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[Type 4] Fours and Envy? (And any other types)

Venus Rose

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--
 
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Siúil a Rúin

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I'm so sorry you have had to face this sort of rejection Rose for a Heart. :hug:
I would say that is a different sort of envy from the standard type where people want their neighbor's house and money, etc. When the most important person in your life rejects you and makes you feel like you aren't enough, that is a deeper, authentic sort of pain. I've experienced rejection and being insignificant to someone who meant everything to me.

I don't know if I can say anything to help because we just meant, but it does hurt my heart every time I see a kind person be hurt in this world. There are a lot of very cruel, hurtful people in the world. I have a hard time knowing what to do with that in my own mind. No one has a right to tear you down and make you feel destroyed, but people will try. :( I feel like my words fall short, but please know that there are kind people who will treat you well. They are rare in their world, but they do exist. I hope you can keep trying until you find someone like that.

I've reached a point where I almost recklessly push the hurtful people away. My tolerance for hurtful people is minimal at this point. We have finite amount of time and energy, so it's worth pushing away anyone who causes hurt and destruction in your life. Focus on those few genuinely kind, good people. Even if it's only one in a hundred, that still means there are a lot of them out there, but they can be hard to find at times. :hug:
 

iwakar

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I have never considered myself an envious person, but I know that your worst fears can be so unconscious you do not even know they exist. I know that social fours are said to be rather ashamed of their anger and aggression which perhaps makes them less likely to be in touch with envy? I wonder how sexual and self-pres fours experience this.

For context, I am a mid-30s INFJ 4w5 sx/sp.

Personally, I am not ashamed of my anger and aggression. I dislike that I cannot conceal it more or manage it more closely so that it doesn't affect the people around me. (But this is true of all my intense emotions.)

I am very aware of my envy and of its mostly negative impact on me and I do my best to shake it off at regular intervals.

As for your feelings of rejection, I can relate all too well, and I wish there was something clever and wise that I could say to help with that, but I can't. I can only say that time, distance, and self-awareness will lessen that sting considerably... and finding someone who values your individual gifts is the closest thing to merciful amnesia I've ever known.
 

small.wonder

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[MENTION=28390]Rose for a Heart[/MENTION] First, I'm glad you posted here, and I value the honesty in which you described what you are feeling. I'd say you are correct in identifying as So-first, as Social 4's tend to bemoan (express verbally or through writing) feeling rejected. Naranjo calls it "suffering vocally". Here's an info graphic (it's the second image in the post) that I made on 4 instincts, since you expressed an interest in how the different varieties express envy.

Sx tends to envy in a more destructive way, that "causes others to suffer". A main difference between that and SO, is that SX-4 is sometimes called the "shameless" 4 because there is a demanding nature in regards to what we don't have. SO on the other hand is the most shame filled of the 4 variations.

But he painted me this thankless, worthless girl who needs to embody these qualities to be of any worth. I was never worth anything to him. And he isn't the first to tell me I am worthless either (not directly).

I think that SX and SO 4 react differently to feeling villianized (as you described here). SO tends to wallow more, withdraw, become overwhelmed with shame. SX on the other hand, is more prone to indignation that (from my experience) turns destructive-- something like, "you want me to be a villian?! I'll be a villian." Naranjo calls SX 4 "Cain-like", this of course is the "causes others to suffer" bit. Super ugly, I know.

SP pushes the envy down, and tends to be more "long suffering" and stoic, not being as aware that their envy is even a thing.

I also have a 2 Mother, which I find interesting.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying you are definitely doing any of the below, just that it's been my experience. :yes:

From what you've said, I think it's important to realize that no one person (or their "choosing" you) can complete or make you valuable. I know all too well that feeling you have described, of feeling invisible, or like you don't even exist-- it's the worst, but we've got to realize that we often unintentionally push people into avoiding us. I did that for years because I was so focused on my own negative feelings, constantly needing/demanding validation of my suffering. I had to hit rock bottom pretty hard (I'm praying that you don't need to do that!) before I could stand back enough to see myself clearly, and understand why people didn't want to be around me. Not because I was "being myself" but because I was so stuck in the past, my suffering and constantly pouring my feelings onto other people.

So how did I stop? Don't get me wrong, I still need to vent sometimes, I still introspect a heck of a lot more than most people do, but I have outlets for that. Maybe step one for me was realizing how blessed I was (in my case, to not be dead after lots of stupid decisions, but also) just for everyday things: food, shelter, a semi-normal family, the ability to create, see and be in nature, etc. That probably sounds dumb, and eye-roll inducing, but it's an important place to start-- thankfulness is a serious opponent to envy/discontent! Another thing that has really helped me over the years, has been volunteering but with specific motivations (as we are talking about Enneagram here :wink:): not to save other people, not to be loved for "doing", but to hear the hearts and stories of others! We 4's are total junkies for authentic stories, and I think it can be really healing to hear the struggle and stories of others-- mainly so that we can see redemption at work. So we can know that beauty rises out of brokenness, and adversity can produce positive things! Also (super important) that our suffering is not more or worse than the suffering of others, all hurt is valuable.

Quality community (which is big, especially for introverts!) can also come directly out of volunteering, I've met some of the coolest people that way, who have become a large (and positive) part of my life! Just for clarity, I'm not bar hopping or going to sporting events, I mean true friendships with people who can talk about real things with me.

Last thought: A big idea that keeps me health-focused as a 4w5 is that of true authenticity. We love that topic, right? Yes, but we get it horribly twisted in our overly-sharp minds. True authenticity sees both light and dark, positive and negative. I was deceived for years and years into believing that what is real must be painful and raw and intense-- that's only half truth. If we really seek authenticity, we must also embrace our light feelings, and positive happenings in life-- that perfect flower that crosses your path on the sidewalk, the colors of the sky when the sun is setting, that garment that just makes you feel happy, the people in your life who have always tried to love you (even if they can't fully understand). Until we can see both light and dark, we aren't being authentic at all. I still struggle with that, but am able to remind myself most of the time.

I feel for you deeply, friend. It's one of the beauties of this place, before posting/reading here I had never communicated with another 4. It can feel very good to be understood. :hug:
 

draon9

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fours are bounded by their own words and feels like they are imprisoned by society
 

Froody Blue Gem

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I am definitely not a core 4 but I have a huge as carrots 4 wing and a strong connection to the type... ^^; I internalize on a lot of the envy but it's present and the reactivity takes a toll when I'm at my worst. There is also a lot of overlap with my sp 2 fix and 4 but being fe, 2 makes more sense for that fix.

I find that in a group, when someone takes my niche or I feel threatened, that's when the envy kicks in. It takes a long time for me to get adjusted with other people and what took so long to get built up is now being broken down. It's also a question of identity or whatever scrap of that I am aware of. What made me unique is being taken away from me. I don't have much going for me so I put a lot of emphasis on this, too muchh. Also when I have a special talent but someone is just as good as or better than me. I can potentially find common ground but my kneejerk reaction is to worry if I'm special anymore. I do get on the envious side when it comes to relationships and attraction as well. It comes from a place of worry and insecurity. It does take me a lot to admit these feelings to myself or to the point when they boil over though.
 

neko 4

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I'm a SP Four and I don't feel guilty about my envy. Sometimes I wish it would go away though.
 

тень

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Im an sp 4, and I am not usually conscious of my envy. I either completely downplay an feeling with rationalization, then tell myself if you want it go work for it. The strain from trying to plan that makes me lost interest immediately. But this only applies to the material. Some other things immediately become a competition for me, but I never state it unless I am forced into reactivity. I definately embody the stoic tenacity of the dauntless 4. Its really digusting sometimes, that I measure my own suffering against others. Cognatively I find it repulsive. This makes me see myself as a bad person. This makes me double back and stop myself before it begins. I embraced quite a few values that resulted in integration to 1. That led to a much more healthy mindset.
 

Saturnal Snowqueen

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SP 4(well a strong 4 fix). Envy is a huge thing for me. I don't know if it make sense, but I see so many people with distinguished identities(like they've found their niche) and I envy them. With me, I'm always looking for identity, and heck I'm not sure what my "niche" is. Like on the associating threads on here I never know what to expect lol because I feel like I don't have much of a clear identity. I just want to find my identity; sometimes I don't know the exact identity I want, but I just need something to make me feel whole. That feeling of being different and defective is interesting to me, because I can't always find a concrete reason for feeling those things, it's just the lens I've always seen the world through. That everyone else has something I don't, and I'm just this outsider floating around in space. It makes me feel kind of empty, but at the same token if I didn't have those feelings and didn't have my flaws then I'd be without an identity.
 

Schrödinger's Name

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I have no idea what the OP was about but... I just wanted to write something about 'envy'.

I think 'envy' is a way too simplistic description for something that's pretty complex and can be interpreted in different ways... Taking into consideration that people are not envious by nature, and that something causes someone to become envious. Therefore, 'envy' wouldn't be the basic 'emotion' (or whatever you call it).
Par example; someone feels left out because their best friend meets up with someone else without inviting them. They are first of all scared to be abandoned. So the basic emotion would be fear, possibly (mixed with) sadness. Later on this turns out into envy because they can't handle the situation. Nor can they acknowledge their weakness(es).

Because let's be honest, being envious mostly means that that person has a lack self-confidence and a lack of self-insight (being too critical of oneself is also not being insightful). In the example; has trust issues and isn't able to 'survive on their own' (unconscious thought). But people fail to see through this. Even the envious person themself.

It's a mystery to me why the main characteristic of a four would be 'envy'. Everyone is able to be envious. And envy is like poison when someone isn't able to admit that they are envious, and work through it. And since those main traits are based on the 'seven deadly sins' -meaning that it is based on something religious- I won't take it seriously.
 

RadicalDoubt

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I'm a 3w4 sp/so and while I'm no 4 core by any stretch of a definition, but I cannot seem to shake the envy that comes along with having a 4 presence (or rather this envy is why I've had to admit that I do kind of fit into 4-ish categories). I really never noticed it when I was younger, I've always denied the more resentful side of myself because acknowledging that resentfulness meant that I had been effected by life, and that's something I just couldn't allow. Even now it's hard for me to admit when I am envious or distinguish it from anger or annoyance towards others. Still, I've always had a tendency to compare my suffering and reasons for suffering to others', either irritated at how I seemed to suffer more than others for no valid reason or how others seemed to suffer in ways that I could never compare to, making me feel weak for even daring to suffer myself. The comparison is repulsive and there's no reasoning behind doing such a thing,
but I do it anyways. In the end, even if there is no reality to the feeling I envy others for seemingly not having to push as hard as I have or being able to maintain their personality, talents, and identity and I don't even have much of any of that (and have abandoned any I may have had ever). Every one has their struggles in life, so I often rationalize my envy until I can pretend it's not there, construct and rebuild myself over and over again because I'm not allowed to wallow. But I suppose satisfaction isn't easy to come by, eh?
 

Kanra Jest

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Envy?

. .

I think?

Like I feel unique and different and I have some pretty good reasons. And a part of me likes that but a part of me wishes I could be a part of something greater than myself and have some purpose and not pointlessly drift around but idk how not to. Being a very rare type doesn't help. So I envy the ease that others have to just integrate themselves and be acknowledged. Cuz ultimately acknowledgement is what I seek. But I also keep feeling rejected a lot by people and I don't know what the fuck I do wrong. Get bitter and use it as fuel to retreat inside myself. And even now typing this I highly doubt I'll receive much if any acknowledgement or anyone would care which seems to bother me. Aside from that. I value success and achievements a lot, so if someone is more successful am I envious? Sorta. I have no desire to be them or be a lot like them as I relish my identity(and I want to carve my own UNIQUE style rather than the same shit everyone else does), but again it will remind me of my need to be acknowledged and my difficulty to successfully be a part of something and create something for myself as I see in my head, in order to validate my identity as worthy.

Identity is everything to me, but at the same time I honestly don't actually know who I am if I actually look within. Even morals are hazy and can change. On one end I can be very honorable and empathic, and yet "immoral" and unknowingly manipulative cuz I have no solid foundation. Emotional and then emotionless. Sensitive yet distant. Hot and Cold. "SX Dom as hell someone once said". And I do mimic others to a degree, in order to compare to myself and see how it fits 'me' to take on those traits naturally. So 'me' isn't entirely consistent as I am a being who simply adapts and learns. But I'm genuine about that cuz I'm like an A.I who's still learning. Plus I see 'Me' commonly to be a part of 'We'. Ideally a symbol. But it matters a whole lot to know my 'Me'/'We', my Symbol, what I stand for, to validate, and I'd say I envy those who have a strong sense of inner peace and identity and feel validated in themselves cuz I don't understand how the heck they have that. It's so bizzare.

Probably my 4 and 9 influences at work. Or 5 if I have that but idk. But I can see a strong 4 cuz it probably almost sounds stereotypical.
 

Pessimistic Hippie

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As an sx 4 (I know this is all my personal experience,) my 'envy' is actually a strong motivator behind me taking care of myself better. Partly because I think I have a solid grasp of what is attainable for me and what isn't. With that said I'm not sure it's ever something I'd really want to lose; it's about what I do with it, and adjusting my standards to me & my personal lifestyle.

As an example; if someone has 6 pack abs, I can appreciate their dedication while knowing I'm never gonna try to go for that lol. But if I see someone not as toned who I also think looks good and it seems more attainable for me, I'll use my envy to try to shoot for that myself.
 

yubih

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Sx 4 here, I struggle with envy but now as much as I used to in the past. I used to be much worse - I envied other people for literally anything, I thought everyone was better off than me from at least one point of view. I just felt wrong and ashamed of myself
Now I'm not ashamed of myself and therefore not that envious anymore, even if I do struggle with envy sometimes; nowdays it's usually related to academics (I'm struggling a lot recently and feel envious of people who have managed to get going in uni despite this shitty situation) or personal relationships (I got out of a 4-year-long relationship in January and feel like I'm struggling in finding deep connections again, which as a sexual subtype is vital to me)
In my case I would say that envy makes me competitive: I feel the need to do more, do better or at least compensate in some way for what I lack
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I do think envy is inconsistent with originality, so I always approach this E4 envy business with a little head-tilt. For most things I'm particularly not envious because most regular stuff people work to achieve is not that important to me, but I still appreciate it. Im happy for people to go on vacation to Europe, buy a big house or car, graduate, etc.

I only have one area of envy and that is physical appearance, but I have deficits in that area because I've mostly had relationships with men who shot me down a lot, so I feel that has to be something wrong with my face and body, so I view the world through that lens. If I looked like *that* then I wouldn't be rejected for intimacy. It permeates my brain from the conscious through the subconscious, so it's difficult to get rid of it. Also, acceptance of any sort through appearance is by nature less about originality because you have to have at least two people viewing it through the same lens.

Mostly I want to be different from other people. I do it quietly, so I'm extremely introverted about it, but there is no mistaking that I do not want to fall into the norm at all. I don't want to clamor for the same prizes.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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The more accurate the competition, the more uniform the parameters need to be. One best example of a competitive structure is the long jump. You can definitively declare the winner because the parameters are identical for everyone. You can't actually have a definitive winner for a poetry contest. Yes, they have these and declare winners, but the more original an action or behavior, the less you can compare it to anything else. Why don't people about this in the context of E4. It's a real problem to try to make envy which requires competition be fundamental to an instinct driven by originality. It doesn't not make complete coherent sense. It is part of all the literature on it, so I get why people talk about it. It is supposed to be part of it.

Edit: The moment you envy someone, the moment you want to be them, is the same moment you give up on your own originality.
 

Luminous

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I do think envy is inconsistent with originality, so I always approach this E4 envy business with a little head-tilt. For most things I'm particularly not envious because most regular stuff people work to achieve is not that important to me, but I still appreciate it. Im happy for people to go on vacation to Europe, buy a big house or car, graduate, etc.

I only have one area of envy and that is physical appearance, but I have deficits in that area because I've mostly had relationships with men who shot me down a lot, so I feel that has to be something wrong with my face and body, so I view the world through that lens. If I looked like *that* then I wouldn't be rejected for intimacy. It permeates my brain from the conscious through the subconscious, so it's difficult to get rid of it. Also, acceptance of any sort through appearance is by nature less about originality because you have to have at least two people viewing it through the same lens.

Mostly I want to be different from other people. I do it quietly, so I'm extremely introverted about it, but there is no mistaking that I do not want to fall into the norm at all. I don't want to clamor for the same prizes.

I think you hit the nail on the head in indirectly pointing out that the main area of envy is going to be in a 4's dominant instinctual area. I don't think the envy they talk about has to be directed toward a specific person, but can also be a dissatisfaction and huge frustration in their instinctual dominant area, where the envy is longing for the satisfaction that others apparently have in that area, or that is theoretically possible in that area.

When a Type 4 has a biased emotional dynamic, they experience an Emotional Reactivity (or Passion) called Envy. In Envy, the Four expends emotional energy on desiring what others have which they do not. They become depressed over what they wish for but either do not deserve or deserve but cannot have. Their feelings of frustration and jealousy become augmented.

When a Type 4 restores their emotional dynamic, they experience a Higher Emotional Capacity (or Virtue) called Equanimity. In Equanimity, the Four is able to live in harmony with the present by feeling satisfied and fulfilled with having just enough. The Four feels balance, as nothing of substance is missing. As a result, no emotion is dominant and the Four can experience equilibrium with the external circumstance.
What's Obvious; what's not | Type 4 - The Enneagram in Business

Lower emotional habit: Envy or melancholy arising from the experience of disappointment or deficiency
Type 4 - Romantic — THE ENNEAGRAM AT WORK

The SX4: the passion of envy in the SX zones. Envy can be a bit complex, so I also use the term hypersensitivity for 4s in relation to instinct. "I am deeply affected by attraction and the lack thereof."
Hudson's 27 Type Profiles

The emotional drive of type 4 is called envy and refers to the sense that what is valued and needed is outside of yourself and unavailable. Envy can feel like a longing or an intense craving for whatever will make you feel happy or whole – a different circumstance, job or relationship. In Enneagram language, envy is the Passion or Vice of type 4.

What is missing is equanimity, which means being balanced and allowing yourself to be engaged with your emotions without being swept away or overwhelmed by them and recognizing that what is here in the present moment is sufficient. In Enneagram language, equanimity is the virtue of type 4.
Enneagram Type 4 — The Enneagram Group

I think it's another case of where the word makes sense in a certain context with a deeper meaning than is generally superficially meant by it, like pride for 2s and sloth for 9s, where the generalized meaning isn't going to make most people of the type immediately say Yes! That's me! I think it's good that Hudson, for example, is offering alternative words that make the meaning more clear without people having to read vast tomes of information. Most 2s aren't going to agree their problem regarding their dominant instinct is pride, nor are most 9s going to agree it's sloth. The 2's pride shows up in that they approach it as if they don't have needs, in putting others' needs before their own, it's a pride of claiming they are needless, which is, of course, not true. And with 9s, there's focus on the dom area, but there's a tendency to settle for what there is.

I wish some of this was written much more clearly to start with because it has such power in helping people grow toward being happier, healthier, and more whole.
 

Saturnal Snowqueen

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It kinda breaks me when I put so much effort into something, and people don't notice it while other people garner attention for the simplest of things. I seem to just naturally fall into the background, no matter what I do differently, or if everyone else was new and just starting out, they'd start to fit in eventually and I won't. Or, eventually I start to follow what other people are doing so I can actually feel like people will pay attention to be but it still doesn't work. This applies to social media more than anything else. It's a huge case of, "What am I doing wrong???". My jealousy towards peoples fashions and art I'm getting over, I've noticed. Do I wish I could pull off those styles, sure, but I have my own style and I feel like it's often more unique than other people's, even if I don't have the looks to compliment it. For art and stuff, I often wish my art was as good as other people's, but again I've really solidified what my art style is, and even the art I see as "technically" better than mine I find it unoriginal and stiff. Or, I just see us all having good art when we're not competing. I also get jealous of other people who seem to have better lives than me, like they're actually living they're meant to have, a fulfilling one, and I'm not. My ideal fairy tale life seems so far away from me, and I hate it. I had this destiny in my head, but life's passed me by and I'm just sitting here, existing. It doesn't feel...congruent with me at all. It's hard to put in words, but other people, even if I don't necessarily think they're better than me or are much special or interesting, feel like a better version of themselves than I am.
 
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