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ENFJ and ENTJ similarity

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
3,544
MBTI Type
ENTJ
What kinds of similarity can you find of these two types?

How can you explain their sameness and difference?
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Guardian of Ga'Hoole
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
16,508
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I have a way of getting on their bad side, that's for sure.

I suppose part of it is that I can be very stubborn about some things and no amount of social pressure or saber-rattling is going to dissuade me from that. I'm not dissuaded by someone throwing a temper tantrum or organizing a mob against me.

Putting it simply, I'm not someone who can be moved about to their liking. The most I'll do is quietly withdrawal, and that's usually what I do if I don't have the energy for dealing with the rest of their BS.
 

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
3,544
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Well, I understand where you're coming from, but if you examine the sources of social pressure, you'll most certainly find it's not coming from me, eh?

So is it from the ENFJ?
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Guardian of Ga'Hoole
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
16,508
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Well, I understand where you're coming from, but if you examine the sources of social pressure, you'll most certainly find it's not coming from me, eh?

So is it from the ENFJ?

I didn't even realize you were typing as an ENTJ these days.

But I have clashed with other ENTJs around these parts. They don't do the social pressure stuff, it's more like tantrum-throwing. They may work behind the scenes but don't seem to directly enlist crowds of supporters unless they're friends with someone who is good at that.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Guardian of Ga'Hoole
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
16,508
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I think it has something to do with weak introverted judgement and not understanding that someone can be quite and more subdued and yet unyielding in their own way. Perhaps that is part of their anger..... they feel they should be able to put this beta male in their place so they can't understand why the usual tricks aren't working.
 

euphoricfilth

New member
Joined
Jun 26, 2021
Messages
2
MBTI Type
ENFJ
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Both: restless, the most naturally ambitious types, prone to grandiosity and overestimating themselves, highly purposeful and intentional in all they do, stressed by having a lack of external control but confident when pulling the world towards their vision, energetic and typically working in bursts of intense activity, always moving at a fast pace and struggling to slow down, pushy if not downright domineering (ENTJ much more consistently), naturally optimistic about their ability to achieve big things and create a better future, a strong sense of potential for their lives, and often for others, and generally a lot of issues with impatience, workaholism, inflexibility with plans and visions, and impossible self-standards.

ENFJ and ENTJ are both rational extroverts, which means we both naturally align ourselves with standards that we perceive to create good outcomes. It is extremely difficult for either of these types to not do what they view as necessary to achieve a goal, no matter how much self-sacrifice it requires. This creates a very high-pressure person who is always straining to reach a bar we are continuously raising, to continue generating better and better outcomes. As extroverted judgers utilizing powerful intuition, our lives only make sense to us when every facet is arranged towards manifesting a vision.

We both see immense potential in the world around us, and we are furthermore driven to wrest control of the world to animate this potential and create something of lasting value. Due to being so aware of the outcomes of decisions, we struggle to waste time on anything which doesn't directly contribute to the overarching path we sense ourselves traveling. We easily discern what is trivial from what is essential, but this makes it quite difficult to enjoy the smaller things in life. Compared to our ExxP cousins, ENFP and ENTP, we grow bored of exploration and enjoyment for its own sake at some point and start craving a sense of movement towards some higher principle, or perhaps the next level of the "game."

In pursuit of our ambitions, ENFJs and ENTJs both exercise a level of natural discipline and self control. This is well recognized as an aspect of being ENTJ, but it's almost always overlooked as an aspect of being ENFJ. I suggest thinking of ENFJs as ENTJs oriented towards social achievement instead of technological, academic, or economic achievement. You see the same level of dogged ambition and a need for control in both, but one achieves social goals through social skills, while the other achieves material goals through technical skills. Of course, the experience of being these types is actually extremely different inside, but we'll get to that later.

One sketchy outcome of this discipline orientation is our shared tendency to self-sacrifice for our principles and goals to a more extreme extent than almost any other type is willing. This often garners ENFJs and ENTJs a lot of admiration, as we're looked to as impressive figures who dream big, and then do it, while exercising seemingly effortless self-control on a level other types can struggle to develop. The problem is, we tend to experience the opposite issue to being too permissive with ourselves. ENFJs and ENTJs can drive ourselves into the ground, neglecting the need for rest and relaxation and forcibly conforming our bodies, minds, and hearts to an agenda that overrides our own well-being. We can seem "possessed" in unhealth, fanatically pushing towards a goal regardless of the destruction caused to ourselves and our environment. Both types can be driven mad by an internal program constantly putting pressure on us: "you can go further than this," "you don't quit until the job's done," "you can't waste your potential by slacking off."

In both cases, the healing of our severe self-standards involves getting in touch with our introverted judging function to reflect on what is truly important in life, and what is just busywork. Developing a connection to our deep inner knowing and personal truths introduces a balancing subjective element to our conscious mind, letting us make decisions that oppose the demands of our dominant function sometimes. This is important to be a well-rounded and healthy person who can set limits on how far we're willing to push before we prioritize our inner needs.

ENTJs express this shared restless ambition through mastering the material and intellectual worlds. Their Te dominant brains naturally focus on understanding tools and technologies for the sake of accomplishing goals. "Leverage" is a good word to describe what ENTJs seek: they want to control the outer world through first knowing how it works, and then pulling its levers to make it work for them. An impersonal view of the world makes the most sense to ENTJs, who naturally register everything they perceive as "facts," inherently judging all information for how useful it may be, or how relevant it is to their current task. They naturally sort and categorize the world to make sense of it, frequently discerning which objects are of greater utility than other objects, and ranking objects by supposedly objective qualities.

The social style of ENTJs can be pretty rough. I find they can come off as very jovial, upbeat, and engaging up front, but eventually the "normal person" mask wears off and they reveal an underlying coldness. ENTJs naturally render themselves subjects of objective analysis, treating themselves more like machines to maintain and improve than living, breathing organisms. This attitude can be unnerving in social situations, as an ENTJ's subtle dehumanization of themselves becomes apparent, or it's projected onto other people as well. The impulse to view other human beings as "levers" to pull to achieve results can be seductive to the type which is constantly seeking a foothold to new heights. Integrating Fi is crucial for ENTJs to develop sympathy and warmth towards themselves and other people, and to create an inner emotional space that can challenge the oppressive utilitarianism of Te.

ENFJs are a deeply social type that wants to achieve something in the collective, or for the collective. This may be a relatively small community, but it generally goes beyond, as ENFJs are not ones to think small. Where ENTJs gain "leverage" through mastering impersonal subjects, ENFJs gain "influence" through mastering interpersonal subjects. This type is highly attuned to the exchanges which happen between people, and the resonant impact of actions and events on the interiors of living beings. Where ENTJs approach life with a sober mind, ENFJs approach life with a boldly bared heart, displaying an unsurpassed emotional vividness. Expression and performance are how this type wins over crowds and opens minds to new ideas. What motivates an ENFJ is the promise of having a meaningful impact on the social body, generating lasting change, and experiencing a deep togetherness with other people.

Assurdedly, ENFJs have a much greater social intuition that grants them a naturally smooth and confident style of interaction. This type can present in so many different ways moment to moment, in contrast to the stiff and inflexible demeanor of ENTJs. It is natural and often genuinely authentic for an ENFJ to consciously generate emotions useful to a situation, while acting out an appropriate persona. The inner toll of being so mercurial and socially fluid is a pervasive and underlying experience of doubt which haunts ENFJs. Their concept of self changes drastically with their social surroundings and mood, which generates a great deal of confusion over who they truly are and what they're authentically feeling. It's hard for Fe dominants to not get lost in this swirling vortex of emotional energy, and as an intuitive type, the contradictions and dilemmas an ENFJ gets hung up on can be exceedingly abstract. This is a type which is often plagued by obscure maladies and esoteric anxieties which are near impossible to articulate the significance of to others.

The remedy to tyrannical dominant Fe, which demands absolute knowledge of and adherence to what is ethical or socially useful, is developing inferior Ti. Integrating detached and impersonal thought provides space for ENFJs to step back from their chaotic flurry of emotions, both theirs and others, to suss out consistent moral principles from all their ethical feelings and value judgments. This creates stability in the fundamentally unstable minds of ENFJs, and helps them draw limits for sacrifice, recognizing when it's unfair and illogical to expect too much from themselves or others.

Post script: this post itself is maybe a decent example of how ENxJs live life. I don't know how to not tryhard at everything I do, because putting in Big Effort is literally so natural for me that it's easier to just let myself go overboard than to stop before I've exhausted something entirely. That, and we both just love to hear ourselves talk. Extroverted judgers communicate a lot of information to other people, as sharing useful and meaningful facts and experiences is how we interact. It's common to see both of these types taking on the role of an educator, coach, guide, or leader in a community. We have a lot to say and an opinion on everything, including what other people ought to do with their lives. This is definitely one of the more irritating ExxJ traits lmfao.
 

ceecee

Dunkin Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
14,824
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
8w9
Both high energy and real doers. Always doing stuff! Insanity.

That's why they need a low energy doing very little person like...

tenor.gif
 

typologyenthusiast

New member
Joined
Aug 7, 2019
Messages
727
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
-
I found ENFJ and ENTJ are similar in having a lot of networking. But they get their circle of network by different way. ENFJ with Fe dominant tend to be friendly with stranger. ENTJ with a lot of knowledge, of history, news, tends to be "Mr. know it all" that people can discuss almost any topic with them. Both of them tend to rely on their network of friends, relatives, relationship with others in dealing with problem in life. Both can have sports as a hobby. Both are chatty. Both of them tend to be updated on news. Both of them have an innate leadership aptitude, hence can emerge to become a leader in their community.
 
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