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ENTP or ESTP?

INTJMom

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I was just reading in the ENTP thread and now I'm questioning whether my father really is an ENTP or whether he is an ESTP.
Somebody said ENTPs don't have any faults - that's what triggered it.

The reason I thought he was not an S is because he has a horrible memory.

He loves to play baseball and fish.
He hasn't had a "normal" job in 40 years.
He drinks, gambles and womanizes.

Would an ENTP do all these things?
 
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Athenian200

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I was just reading in the ENTP thread and now I'm questioning whether my father really is an ENTP or whether he is an ESTP.
Somebody said ENTPs don't have any faults - that's what triggered it.

The reason I thought he was not an S is because he has a horrible memory.

He loves to play baseball and fish.
He hasn't had a "normal" job in 40 years.
He drinks, gambles and womanizes.

Would an ENTP do all these things?

Ah... ESTP. I'm almost positive. ENTP's are more theoretical and such... Se is different from Si, and many ideas about S are more Si than Se.

Although he sounds like an unhealthy ESTP. The healthier ones usually find a better outlet for their Se abilities. Some even become managers on certain kinds of projects that SJ's would have trouble with.
 

Randomnity

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He loves to play baseball and fish.
He hasn't had a "normal" job in 40 years.
He drinks, gambles and womanizes.

Would an ENTP do all these things?
I know an ENTP (strong N) who does all of this, though he has a "normal" job.
 

Vicki

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ESTPs seem to have a reputation for being like that don't they??
 

INTJMom

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Hmm. I'm going to have to pay closer attention.
What differences am I looking for exactly?
 

anii

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The main difference I'd say - and I'm guessing - is the ESTPs I've known are much more concerned about their own appearance than ENTPs. ENTPs are almost like mad professors with the wild hair and even wilder eyes - think Dr. Emmet Brown - and like to play devils advocate about ideas. They're too busy dreaming up big ideas and being renaissance people to care about whether their hair is messed up or their shirt is sloppy.

ESTPs are more pragmatic, and their 'devils advocacy' is in the form of manipulating people and things to their ends - even if that end is mere entertainment. It's almost like they get a sick thrill from pitting people against each other - maybe it plays to their gamesmanship. All of the ESTPs I've known took great pride in their appearance.
 

INTJMom

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The main difference I'd say - and I'm guessing - is the ESTPs I've known are much more concerned about their own appearance than ENTPs. ENTPs are almost like mad professors with the wild hair and even wilder eyes - think Dr. Emmet Brown - and like to play devils advocate about ideas. They're too busy dreaming up big ideas and being renaissance people to care about whether their hair is messed up or their shirt is sloppy.

ESTPs are more pragmatic, and their 'devils advocacy' is in the form of manipulating people and things to their ends - even if that end is mere enjoyment. It's almost like they get a sick thrill from pitting people against each other - maybe it plays to their gamesmanship. All of the ESTPs I've known took great pride in their appearance.
Oh REAlly!
My father is 71 and still gets back in shape every spring, firming up his muscles, losing his gut.

Would he brag about being the BEST fisherman, and the BEST baseball pitcher?
(Or is that just testosterone?)
 
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anii

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Well, like I said, I'm guessing. That was the clearest distinction I could find.
 

INTJMom

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Well, like I said, I'm guessing. That was the clearest distinction I could find.
Thank you for your help. :hi:
It looks like I've been wrong about him. He's probably an ESTP.
I'm going to check into it further.
 

Totenkindly

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I was just reading in the ENTP thread and now I'm questioning whether my father really is an ENTP or whether he is an ESTP.
Somebody said ENTPs don't have any faults - that's what triggered it.

The reason I thought he was not an S is because he has a horrible memory.

He loves to play baseball and fish.
He hasn't had a "normal" job in 40 years.
He drinks, gambles and womanizes.

Would an ENTP do all these things?

The list you've described applies easily to at least male ESTPs. ENTPs actually are capable of all the things, but they tend to branch out into MANY areas. They also usually like to read and tinker voraciously with things. ESTPs will generally stay with "practical" pursuits, one that have some obvious advantage or gain; ENTPs are much more prone to flitting about and getting caught up in esoteric things, they will be even more all over the map in regards to their interests.

(ENTP Oberon, another poster here, for example, would be a Jeopardy trivia king. He knows anything from certain periods of history and cultural references to how to clean a gun and strip down a lawn engine mower, and he's written even drafts of screenplays.)

I also had thought my father to be an ENTP when I was younger, but over the last number of years I really reconsidered it (because his N was weak if it existed at all), and I think he is really an ESTP with a bit of a sensitive side that is reflected in his love for music and plants. (He still could be an ENTP, I suppose, but his N was very much beaten out of him by his father and life in general, if he is.)

AS far as drinking, womanizing, and gambling being "unhealthy" -- well, I guess it usually can be if taken to an extreme. It is simply that ESTPs are "rogues" by nature, so these pursuits are appealing because they're exciting and because they fly against social convention.
 

ygolo

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Please note, INTJMom, I have nothing personal against you. I just don't think these habbits can be used to seperate S from N.

The reason I thought he was not an S is because he has a horrible memory.

Excelent memories seem to belong to SJs. I think a lot of drinking can make any type forgetful

He loves to play baseball and fish.

Isn't this just part of U.S. born male experience of that generation?

He hasn't had a "normal" job in 40 years.

What's a normal job?

He drinks, gambles and womanizes.

So does 90% of the male population to some extent (esp. when single). If he was doing it while married, well, I am not sure what to make of that. I would then type him as a**hole (sorry).

Would an ENTP do all these things?

Probably, yes. But so would ESTPs.
 

Totenkindly

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Excelent memories seem to belong to SJs. I think a lot of drinking can make any type forgetful.

I think it is called "brain damage."
(*groan*)

So does 90% of the male population to some extent (esp. when single). If he was doing it while married, well, I am not sure what to make of that. I would then type him as a**hole (sorry).

ESTPs seems to have a "harder" lifestyle than most men, and these things are more a temptation to them in order to experience life fully, take risks, and prove their virility.

Usually Captain Kirk is classed as an ESTP (or potentially an ENTP, although I still think he's more a flamboyant S type.)
 

hotmale

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I was just reading in the ENTP thread and now I'm questioning whether my father really is an ENTP or whether he is an ESTP.
Somebody said ENTPs don't have any faults - that's what triggered it.

The reason I thought he was not an S is because he has a horrible memory.

He loves to play baseball and fish.
He hasn't had a "normal" job in 40 years.
He drinks, gambles and womanizes.

Would an ENTP do all these things?

Sounds ENFJ to me.
 

substitute

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The reason I thought he was not an S is because he has a horrible memory.

Um... my memory is close to photographic. Seriously. But only for things that I'm actually paying attention to. If I want to memorize something, I've only gotta look at it for a few minutes and that's it, it's written on the hard drive indelibly. But if someone asks me to remember some detail of something that happened earlier, something I either wasn't engaged in directly or I just wasn't paying attention to that particular detail, I'll seem like a total sieve head.

He loves to play baseball and fish.

Hm... can't see myself doing either of those.

He hasn't had a "normal" job in 40 years.

I haven't had a normal job since 6 months after leaving school. I've been self-employed.

He drinks, gambles and womanizes.

Drink - check, but mainly just at parties and special occasions if we're talking 'get drunk' as opposed to 'have a glass of wine with your dinner', and during especially hard times of my life I have hit the bottle routinely, but again, not getting blotto all the time, just keeping myself ever so slightly drunk, so as to take the edge off the emotions the harsh realities cause in me, in order for me to deal with them! And then I've come off it as soon as things have calmed down. IOW, I've used alcohol kinda like some people use anti-depressants... just something to calm your nerves during hard times, until you get through it and don't need them any more.

Gamble - check. But not habitually - like the alcohol, just a bit of fun on occasion.

Womanize - hmm... no, not really. Sometimes teasing and flirting, but always stop short of getting physical. I've never been able to abide the idea of using other people as a means for one's own sensual gratification, and have too much respect for a person's humanity to use them that way. But I know another ENTP who does... but usually only during hard times, as a distraction. Ordinarily he's too involved in tinkering with inanimate objects and situations, to have the time to invest in things like that.

I know it might sound weird, but sometimes the only way to tell ENTP and ESTP apart is by how they bully. I mean we're all guilty of it from time to time, that person we just don't like and want them to know it and make life hard for them... I've observed that ESTP's will tend to bully by making mean comments, name calling and sometimes physical stuff like 'accidentally' banging into people when they walk past. But ENTP's tend to do it quite differently - I know if I want to annoy someone or pick on them and make them feel stupid, I tend to just dismiss everything they say and pick holes in it, make their ideas look stupid and not let them speak - y'know, interrupt them and dismiss everything they say, not take it on board and make them feel ignored.

How does he treat people he doesn't like? ESTP makes them feel weak, wimpish, cowardly, while ENTP is more likely to make them feel and look stupid, oafish and ornery.
 

xNFJiminy

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I was just reading in the ENTP thread and now I'm questioning whether my father really is an ENTP or whether he is an ESTP.
Somebody said ENTPs don't have any faults - that's what triggered it.

Oh gosh, you shouldn't take everything I say so seriously! I exaggerate terribly you know. :blush:
 

"?"

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In conclusion, the unhealthiness state cannot dictate what type this person is. At a low scale, he could be a really unhealthy INJ. With the very vague description given, it could be any type. Did you not grow up with this person? If so, what is he like when not playing a role? The womanizig and drinking could be tell-tale signs of an introverted type being overwhelmed by life's circumstances.
 

FDG

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ESTPs are far more negative than ENTPs. ENTPs are usually rather optimistic people.
 

Blackwater

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this shouldnt be too hard, after all you must know him well

well there are many variables, after all a psychological type is not a complete personality.

look for these:

1
his willingness (as oposed to ability) to follow you into theory-land

and related: is he naturally dismissive or appreciative of seemingly useless academic insights?

2
is he chiefly energized by the prospect of combining insights or is he energized by direct sensory thrills (estps mainly experience the world through the senses)

3
does he revere facts about the things he love (like, whomever won the baseball championships this-and-that year) or is he naturally expansive, wanting to (again) combine the history and practices of baseball with anything and everything related (like, comparing baseball to others sports, speculizing about the role of sports in society etc.)
 

INTJMom

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...I know it might sound weird, but sometimes the only way to tell ENTP and ESTP apart is by how they bully. I mean we're all guilty of it from time to time, that person we just don't like and want them to know it and make life hard for them... I've observed that ESTP's will tend to bully by making mean comments, name calling and sometimes physical stuff like 'accidentally' banging into people when they walk past. But ENTP's tend to do it quite differently - I know if I want to annoy someone or pick on them and make them feel stupid, I tend to just dismiss everything they say and pick holes in it, make their ideas look stupid and not let them speak - y'know, interrupt them and dismiss everything they say, not take it on board and make them feel ignored.

How does he treat people he doesn't like? ESTP makes them feel weak, wimpish, cowardly, while ENTP is more likely to make them feel and look stupid, oafish and ornery.
He is a physical person. He's not likely to win a word battle with anyone. He prides himself on his physique. Also, this morning I remember despising him when I was a kid for his shallowness (non-N-ness). He's very competitive. He enjoys a good competition. When he was in his 20's he would hustle people out of their money by some sort of physical bet.

As far as bullying, I can't say I've seen that. One thing he does do is, if he likes you, in order to tease you, he'll walk up to you, and with a shaking fist, he'll say, "How about a punch in the nose?" (Don't know if that helps.)

One of his main qualities is that he has always been "yellow" when to comes to confronting people. They used to own a business and my father would never fire anyone. He would make my mother do the confronting.

I'm almost positive now he's an SP. And there's no doubt that he's an E. But this morning I have been questioning whether I was right about his T.

The reason I think he's a T is because he's very judgmental, closed-minded and critical. He's not diplomatic or careful with his words. He's very blunt and doesn't seem to be aware he's hurting people's feelings. But it's hard to tell for sure because he does have a "people-pleaser" side to him.

I'm really thankful to everyone for helping me out with this. :hi:

Oh gosh, you shouldn't take everything I say so seriously! I exaggerate terribly you know. :blush:
I know sweetie! ALL people have faults. It's just that I have always seen my father as about 75% faults, and 25% good - so that's what triggered the idea that I might be wrong - and it turns out I WAS wrong.

In conclusion, the unhealthiness state cannot dictate what type this person is. At a low scale, he could be a really unhealthy INJ. With the very vague description given, it could be any type. Did you not grow up with this person? If so, what is he like when not playing a role? The womanizing and drinking could be tell-tale signs of an introverted type being overwhelmed by life's circumstances.
I agree with you. It's hard to tell from just a few choice statements. Yes I did grow up with him, but he was never home. He was always at the bar - fraternizing.

this shouldnt be too hard, after all you must know him well
well there are many variables, after all a psychological type is not a complete personality.
look for these:

1
his willingness (as opposed to ability) to follow you into theory-land
and related: is he naturally dismissive or appreciative of seemingly useless academic insights?
Hmm... I'll have to think about this. He never talks about theory. It's more concrete facts.

2
is he chiefly energized by the prospect of combining insights or is he energized by direct sensory thrills (estps mainly experience the world through the senses)
Sensory thrills

3
does he revere facts about the things he love (like, whomever won the baseball championships this-and-that year) or is he naturally expansive, wanting to (again) combine the history and practices of baseball with anything and everything related (like, comparing baseball to others sports, speculating about the role of sports in society etc.)
He's an avid Red Sox fan. He talks about the stats of the players. He talks about the players' performances - critiquing them.
He studies the stats of horses so he can bet on races.

Thanks for your help.

I am pretty well convinced he is S - but I'm still not sure about the T or F.

...They also usually like to read and tinker voraciously with things. ESTPs will generally stay with "practical" pursuits, one that have some obvious advantage or gain; ENTPs are much more prone to flitting about and getting caught up in esoteric things, they will be even more all over the map in regards to their interests....
Thanks Jennifer, this helps.

...Excellent memories seem to belong to SJs. I think a lot of drinking can make any type forgetful
You're right.

Isn't this just part of U.S. born male experience of that generation?
I should have said he LIVES to fish.

What's a normal job?
One that doesn't have to do with hustling people out of their money. Something that requires WORK.

So does 90% of the male population to some extent (esp. when single)....
I wasn't sure if anyone would find it helpful information.
 
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Athenian200

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So does 90% of the male population to some extent (esp. when single)

I would have guessed 60-70%... but 90% are debauchers?!? I'm kind of a pessimist, and even I wouldn't have thought that. I guess truth is worse than my imagination (and that's saying a lot since I'm Ni dominant). People really are bereft of any sort of decency these days. I'm disgusted. :1377:
 
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