis don't always hit, but at least even their failures are interesting to look at. Jupiter Ascending is a pretty bad movie that I really wanted to like, but it looks really cool.

Yeah -- it's the only reason I would consider watching it again and/or getting a cheap 4k copy. The dialogue is just terrible, so bad it's difficult to get through the film.... but I remember it being so spectacularly gorgeous! I liked the three Abrasax siblings too.

"Cloud Atlas" is just near and dear to my heart, despite its flaws. I rewatch that movie on a pretty consistent basis. I think The Matrix, Cloud Atlas, and Bound are my favorites... I really would like Matrix 4 to work.

With the trailer coming out, I rewatched every movie. The Matrix, as always, just a 10/10 film. You can sort of see the dorky/cringe dialogue and elements that would infect the sequels but there is such a purpose to the story propelling everyone from one scene/revelation to the next, and none of the obtuse obfuscation in terms of dialogue that might seem deep on the surface but really just hides flimsy structure.

it's really quite elegant in that sense. The pacing is great, it's well-edited, the set and costume design is spectacular, and it's a very accessible film regardless of what the viewer brings to the table. Everyone feels like it is speaking to them, despite the fact it was mostly a secreted trans allegory story driving some of the metaphor. Christians and existentialists alike find meaning in it.

The Merovingian was an interesting look into this 3rd world of exiled programs but their conversation dragged and didn't have a lot of purpose.

The gist is that every effect needs a cause, and if you don't understand why you are doing something, then you're just a pawn of the effect pushing you towards a cause... but Lambert Wilson's scene-stealing aside, yeah, it's way too wordy and hard to understand how it actually reflects on our trio of leads. I mean, despite the Oracle supposedly providing insight to Neo, they are only going to get the Key at her orders, which suggests they are just pawns regardless (whether her plan, or the Architect's, or whoever's). The cake was just excess and belabored the point, although I guess it's unforgettable. To put it all another way, though -- I really liked what they were trying to say... if I could hone in on specifically how what they were saying applied to the plot.

The scene in the bathroom with Persephone might have been my favorite scene in the movie -- it is edited and shot and acted and scored so beautifully, and it's ominous, suggesting future inevitable loss. But it almost feels like it belongs in a different film.

I liked Smith's reveal as the virus he compared humanity to in the first film.

That was a really nice touch.

I will say, I'm glad this is here. I think Lana has a lot to say, as a lot has happened in the past 20 years, both in the world and to her personally. I really liked the attempt at Cloud Atlas, and I really was in to Sense8, hell, I even found things to like about Jupiter Ascending. The Wachowski's have big ideas, they think deeply about the human experience, and frankly they have delved into that human experience enough for me to always listen to what they have to say. There's a world where this is really good. And one where it's sort of meh and that's fine.

I'm feeling like part of the message of Reloaded and Revolutions was related to real-life issues for the Wachowskis, notably Lana with her marriage ending and also (based on the news flowing at the time) likely being when she was making incremental changes related to her gender transition even though it didn't become officially public for a few years. It's hard to be coherent about anything when you're immersed in all that inner turmoil, fear of how it will impact your life including career and well-being (they had quickly ascended up the success ladder, and were trying to hard to avoid any publicity), and then burning focus and energy to make those kind of changes clandestinely. A person only has so much sanity and mental/emotion energy to tap into. I wouldn't be surprised if this is one reason the later Matrix films suffered unfortunately, it's just a lot to deal with including the stress levels.
 
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Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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i have been looking at Sens8 info for the last day or two to determine whether I was gonna try again to watch it. (I made it about 5-6 episodes into the first season, it just felt interminably long to me the last time I tried... but I really want to get through it.)

Yes, my understanding is that the extra-long finale episode aired on June 8, 2018. So it's all there if you are committed to getting through it. The finale is supposed to double-down on the good and bad of the series, so pretty much it's what you might expect.
Thanks for the info. Yeah, knowing that there is actually an ending I think is sufficient motivation to finish it.
 

JocktheMotie

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The gist is that every effect needs a cause, and if you don't understand why you are doing something, then you're just a pawn of the effect pushing you towards a cause... but Lambert Wilson's scene-stealing aside, yeah, it's way too wordy and hard to understand how it actually reflects on our trio of leads. I mean, despite the Oracle supposedly providing insight to Neo, they are only going to get the Key at her orders, which suggests they are just pawns regardless (whether her plan, or the Architect's, or whoever's). The cake was just excess and belabored the point, although I guess it's unforgettable. To put it all another way, though -- I really liked what they were trying to say... if I could hone in on specifically how what they were saying applied to the plot.

The scene in the bathroom with Persephone might have been my favorite scene in the movie -- it is edited and shot and acted and scored so beautifully, and it's ominous, suggesting future inevitable loss. But it almost feels like it belongs in a different film.

I did like that counterpoint, that Neo + Co were just being shuffled around by another machination, another method of control but I think the salience of that point was lost in the verbosity and the cake distraction. I'll have to go through it again to see why else that didn't really work for me. Also, they sort of drop it too; they're not really given time to digest and reflect on The Merovingian's point as they're spirited away by Persephone and into the next fight sequence.
 

highlander

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I will see it. Have the DVD collection and it is one of several things I have watched a half dozen times.
 

Abcdenfp

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@JocktheMotie I agree with your sentiments on the Wachowskis , for someone like me they put the meat on the bone in a way i want to chew down to the marrow and that's unusual, The matrix brought me to Carl Jung, Alan Watts , Ram Dass, and ultimately to the curiosity of why and how we work. It showed me that there are layers to layers. which intuitively i always knew. I am going to watch this movie eye and mind open.
 

Totenkindly

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Surprised we don't really have a "Matrix" film thread, although I think it's been discussed elsewhere (I think Mal12345 and I tackled it a few times) and of course when the films aired in 1999-2003 this site did not exist.

My son has been itching to rewatch the last two films since we rewatched The Matrix in September (in prep for Matrix 4), so that happened last night. They do look great in large-screen 4K despite their age (aside from a few anomalies like Agent CGI jumping to the hood of a passenger car in The Big Highway Chase of M2).

I think M2 -- even if the response seems to vary depending on viewer -- is at least accessible. It's more plot-driven and can be followed, aside from the Architect's speech which some people understood on first watch but others had a harder time with. But it all teases itself out pretty easily upon examination, the plot is not confusing, and it can still be experienced emotionally because you know what's happening.

M3 is more difficult. There are moments I have an emotional response to something but it isn't consistent at all esp on first viewing. There's also some disappointment, as the film did not seem to be what anyone expected. Some interesting possibilities for plotting were completely ignored, other times the most boring / worst choice seemed to be taken. What was there didn't seem to hang together well at times. It took most people a few viewings (and some discussion) to grasp the framework of what was happening, and even if you understand the basics of it, at times it can be pretty much less than satisfying. There's also a lot of cuts that don't give the scene(s) time to breathe, and/or pithy dialogue that should have been excised or not been so cookie-cutter. The whole MOBIL / Train Station sequence (which providing useful info) seems very disconnected emotionally from the rest of the film. The film as a whole isn't as cohesive from an observer standpoint as it needed to be.

I'll say that on rewatch last night (after years of not seeing it), I had more forgiveness for the Zion battle sequence which was enjoyable as pure action on its own terms. It's actually internally cohesive overall (aside with a few stupid moments/lines -- "I believe, Neo!" and etc.) It's a hard film to tease bits out, though, because it's so interwoven with itself -- you can't really take out the dumb or incomprehensible parts without losing some good. It was also good to watch it with my son, he picked up a lot of what was happening this time through but had other questions I had explored a long time ago, so we could discuss them and understand it better together. He hadn't really understood the relevance of "The eyes of the Oracle" angle, which the Hel Club fight pretty much exists to support ("They can only be given, not taken," says Merv, and this is what the Oracle does in mid-film when Smith arrives... and couple this with the Oracle's revelation in M2 that "we can never see past the choices we don't understand" machines included, so this all plays out in the larger strategy of the game the Oracle is playing...)

Anyway, I guess we are set up for M4. I still have been specifically avoiding watching/reading much about it.

I still think Don Davis is MVP for M3 -- the music is incredible and totally supporting the film's fingerprint/identity, if not defining it in some ways. it's too bad he's not returning for M4, although I did like Tykwer's work on Cloud Atlas.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and Gloria Foster. So sad she died in 2001 before she could film her scenes for Matrix Revolutions, although I guess it offers the film more foreboding/gloom with the change in "shell" for the Oracle. She was absolutely mesmerizing in whatever scenes she was in -- and if you grasp the plots of the films, she's actually the main player (often behind the scenes or subtly). I am motivated to dig up her old films from the 60's and 70's.
 
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Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Surprised we don't really have a "Matrix" film thread, although I think it's been discussed elsewhere (I think Mal12345 and I tackled it a few times) and of course when the films aired in 1999-2003 this site did not exist.

My son has been itching to rewatch the last two films since we rewatched The Matrix in September (in prep for Matrix 4), so that happened last night. They do look great in large-screen 4K despite their age (aside from a few anomalies like Agent CGI jumping to the hood of a passenger car in The Big Highway Chase of M2).

I think M2 -- even if the response seems to vary depending on viewer -- is at least accessible. It's more plot-driven and can be followed, aside from the Architect's speech which some people understood on first watch but others had a harder time with. But it all teases itself out pretty easily upon examination, the plot is not confusing, and it can still be experienced emotionally because you know what's happening.

M3 is more difficult. There are moments I have an emotional response to something but it isn't consistent at all esp on first viewing. There's also some disappointment, as the film did not seem to be what anyone expected. Some interesting possibilities for plotting were completely ignored, other times the most boring / worst choice seemed to be taken. What was there didn't seem to hang together well at times. It took most people a few viewings (and some discussion) to grasp the framework of what was happening, and even if you understand the basics of it, at times it can be pretty much less than satisfying. There's also a lot of cuts that don't give the scene(s) time to breathe, and/or pithy dialogue that should have been excised or not been so cookie-cutter. The whole MOBIL / Train Station sequence (which providing useful info) seems very disconnected emotionally from the rest of the film. The film as a whole isn't as cohesive from an observer standpoint as it needed to be.

I'll say that on rewatch last night (after years of not seeing it), I had more forgiveness for the Zion battle sequence which was enjoyable as pure action on its own terms. It's actually internally cohesive overall (aside with a few stupid moments/lines -- "I believe, Neo!" and etc.) It's a hard film to tease bits out, though, because it's so interwoven with itself -- you can't really take out the dumb or incomprehensible parts without losing some good. It was also good to watch it with my son, he picked up a lot of what was happening this time through but had other questions I had explored a long time ago, so we could discuss them and understand it better together. He hadn't really understood the relevance of "The eyes of the Oracle" angle, which the Hel Club fight pretty much exists to support ("They can only be given, not taken," says Merv, and this is what the Oracle does in mid-film when Smith arrives... and couple this with the Oracle's revelation in M2 that "we can never see past the choices we don't understand" machines included, so this all plays out in the larger strategy of the game the Oracle is playing...)

Anyway, I guess we are set up for M4. I still have been specifically avoiding watching/reading much about it.

I still think Don Davis is MVP for M3 -- the music is incredible and totally supporting the film's fingerprint/identity, if not defining it in some ways. it's too bad he's not returning for M4, although I did like Tykwer's work on Cloud Atlas.
What do you mean about the eyes of the oracle? I watched the original matrix in September, I was going to go to the other two at some point.
 

Totenkindly

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What do you mean about the eyes of the oracle? I watched the original matrix in September, I was going to go to the other two at some point.
It shows up thematically possibly in the "Enter the Matrix" game but overtly in The Matrix Revolutions. (I suspect you can find compiled cutscenes for the game on YouTube if necessary.)

I don't want to spoiler much but early in the third film the Merovingian offers to release Neo back to Morpheus and Trinity in exchange for the "eyes of the Oracle." Yes, it's technically what it sounds like, although it is more referring to her prescience -- it plays an important role in how the film unfolds, including the ending.
 
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