How would you differentiate between Fours and Nines?

[mintleaf]

Interesting. If you have an extra 10 bucks, do this one and then let's talk tritype in more depth.
The Professional Enneagram Test and Tritype® Test: http://www.enneagram.net/tests/index.html#fullenneacards

For me, the social instinct pushes me to engage with the world more, I think, so I suspect I seem more present. And more ENFP in appearance as a result, since people do not believe I am an introvert. (Especially with 7 in my tritype.)

So, since I identify with 9w1 so/sx as you do, I am interested to see how far down the rabbit hole we can go here. Share your results and thoughts.

I'm about to be a poor college student, so I'm trying to save as much money as possible. But I'm pretty sure of my tritype - positive of 9w1, 5, and 2, just not 100% on the wings.

Yeah, I relate. I've always been prone to solipsism, detachment, etc., but I really value engagement, so it's natural for me to divert from my initial instincts to more global directions. (hopefully that makes sense?) I can look more like an ENFx at times, too.

What are your thoughts?

 

[highlander]

:
9s can actually be utterly detached from their feelings, causing them to have this peaceful, push-over "everyone smile and hold hands" facade to protect themselves from their own anger or assertion of their own will (because they don't want to be abandoned from their ideal of holy love), or if they're really unhealthy ...they're just fucking cold. Like literally "I feel nothing for you." A

Maybe your perception differs but I often find that 9s are extremely plagued by this mental haziness that they use to cover up reality, which is why 9s are also often described as idealists. You may not agree with this perception of yourself but then you might perhaps ought to ask yourself if you disagree because you are doing exactly the same thing, i.e. trying to idealize reality because you refuse to see this aspect of yourself just like almost every 9 I've come across thus far has, or do you do it because reality is exactly how you perceive it?

And of course, a 9, especially an unhealthy 9, can be reactive like a 6. I never claimed otheriwse. But if we speak of general pathological tendencies and study type as a whole, 9s dislike and avoid conflict. This is how they withdraw by trying to create harmony and "giving up" on themselves by not asserting themselves. In contrast, a 5 withdraws in order to think over the situation and understand their feelings (I would say there's a very specific 8-strategy nature over the way the 8 withdraws) and 4s do it to instigate an emotional reaction.

I am curious. If a 9w1 were to say they "feel things very deeply", wouldn't that contradict some of what people are saying in this thread? Does that make sense to you?

 

[greenfairy]

Maybe you have a strong 4 fix?

Oh who knows. I'm thinking 9, 6, and 3. But I haven't thoroughly researched it yet. Maybe in a couple of weeks once classes end.

I am curious. If a 9w1 were to say they "feel things very deeply", wouldn't that contradict some of what people are saying in this thread? Does that make sense to you?

How do you know if you feel things deeply? How would one know if they felt things shallowly? How do you compare if you only know your own emotions? I know I feel strong emotions occasionally and other times when people would be devastated by things I'm just like 'well, it happens.'

 

[cafe]

I feel vicarious things intensely and immediately. My own stuff is a little harder to get hold of and I usually don't know what I'm feeling until I bump into something or someone else. Like, I won't know I'm cranky until I feel like snapping at someone. Weather has a huge effect on my moods and if you ask me how I feel, I'm most likely going to settle on a physical sensation like hunger or sleepiness rather than my emotional state.

I do like to know what my emotional state is if I'm feeling something strongly enough for it to show up on the radar and I will usually stop and analyze my feelings then instead of just shoving them aside and getting to business, because the static they create in my brain is too distracting for me to function and it recedes a bit once I've figured out what's causing it, what it is, and whether or not I can do something about it. Generally, I consider feelings pesky things that have to be managed so they don't mess things up. I mean, they have value as indicators of my well-being and stuff, but I don't revel in them.

No idea if that means anything, though.

 

[Entropic]

Er, no.

I'll give Abraham Lincoln as an example, pretty much universally typed as a 9w1, and a person who had clinical, recurring depression. From here: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2005/10/lincolns-great-depression/304247/ I highly recommend reading the whole article.

Here's a poem, said to be written by Lincoln:

Here, where the lonely hooting owl
Sends forth his midnight moans,
Fierce wolves shall o'er my carcase growl,
Or buzzards pick my bones.

No fellow-man shall learn my fate,
Or where my ashes lie;
Unless by beasts drawn round their bait,
Or by the ravens' cry.

Yes! I've resolved the deed to do,
And this the place to do it:
This heart I'll rush a dagger through
Though I in hell should rue it!

Yes, but I think the fact he has clinical depression puts another spin on it entirely. The 9 is still positive outlook and it was this essence I was trying to capture.

 

[Entropic]

Depends on what's meant by idealism. There's "the cherishing or pursuit of principles, purposes, goals, etc." definition and then there's "the tendency to represent/perceive things in an ideal form, or as they might or should be rather than as they are." I identify with the first. One of my most strongly held "principles" is to avoid the second definition. I've honestly never struggled much with it. I'm incredibly more afraid of interpreting the world incorrectly than of discovering the world to be less than ideal.

Might be true for you but I've also seen plenty of 9s doing the latter.

I would think that a lot of other 9s relate to this definition of idealism, too, rather than to the covering up of reality. Like you said, that only happens when a 9 over-focuses on the external world and doesn't devote enough energy to reflection.

Yes, but then it's a health level thing. You seem to be at a quite healthy place.

It's interesting that you brought up the concept of internal/external in relation to 9s. Like you said, 9s seek a balance / merging of the two. So I would say that unhealthy nines can go one of two ways: unhealthy focus on external -> weak intrapersonal skills (sense of self, introspection, reflection, etc.); unhealthy focus on internal -> lack of engagement with the world. Would you agree with that?

No idea. I've seen unhealthy 9s do the latter too. I think it depends on the individual. There is a specific individual I know right now who is so lost in his own mind that he's convinced he's a person he's not at all to the point that even if you just mildly suggest to him that what he's doing is indicative of 9-ness, not the type he claims to be, it's like he went in one ear and through the other and he keeps talking about how he is definitely this type. Just such an extreme sense of self-denial and he definitely sees himself as introspective. I often see this coming from 9s, especially in type me threads, but what's interesting is that these 9s often have issues scratching beyond the surface of themselves. It's like this kind of introspection just doesn't come naturally to them and the health levels have been varying greatly too.

Yep, most of what you've written is fair enough if we're talking about general tendencies. I just want to reiterate that 9's detachment as a defense mechanism is not always cognitive (i.e. mental haziness). A lot of the time it's just emotional.

What does this pertain, exactly?

I am curious. If a 9w1 were to say they "feel things very deeply", wouldn't that contradict some of what people are saying in this thread? Does that make sense to you?

No. There's a difference in being able to feel others very deeply and feeling yourself deeply. I am primarily talking about the latter, something many 9s have difficulties doing.

 

[brainheart]

I am curious. If a 9w1 were to say they "feel things very deeply", wouldn't that contradict some of what people are saying in this thread? Does that make sense to you?

I feel things very deeply. It's why I thought for sure I had to be a four. But I'm not. I'm a nine. The difference is I have a tendency not to show it in order to keep the peace. I don't hide my feelings from myself, just from others. After doing that for awhile, depression and a numbness can occur and I can feel very tired and apathetic. I can give up. But the feelings are still there.

 

[brainheart]

Yes, but I think the fact he has clinical depression puts another spin on it entirely. The 9 is still positive outlook and it was this essence I was trying to capture.

So perhaps you were trying to capture the positive outlook essence, but that doesn't take away the fact that here is an example of an emotionally unstable nine. You can make comparisons like 'nines are emotionally stable while fours aren't', but there are plenty of depressive, melancholic 9w1s and plenty of optimistic 4w3s. All it does is confuse people. I think, if anything, nines are more likely to appear positive while internally often being quite negative. This is where the resigned apathy comes from. It's a sort of 'things work out great for others and I will make sure things work out great for others but I've given up on myself, because I don't really matter.' That's precisely why nines integrate to three. Threes see themselves as something special, while nines see a lack.

I would put it more like this: Both fours and nines can be independent and individualistic, but a nine will avoid asserting themselves for the sake of keeping the peace while a four would not. For fours, asserting their individuality trumps peaceful relations, while for nine it's the opposite.

 

[mintleaf]

Might be true for you but I've also seen plenty of 9s doing the latter.

That's true. I was (am) just concerned that you're under the impression that the majority of 9s are this way.

Yes, but then it's a health level thing. You seem to be at a quite healthy place.

Doesn't apply to unhealthy 9s across the board. (maybe it has to do with the whole internal/external thing.) The same version of 'idealistic' applied to me at my very worst.

What does this pertain, exactly?

Emotional detachment? well, I looked up the wikipedia articles for this and depersonalization (detachment in its extreme form)

[emotional detachment] is a means of dealing with anxiety by preventing certain situations that trigger it.

Subjects feel they have changed, and the world has become vague, dreamlike, less real, or lacking in significance. It can be a disturbing experience, since many feel that, indeed, they are living in a 'dream.'

Often a person who has experienced depersonalization claims that things seem unreal or hazy. Also, a recognition of self breaks down (hence the name). Depersonalization can result in very high anxiety levels, which further increase these perceptions.

"During episodic and continuous depersonalization, sufferers are able to distinguish between reality and fantasy, and their grasp on reality remains stable at all times.

I don't know how well other 9s relate, but this is what's happened with me. (health level 8 according to Ennegram Institute.) And it wasn't preceded by a lack of introspection, just prolonged stress, anxiety, and avoidance; I never consciously make the decision to stop having emotional reactions. It just happens when I refuse to act on what I've gained from introspection. The stifled growth and the subconscious buildup of emotional tension has awful repercussions. So I wonder if the mentions of dissociation in relation to unhealthy 9s has less to do with a weak grasp of reality than a subconscious, visceral suppression of it.

 

[Dying Acedia]

How do you know if you feel things deeply? How would one know if they felt things shallowly? How do you compare if you only know your own emotions? I know I feel strong emotions occasionally and other times when people would be devastated by things I'm just like 'well, it happens.'

I experience other people's emotions deeply, and emotions for other people deeply, because they course through my body and pass out the same way wine is converted into urine. I can get drunk on the feeling, but it only numbs me from my own feelings, and in the end it leaves no mark because it is not my own.

For emotions that pertain to me, ones that "effect me" I almost always numb myself to them. I may have a dream metaphor about my problems and cry about it, but so long as it's not something that causes pain through my concrete experiences, I don't shut it out. Except for anger, which for me, I think, is a type of numbing. I'm 8-like in how I deal with anger, so rather than dealing with pain I often just feel like punching something.

Also...

I feel vicarious things intensely and immediately. My own stuff is a little harder to get hold of and I usually don't know what I'm feeling until I bump into something or someone else. Like, I won't know I'm cranky until I feel like snapping at someone. Weather has a huge effect on my moods and if you ask me how I feel, I'm most likely going to settle on a physical sensation like hunger or sleepiness rather than my emotional state.

This paragraph, especially the bolded, is how I experience my emotions. I will tend to have physical sensations for a while and have to "relearn" what the emotions mean. For example, I know what shame is, but I can find myself feeling seemingly nothing, and then I think about what I'm experiencing. "I guess I'm trying to hide from other people. What is that feeling? That is shame." Yet I can readily identify those things in other people.

 

[Entropic]

So perhaps you were trying to capture the positive outlook essence, but that doesn't take away the fact that here is an example of an emotionally unstable nine. You can make comparisons like 'nines are emotionally stable while fours aren't', but there are plenty of depressive, melancholic 9w1s and plenty of optimistic 4w3s. All it does is confuse people. I think, if anything, nines are more likely to appear positive while internally often being quite negative. This is where the resigned apathy comes from. It's a sort of 'things work out great for others and I will make sure things work out great for others but I've given up on myself, because I don't really matter.' That's precisely why nines integrate to three. Threes see themselves as something special, while nines see a lack.

I would put it more like this: Both fours and nines can be independent and individualistic, but a nine will avoid asserting themselves for the sake of keeping the peace while a four would not. For fours, asserting their individuality trumps peaceful relations, while for nine it's the opposite.

I never mentioned emotional positivity/negativity in itself, did I? And 4s is a withdrawn type so I am not sure I agree with that logic either.

 

[greenfairy]

I experience other people's emotions deeply, and emotions for other people deeply, because they course through my body and pass out the same way wine is converted into urine. I can get drunk on the feeling, but it only numbs me from my own feelings, and in the end it leaves no mark because it is not my own.

For emotions that pertain to me, ones that "effect me" I almost always numb myself to them. I may have a dream metaphor about my problems and cry about it, but so long as it's not something that causes pain through my concrete experiences, I don't shut it out. Except for anger, which for me, I think, is a type of numbing. I'm 8-like in how I deal with anger, so rather than dealing with pain I often just feel like punching something.

Also...



This paragraph, especially the bolded, is how I experience my emotions. I will tend to have physical sensations for a while and have to "relearn" what the emotions mean. For example, I know what shame is, but I can find myself feeling seemingly nothing, and then I think about what I'm experiencing. "I guess I'm trying to hide from other people. What is that feeling? That is shame." Yet I can readily identify those things in other people.

I can identify with a less extreme form of this for both myself and others. I wonder why you feel others' emotions more strongly than your own? For me it's equal.

 

[Dying Acedia]

I can identify with a less extreme form of this for both myself and others. I wonder why you feel others' emotions more strongly than your own? For me it's equal.

It has to do with control. Since my own emotions are spontaneous responses and are grounded in my experiences, they give me pain. So I've habituated myself to be closed off from them. Others' emotions are more distant initially, but I can tune in and get involved as I so choose, so usually I'm accustomed to feeling them more intensely.

Incidentally, if I'm counseling someone and that person offends me, like literally directly insults me on purpose, for a moment I usually feel pretty intensely angry before "severing the link." Or if I've shut myself in a room with no sensations and am deeply engaged in an activity where I forget myself, any disturbance (opened door, intercom, etc.) will be experienced very intensely before I ramp up to my usual apathetic/numb state. The last one I'd expect most people to relate to somewhat, as it's part of the startle response, but extending that to emotional connection I'm not so sure it's universal.

 

[greenfairy]

It has to do with control. Since my own emotions are spontaneous responses and are grounded in my experiences, they give me pain. So I've habituated myself to be closed off from them. Others' emotions are more distant initially, but I can tune in and get involved as I so choose, so usually I'm accustomed to feeling them more intensely.

Incidentally, if I'm counseling someone and that person offends me, like literally directly insults me on purpose, for a moment I usually feel pretty intensely angry before "severing the link." Or if I've shut myself in a room with no sensations and am deeply engaged in an activity where I forget myself, any disturbance (opened door, intercom, etc.) will be experienced very intensely before I ramp up to my usual apathetic/numb state. The last one I'd expect most people to relate to somewhat, as it's part of the startle response, but extending that to emotional connection I'm not so sure it's universal.

Sorry for not reading the entire thread, but would I be right in guessing that 4's experience their own emotions more intensely than others, or at least more intensely than 9's? This is the gist of what I've read about 9's, as it says that the way they deal with stress is to become numb.

 

[gromit]

I feel vicarious things intensely and immediately. My own stuff is a little harder to get hold of and I usually don't know what I'm feeling until I bump into something or someone else. Like, I won't know I'm cranky until I feel like snapping at someone. Weather has a huge effect on my moods and if you ask me how I feel, I'm most likely going to settle on a physical sensation like hunger or sleepiness rather than my emotional state.

Haha. This happened to me today with my sister.

Actually if I'm cranky by myself, it's easy to tell. Other people displaying their emotions strongly, it can overshadow my own sometimes.

 

[cafe]

Sorry for not reading the entire thread, but would I be right in guessing that 4's experience their own emotions more intensely than others, or at least more intensely than 9's? This is the gist of what I've read about 9's, as it says that the way they deal with stress is to become numb.

Sometimes I don't realize I'm stressed until I notice the physical symptoms or I start making stupid mistakes, like locking my keys in the car or paying for stuff and then walking off without it. Of course, I do some of that stuff even when I'm not stressed.

 

[greenfairy]

Interesting. I've noticed that not only is being somewhat out of touch with emotions a trait of INTP's and to some extent ENTP's, it is also common to E-9's and INFJ's (although INFJ's are highly variable, and NTP's can of course be emotional).

 

[Dying Acedia]

Sorry for not reading the entire thread, but would I be right in guessing that 4's experience their own emotions more intensely than others, or at least more intensely than 9's? This is the gist of what I've read about 9's, as it says that the way they deal with stress is to become numb.

Well, the 4 fixation is "melancholy" (sorrow), meaning that they cling onto their suffering (nearly opposite of 9). So if nothing else, 4s consciously suffer more often and completely than their 9 counterparts. Usually this means that 4s will perceive themselves as having more intense negative emotions than others around them.

 

[Entropic]

Well, the 4 fixation is "melancholy" (sorrow), meaning that they cling onto their suffering (nearly opposite of 9). So if nothing else, 4s consciously suffer more often and completely than their 9 counterparts. Usually this means that 4s will perceive themselves as having more intense negative emotions than others around them.

Sorry for not reading the entire thread, but would I be right in guessing that 4's experience their own emotions more intensely than others, or at least more intensely than 9's? This is the gist of what I've read about 9's, as it says that the way they deal with stress is to become numb.

Yes, this is why Naranjo calls them masochist. They revel in their own personal pain and suffering.