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Male Advocacy Thread

Siúil a Rúin

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Those are good responses. I do think women can pose a realistic threat to men with violence because there are guns. Also, women can cause extreme emotional abuse and I've known some who feel entitled to have their male partner work excessive hours to supply what they want. If that shortens their life, then yes, the woman has contributed to killing the person.

I think there are subcultures where women are oppressed and some systemic issues of pay imbalance, but women have demonstrated absolute violence. Statistically the rates are reported higher for men, but I've personally seen tons of violence from women both physical and emotional. I grew up in the west where girls in school would fist fight every bit as much as the guys. I saw violent locker room fights in 7th grade. I don't think any of that enters statistics. The last city I lived had violent crime, the worst of which was divided evenly between the genders.

There is no excuse for "kill all the men" talk. It is immoral and stupid. Yes, coming from a place of personal pain, then think about retribution for your attacker. To extend it to all men or all humans is not more excusable for women.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I also think there is a serious issue with rape allegations. It is an extremely difficult topic because once a sexual assault allegation is made, any incorrect response is a serious moral violation. If the person was attacked and not believed, that is a serious moral violation of that person. Also, if the person was not attacked or is now conflating the incident and not owning up to their choice in it, and the accused is damaged, that is also a serious moral offense.

There are many types of sexual experiences and ways people can feel shame and violation. Some of these occur as rape in which the consent of one person is clearly violated and there is no point in the process in which the person desired what was happening. There are also choices made by feeling pressured in one way or another, so that consent is made, but compromised in some manner. That is complex, but also a different premise from the clear violation of consent. There are also times people choose sexual behaviors that later cause them shame and regret, but they did consent at the time.

My concern is that there can be times in every person's life where they make a sexual choice that they later regret because it makes them feel shame, confusion, etc. It is still possible to have consented at the time, and then bait and switch with a rape allegation to justify the indiscretion. I think it is important for women and men to maintain self honesty about choices that they did make. This provides much more empowerment than to reframe past indiscretions as being the fault of the other party. If people own up to the degree their choice and consent was made, then that means they have the power to make a different choice in the future. If it is framed as being helpless and victimized, even when both parties participated, then I think that is more damaging to the person with regrets. My main concern is when someone does not say 'no', they do not push the person away, but they do participate to a degree that it is reasonable for the other party to see it as consent, then it isn't right to go back and reframe it as rape out of personal regret of choice.

To be clear, the above grey area discussion is complex and not intended to replace the issue of clear consent violation and rape. This may cause intense responses, so please read it twice. I think this is a huge issue in male advocacy and gender power imbalances.

Edit: I was to be explicitly clear I'm not talking about violation of minors, but I'm talking about adults making decisions they later regret and so forth.
 

Coriolis

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There is no excuse for "kill all the men" talk. It is immoral and stupid. Yes, coming from a place of personal pain, then think about retribution for your attacker. To extend it to all men or all humans is not more excusable for women.
I agree. There is no excuse for anyone to speak of "killing all the _________". I would be more tolerant of an individual woman (or man) saying they wished they could kill their SO or some specific person who had egregiously wronged them, though of course I would hope that is merely venting and not true murderous intent. Still, every time I read that poster's "isn't it convenient . . . " I thought no, it isn't convenient, it's statistical. I cannot argue with gender-balanced violence statistics as you reported, but male on female physical violence still predominates over the alternative, if only because of physical size differences and gender bias in upbringing. The many men who do fear for their lives usually are at risk from other men, not women. Yes, violence is violence, but that threat cannot be tied to an angry woman's call to "kill all men". It is fine to explain to such a woman how misguided such a sentiment is, but it doesn't help to try to put on a shoe that doesn't fit. Men who treat women respectfully as fellow humans know who they are, and also know that many men behave otherwise, sane distinctions apply to women.

I also think there is a serious issue with rape allegations. It is an extremely difficult topic because once a sexual assault allegation is made, any incorrect response is a serious moral violation. If the person was attacked and not believed, that is a serious moral violation of that person. Also, if the person was not attacked or is now conflating the incident and not owning up to their choice in it, and the accused is damaged, that is also a serious moral offense.

There are many types of sexual experiences and ways people can feel shame and violation. Some of these occur as rape in which the consent of one person is clearly violated and there is no point in the process in which the person desired what was happening. There are also choices made by feeling pressured in one way or another, so that consent is made, but compromised in some manner. That is complex, but also a different premise from the clear violation of consent. There are also times people choose sexual behaviors that later cause them shame and regret, but they did consent at the time.

My concern is that there can be times in every person's life where they make a sexual choice that they later regret because it makes them feel shame, confusion, etc. It is still possible to have consented at the time, and then bait and switch with a rape allegation to justify the indiscretion. I think it is important for women and men to maintain self honesty about choices that they did make. This provides much more empowerment than to reframe past indiscretions as being the fault of the other party. If people own up to the degree their choice and consent was made, then that means they have the power to make a different choice in the future. If it is framed as being helpless and victimized, even when both parties participated, then I think that is more damaging to the person with regrets. My main concern is when someone does not say 'no', they do not push the person away, but they do participate to a degree that it is reasonable for the other party to see it as consent, then it isn't right to go back and reframe it as rape out of personal regret of choice.
We need to start treating rape like other crimes, starting with taking victims seriously when they report it. If someone reports theft of property, the police don't start by asking the victim if they merely misplaced it, or perhaps really meant to lend it to the thief. Even if someone left their front door wide open and a valuable item on prominent display in the window - actions most people would consider stupid - someone who walks in and takes the item without permission is still considered a thief and prosecuted as such.

Now suggesting that there is anything rape victims can do to reduce their chances of being a target is usually dismissed as victim blaming, a criticism for which I have no patience. Is it victim blaming to tell that robbery victim that he should have at least locked his front door? How about advising a man not to go to a rough part of town wearing a fancy suit and Rolex watch? Yes, the thief, rapist, or mugger is always to blame, but if we prefer to avoid such incidents rather than rely on police to catch and prosecute culprits, there are simple things we can do to minimize (not nullify) our chances of being a target. This is just common sense. As for engaging in sexual behavior one regrets later, well, my threshold for trust in such cases is extremely high so I can't really relate to that one. Different strokes, I suppose.
 

Doctor Anaximander

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I don't see women in general as a threat. No more than I would see men in general as a threat. I do see a threat in any ideological narrative that encourages blanket dismissal of any one group's hurdles or suffering on baseless hyperbole and emotionally charged rhetoric. I would try to apply that standard equally to any men's advocacy ideology and female advocacy ideologies. To me, people like Clementine Ford are just as reprehensible and irresponsible as people like Paul Elam. They blanket hateful, dismissive rhetoric in trojan horses.
 

Magic Poriferan

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Putting aside anything else in this thread, just regarding the excuses for comments like "more men should die"...

I've seen it as an increasingly common rhetorical frame for leftists (on all topics of discrimination) say what can be summarized as: "I've been traumatized so much, I'm too emotionally compromised to be accountable".

Whenever I see this, I want to say, as a friend...

Are you sure that's the frame you want to go with? Maybe take a moment to think that through before you commit to it.

If someone tells me something like that, my perception is that I should relieve them of all responsibility and take control of anything. I think I can pretty safely guess that this is not the response minority activists want. So perhaps don't advertise yourself as non compus mentus?
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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That MensLib subreddit is really good. I subscribed to it some time ago but I haven't looked at until now. It's yet another thing that was desperately needed but didn't exist for a long time finally becoming a reality. The fact that this is happening in so many areas is why I remain optimistic.

Take this:How come its common for young men to be so disproportionately frustrated and angry in general? : MensLib

Younger guys especially need resources that aren't part of the PUA-to-blackpill pipeline.
 

Doctor Anaximander

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That MensLib subreddit is really good. I subscribed to it some time ago but I haven't looked at until now. It's yet another thing that was desperately needed but didn't exist for a long time finally becoming a reality. The fact that this is happening in so many areas is why I remain optimistic.

Take this:How come its common for young men to be so disproportionately frustrated and angry in general? : MensLib

Younger guys especially need resources that aren't part of the PUA-to-blackpill pipeline.

It's a little hit or miss for me. Sometimes there's good threads, but some of it makes me cringe. I prefer the left wing male advocates subreddit. They tend to have good dialogues and constructive criticisms and suggestions. I rarely look at the MRA subreddit.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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It's a little hit or miss for me. Sometimes there's good threads, but some of it makes me cringe. I prefer the left wing male advocates subreddit. They tend to have good dialogues and constructive criticisms and suggestions. I rarely look at the MRA subreddit.

What's that one called? I don't know that one.
 

Doctor Anaximander

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the whole Depp-Heard situation is something I'm reluctant to address. There was a lot of toxicity in that relationship, so I think it's unfair to place total blame on Heard. Depp is far from a perfect human being, though the way he was essentially blacklisted and turned into persona non grata so quickly...it says a lot about the conclusions people tend to jump to and the default assumptions people tend to have in cases where it turns out domestic violence is reciprocal

- - - Updated - - -

What's that one called? I don't know that one.

LeftWingMaleAdvocates
 

Doctor Anaximander

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I’m cringing that I made this thread. Sorry, folks. I would delete it if I could. Feeling guilty.
 

Red Memories

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I’m cringing that I made this thread. Sorry, folks. I would delete it if I could. Feeling guilty.

Is it really wrong though? Like...you opened resources and tried to bridge an actually open gap of compassion toward a group of people. This doesn't discredit arguments against men who really promote toxic masculinity and horrible assaults. This is asking for mercy to not just be lumped into this, and to have a fair trial.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I've felt there needs to be a male advocacy movement in Hollywood to balance the one for women. One complex aspect of gender relationships is that the manner in which women abuse doesn't always get measured in statistics because it tends to be more psychological and emotional abuse, but that can be just as serious. We've seen how verbal abuse is used to coerce people to suicide even online. It is a well established form of violence, but is unlikely to be measured as accurately as physical abuse.
 

Doctor Anaximander

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I've felt there needs to be a male advocacy movement in Hollywood to balance the one for women. One complex aspect of gender relationships is that the manner in which women abuse doesn't always get measured in statistics because it tends to be more psychological and emotional abuse, but that can be just as serious. We've seen how verbal abuse is used to coerce people to suicide even online. It is a well established form of violence, but is unlikely to be measured as accurately as physical abuse.

Greater awareness of mental health issues might eventually allow us to more accurately quantify the extent and effects of emotional abuse in all types of relationships. Excellent post.
 
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