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Danganronpa V3 Socionics & Enneagram Types?

Apeironstella

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Search history brings up first game's cast on anime types thread (as it did have an anime adaptation, fair) but since I doubt they could ever adapt V3 into an anime, here goes the thread. Fair warning- possible major spoilers for entire game ahead.

I admitedly haven't thought about some of the characters as much as others, so I'll have to come back for them but as far as what I have on mind for some typings and how I think their types interact with each other-

Kaede seems to best fit with an ESE- her Fe base really shines when it comes to how she could rally the group together for the most part with conviction in her feelings, her demonstrative Se shows up in places like how she and Shuichi managed to convince Miu to modify the cameras for them (as it was a rather unconventional way of pressuring someone, Se channeled through Fe+Si), and her PoLR pokes its head with how she is quick to take action and state things at times without thinking about future consequences of her actions at times.

She also shows Ti suggestive behaviour when the group fell apart and she was blaming herself for things falling apart when she got a tunnel view (ha) at the Despair Tunnel+fallout following that, with she herself saying she wouldn't know what to do if Shuichi haven't approached to her with his findings, and while she is not best at making logical arguments that are able to convince others, she does value it when others can and is quick to say that does make sense to her.

I think 2w3 so/sx would be best fit for her, as she does mention in the Salmon Mode FTEs with Shuichi that she wants to know everything about their friend group, and tends to have 8 like anger peeking through when her attempts to help at others are rejected, even when she can be at times too overbearing and cross boundaries others don't enjoy having crossed as she tends to have no sense of personal space in that sense. Most likely 269 or 279, I can see argument for either as she's quick to try to build alliances and also likes to seek others' approval when she puts an idea out, but she also clearly has a tendency to gloss over harsher side of things and encourages 7 like behaviour/can be too quick to jump into risks and likes to talk about future fun things to try to lighten up the mood and try to not let herself and others get too gloomy and potentially give up escape. Most likely 279 after all.

Which is where the ball passes to Shuichi, who as far as I can tell is an LII 5w6 592 sp/so- His strongest suit is his ability to piece things together in a logical narrative, and yet he also tends to be slightly removed from reality, with how he even pieces together the cases being by eliminating all the possibilities rather than looking at concrete details that narrows options down from start (Ie. what Maki criticizes him for in trial 2, and in general as a Te valuer herself) and tends to have regular flips of thought from different sides, which fits with Gulenko's Holographic-Panoramic Thinking Style. He is quick to respond well to any positive expression of Fe by lightening up fairly quickly, beyond when fear of the situation is too high for it anyway, and despite him being initially wary and keeping distance, Kaede was able to get him open up really quick about his insecurities just by giving a sympathetic ear after the initial trust was established.

For the tritype, he tends to enjoy calmer atmosphere and is more likely to go passive aggressive than actually show his anger openly, and he finds a place in society by helping others with his talent, even if given his tritype and sp 5 lead he is not quick to jump into trying to help others actively like Kaede, but he also will go absurd lengths to help someone if he can if they ever ask for his assistance, especially in a field he's supposedly good at (Ie. the pet crocodile story he tells Kaede during his chapter 1 FTE)

Kaito is an interesting case, in the sense that he's clearly a SEE with how quick he can be to rise to baits and charge without thinking even worse than Kaede, and his strongest suit is assessing closeness to others and in ethical/emotional realm while his PoLR Ti really shows as also in comparison to Kaede actually actively participating in class debates, while Kaito rarely if ever does and more tends to do the emotional weight lifting of the group after Kaede passes away, with especially tending to avoid having to ever use Ti to make a reasonable argument for why he thinks they should do something- in fact, Shuichi and Kaito being conflict types is very visible when they first meet, with both openly criticizing each other for how they work/how both see each other as all talk but no bite.

Which bleeds into how his initial attempt to cheer him up after Kaede's death is very Se-Fi, initially blowing up at him for Shuichi's tendency to implode when it comes to negative feelings than showing the Se he thinks was warranted towards Monokuma, yet also when his head calms down, he encourages him to seek what reminds him of Kaede to try to find some peace- aka to engage his Fi on the matter, reminiscing a personal bond (Fi+Ni valuing), and after that he tends to tone down how he directs Se at him by approaching him more from a Fe+Si metabolized through Se+Fi ego way (Ie. getting him go out of his head by getting him physically move his body, workout so that he doesn't have the energy to go down mental rabbitholes that wouldn't be good for him, as he is prone to when left to his own devices), and also how Shuichi becomes much more receptive after he understands that's where he's coming from when he starts said emotional weighlifting for the group too.

His main type is like 7w8 sx/so, as he would describe himself "a man who chases after his passions", with an eye for where in social ladder he is/what is good for the group, but that can end up sidelined for who he feels intensely connected to/what he is passionate about (sx) at times. He also has little to no self preservation instinct (which gets two sp-firsts, Maki and Shuichi, ending up chiding him to try to reign him in from going too far for his own safety sometimes). 783 or 782 both possible, as he tends to both gain love by helping others out and by trying to project an image of success, though I'd argue it's a bit more the latter, if only because he tends to be very open about how much he's willing to cheat at times to get ahead (Ie. his first meeting with Kaede being him literally admitting to fraud), but I can still see 783 for him given how driven he can be for his passions and how much he tends to hide his more fragile feelings behind an image of "manliness", as well as being in a denial about things like his health condition being things that can come between him and his goals until it becomes undeniable even for him.

Maki is a bit trickier to pin down initially, which is more because when you look at what she actually values, she very much fits as a SLI, it is shown time and again how in an ideal world, she would have just wanted to be the dad friend who ended up having a happy future with her old bestfriend from the orphanage where they find a stable job and have a happy life, with a soft spot for children and very much being weak to displays of closeness towards her, wanting to maintain said bonds if she can. She also is very adept at picking where Shuichi is coming from when it comes to his reasoning during investigation and trials- except she sees things he points out as obvious (Ti devalued as demonstrative) and she's not very impressed with Shuichi in general initially, as she sees him too naive. She also shows a liking for Ne at more relaxed situations, ie. her reminiscing about reading manga with other kids when she was younger, clearly missing that more spontaneous life style, as well as for Salmon Mode ending, her essentially conveying that she'd like the world to be more like how Shuichi (and Kaede too, really, given she equally saw her as naive given Alpha quadra values they share) seems to think/hope it is like.

Sp/sx 6w5 probably makes most sense for her, given how she tends to keep to herself, unless someone manages to make it through her lack of sociability to engage her sx, at which point said bond becomes only thing she would ever endanger her own self preservation for, and she tends to worry about a lot of things given she works as an assassin, without ever being able to trust others as she states anytime her cover was blown someone would try to kill her, yet she also doesn't trust herself and her own judgement either, while following orders she hates from a sense of loyalty to what one person she cared most about valued while she was still alive. One of the 61x tritypes, most likely 613 given how she can separate her feelings from her actions, and how she tends to not show her anger openly as a demonstration or play a peacemaker who disconnects from it, but turns it inwards until someone crosses one of her borders, at which point she will retaliate, sometimes rather painfully.

Kokichi is hard to pin down as well, mainly because he's a half written character in terms of how much we learn about him and his motivations in key points of the story (Ie. we never conclusively learn what was up with him in chapter 4 exactly, whether if he ever intented to go along with Killing Game Busters idea or not, what he exactly told Gonta and how, with what level of genuinely conveying what he thought to him etc) but my read on him at this point is ILE 7w6 783 so/sp-

He very much values Ne (his talk about endless possibilities of "lies", in a game where lies tend to be used interchangibly with stories/narratives/fiction) and his Fi is horrendous (to the point where 2D Role Fi user Shuichi essentially gives him a verbal smackdown on how he has no one on his corner that he made any bonds with vs Kaito, with also it being a common theme for Kokichi to annoy others by being inappropiate, which hits hard on as it is on his Point of Least Resistance), with his Ti creative also allowing him being able to make convincing logical argument in sense of how something might have happened (as Kiyo mentions in trial 1 that even he was taken along by his reasoning since he was talking with such convinction, while he was going off of conjecture at the time with little to no concrete clues he investigated at the time) and his Te demonstrative shows up in what plans he tried to pull (with his role Se allowing him to be able to flare up/show more pressure than Shuichi, though he is running away if ever faced with a stronger Se user, which is usually Kaito who tended to chase after him after his inciting comments) with also coming up with designs for Miu to make, and his Fe HA tends to show up in how he gets cranky whenever someone doesn't jump in to lighten the mood when he tries to bait someone with higher Fe into playing along with him/to take the charge of the emotional atmosphere.

He is, similar to Kaito, someone who tends to try to ignore his worries by overplanning and taking at times impulsive actions, and goes into 1 overly critical mode like him as well when he's really stressed, with his 6 wing tending to show up in him trying to seek alliances (as he worked with and offered to work with multiple people throughout the game, though also while keeping them at arm's length- with Gonta and Miu being main examples, but it also tends to show up in cases like where he thought everyone agreed flashback lights were shady when they first showed up in chapter 2, since everyone literally expressed said opinions just then, but when Kaito manages to convince them to use it, he is also as quick to change his tune and say they might as well try the obviously suspicious and dangerous thing that can do who knows what to their brains, why not right?!

His so/sp is also interesting in terms of how it foils with Kirumi, who also is so/sp, as it shows up more as how is even worse at Shuichi at showing more a sx side in the sense of actually showing his passions/taking the risk of vulnerability emotionally, and unlike Shuichi, he tends to make many risky moves that jeopardizes his own safety as his way of trying to ensure group safety at times (with even in other game modes like TDP and DR:S, him poking at dangerous people in the cast, often with citing he's doing it for everyone's safety). He also is just a posterchild for soc-first who is in denial about how paralyzing social expectations they can sense can feel, so trying to act edgier at times and making fun of social conventions etc where he can to try to assert himself as cool, or at least as someone who definitely does not care about if others like him or not, yet he'll keep including himself in things even when he's not invited.

783 also links to so/spness, as someone who can be a danger to the group seems to ruffle his 8, not that in general he comes off as a threat to most people given his Se role is very much a role function at the end of the day, though I can see argument for 793 given beyond that, he seems to enjoy chilling with people, even if he will take potshots at them to establish himself as the smartest guy/as the one on the top of the pecking ladder so to speak with people at times pointing more towards 8, and he's similarly able to push his feelings aside for his goals at times like Kaito, which points at 3 for his heart-fix, with both having a theme of playing roles, especially as super-ego types who are both amazed at what other can manage at times and feel like they get how the other works, while also repeatedly being surprised at what other does and why they would even do that, with Kokichi's sp also showing up in how he was willing to play along with Monokuma even when he was testing waters on what move he was allowed to pull without instantly being killed while trying to find some way to end the game, and criticizing Kaito on his recklessness as a sp-blind, while Kaito and others can hit hard on his sx-blindness back.

I'll have to think more about others, but I think Kirumi is clearly a so/sp (which makes her DRS event with Kokichi where he frames being pushed into a social status because you're seen as capable regardless of whether you want it or not as something that happens to other ultimates, and Kirumi in particular, which if he's so/sp as well, sounds like a possible veiled way to talk about isolation said stacking can lead one to feel, despite being a social first, as well as an inability to disconnect from social expectations that both of them reacts towards in opposite ways, despite both of them confirming their place in the group by attending to sp needs in their own way (Kirumi with more concrete taking care of others' needs with wanting perfection in her work, while Kokichi tends to do so by poking bears that he wants to know how dangerous they can be first hand to make sure they have a way to counter it if necessary, or at least to be aware of who to look out for both for his own and group's safety, even if his way of confirming involves putting himself in varying levels of calculated risk.)

I also think she's LSI, as like with Shuichi, she tends to approach things from a Ti base perspective of extensively categorizing things to figure out how things work and interact, and while her more maid related services would be seen as providing Si, comfort and physical needs, she seems to be doing it in the demonstrative way, as it is part of how she seeks status in social power hierarchy than just providing comfort to herself and ones she interacts with, which adds to the irony with Maki and her as she is a Se ego who's main work would be associated with Si on the surface, while Si ego one is the one doing much more reflex and rawness focused assassination job.

She is either a 1w2 or 2w1, with both being in her tritype either way, with like 125 archetype with either 1 or 2 in lead, as she is extensive with her research in things as a part of her "selfless devotion" to others' needs, though given her issues more seems to be on 7-1-4 lines (trouble letting herself relax, and her love hotel showing that her core fear being not being worthy enough love as in terms of just not being enough, rather than more 8 like sudden anger Kaede can get as a core 2) I'd say 125 with 1w2 as a wing probably is the likeliest for her. (Though I could see argument for since she already has 2 as a wing, in the case of 1w2, 135 could fit well for her given how driven she is with her job and status too, but I find 125 descriptions a bit closer to her than 135, though I can see either making sense, same with her 2 fix possibly being 2w3, though I tend to not assign fixes wings much at this point)

There is also Miu, who I have typed as an ILE, just a very at times neurotic 6w5 sx/sp one, as her Se is too weak to be anything but Role function at best, and her Ti and Te are too high for me to type her as an EIE or SEE, especially with how her PoLR Fe seems to trump even Kokichi's at being bad at human relations. She has a need to be useful to others (2), as it goes along with her inventions for her heart-fix, and I suppose 8 for her gut type would be the first thought, though I could also see her as a very neurotic 629, given how quick she is to back down whenever someone gets angry at her than being able to maintain her facade, and she seems to value harmony with others even if her soc-blindness+PoLR Fi+6ness+her backstory of being in a coma for years with likely not getting to have much of a social interaction with others before, beyond possibly maybe internet given how much her sense of humor and what she thinks is appropiate behavior seems to fit with more 4chan/2chan type of forums, she tends to cross lines that makes people uncomfortable often without intending to do so and disturbing the peace while trying to joke around (which is what baffles Kaede during their FTEs too).

Rantaro is harder to pin down as well, at least going off of his main game behavior, but I think SEI might be best fit, especially with his love hotel being very Si heavy (despite also clearly not being meant as a romantic/sexual one as his deepest desire was being able to open up about what happened with his family to someone he's a mentor figure for, similar to how he was with his younger siblings+pointing at him being a caregiver going by socionics romance styles) and he does seem to enjoy thought experiments while talking to Shuichi, with being good at smoothing things down (as we see when they first meet Monokuma in the main game/salmon mode, he is quick to step in to put things into perspective and ask what they want them to do given they clearly hold power over their lives and must have kidnapped them for something.). He also clearly cares about aesthetic, be it his fashion sense/piercings, or even him knowing how to do french slant for nails, clearly well versed in at makeup, or at least on nail side of things (Si) especially with the context for it being that he would do those things for his sisters (again, Fe+Fi valuing+caregiver, though in this case not meant in a sexual way)

My tentative instinctual stacking for him would be sp/so, only if because he seems to be a good team player in TDP (for example, during the sports event with Twogami) though he also tends to lone wolf from backstory reasons of repeated failures to protect ones under his wing in his eyes, but he very much enjoys company and tends to never miss any class event despite his travels in TDP (as his event with Kaede mentions that) and he clearly doesn't give the vibe of someone who's higher sx given he is not at all quick to open up about personal things, added to in his case a lack of interest in anyone romantically/sexually, though that does not mean sx-blind as it's established how Shuichi does have his own closet pervert tendencies very early on.

Those are the main ones that I was thinking about, but I'll probably jump in back with others' types later, and I'm curious what you all think of these typings and others' types too!
 
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yeghor

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1660627535821.png


I am not familiar with this game but the characters mostly look like action-oriented anarchist SP types.

Based on looks alone, I would guess 2nd, 3rd and 4th from top left to be Js, as well as the 4th from bottom left. And the last one on the bottom right looks like an ExTP, probably ENTP.

The guy they typed as INFJ is dressed in all black with a sports cap and emo hair, so that's a bit off. Might be an IxxP type.

The big guy might be an SP type, don't know why they typed him an ESFJ.
 

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Apeironstella

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It's a murder mystery game series where you play as a character who's trying to solve murders as they keep happening, with the format of the game being visual novel (as in, lots of reading) than much action, actually! (Beyond how arguments for who the culprit is framed, anyway, since that does get action-y with shooting actual words down.)

And a few of those typings I agree with, but a lot of them seems to be running on MBTI take on the cognitive functions, so I see where they come from, but even within that system I'd disagree with quite a bit of them, yeah.

2nd top left I'd type as LSI, but by MBTI I could see ISTJ argument, top left 3rd definitely isn't an ENFP yeah.

And the guy typed as INFJ wouldn't know Fe if it hit him, even if he values what Fe brings to table (which is why I type him as roughly INTP equivalent for MBTI), and the buff guy being typed ESFJ is because his whole thing is that he can look scary initially, but he very much is a gentle giant who is troubled by people assuming he's someone to be scared of, he very much values Fe, at least in Socionics definition, and he does have strong Se but not really valued, I'd say?

Bottom right being ENTP sounds right to me, given she'd love to be an ESTP, but her Se is. All bark no bite, hence role Se ILE typing I had for her. By MBTI definition, I see where they were probably coming from with ESFP, though.

And costumes are more something plot relevant as well, though yeah, there probably are a good amount of Se valuing/strong Se types in the cast, even if I'd say more maybe a quarter to half at best?
 
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yeghor

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And the guy typed as INFJ wouldn't know Fe if it hit him, even if he values what Fe brings to table (which is why I type him as roughly INTP equivalent for MBTI), and the buff guy being typed ESFJ is because his whole thing is that he can look scary initially, but he very much is a gentle giant who is troubled by people assuming he's someone to be scared of, he very much values Fe, at least in Socionics definition, and he does have strong Se but not really valued, I'd say?
The gentle giant thing is ISFP, like Hagrid in Harry Potter.
 

Apeironstella

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The gentle giant thing is ISFP, like Hagrid in Harry Potter.

I don't think I'd consider Gonta ISFP, especially since his whole issue is how he comes off to others and he does not really have the trust in his judgement enough for a Fi base/Fi type. I mainly see ESFJ or ESE considered for him, with only other type I can think of being LSE in case it is Fi suggestive+Fe role, but he clearly trusts others' judgements more than his own, with tending to worry about physical well being of others around him (including asking if they are eating/sleeping well, he's quite quick to fuss over others) for me to consider Se valuing than Si too?
 
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yeghor

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3rd one on the top left, Tsumugi, :oops: ISTP

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Not in V3 I guess but to contrast Tsumugi;

Kyoko Kirigiri, INTJ


 

Apeironstella

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3rd one on the top left, Tsumugi, :oops: ISTP

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I'd say Tsumugi is too delusional and living in her fantasy world to have Se anywhere near top, as her primary motivation is trying to replicate fictional characters and she is quick to escape to her fantasies when things get too troubling. Also V3 spoilers but



Only types I can see for her are either xEIs/IxFJs, but given Socionics Ni descriptions vs MBTI Si descriptions, I could see an argument for ISFJ in MBTI for her, but it really is one of the IxFJs?

I won't disagree with INTJ for Kyoko though, she definitely is a Ni base in both systems and Te creative/Aux Te in both systems too, but it's more of an INTJ vs one of the IxFJs comparison?
 
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yeghor

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She is delusional to the point of seeing brainwashed people as flesh and blood fictional characters, fiction brought to life, and she really can't defend herself through logic at all when she gets cornered at one point to prove her innocence at a certain something, and she wants the emotional exciment and drama of characters put through life threatening situations, with being quite good at flying under the radar by playing into how "plain" she is[/SPOILER]

Only types I can see for her are either xEIs/IxFJs, but given Socionics Ni descriptions vs MBTI Si descriptions, I could see an argument for ISFJ in MBTI for her, but it really is one of the IxFJs?

IxTPs acting on their tertiary and inferior functions would come across as IxFJs. I was inclined to type her INFJ by looks at first, that's why I said she might be one of the J types.

People on PDB seem to be typing her an xNFx. If she "feigns" INFJ to throw people off however, that means she might actually be an ISTP. Similar to how Emperor Palpatine has feigned benevolence and humility before revealing his true self.

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Apeironstella

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IxTPs acting on their tertiary and inferior functions would come across as IxFJs. I was inclined to type her INFJ by looks at first, that's why I said she might be one of the J types.

People on PDB seem to be typing her an xNFx. If she "feigns" INFJ to throw people off however, that means she might actually be an ISTP. Similar to how Emperor Palpatine has feigned benevolence and humility before revealing his true self.
I sincerely doubt she was feigning it as her strength lies in emotional manipulation and knowing when to throw in a phrase to shift the discussion subtly while staying in the background- like a Fe+Ni ego would. Entire game was a mess because she sucks at Te and Ti, as in she openly messed up her own storyline in her panic at one point, rather than being great at ironing logical inconsistencies out.

Only way she has to defend herself is through plea to emotion, and after that all her attacks at the rest of the cast are focused primarily on what emotionally would hurt them worst, she's the type who loses herself in a role at times, which adds to how she was able to stay under the radar as she barely presented herself different from how she is at the end of the game too, with only level of delusion she was on being revealed last trial, to show how cut off she's from reality (likely pointing at INFJ/IEI actually, how much she sucks at Se and Te, with how she only needs just a little Ti as scaffolding for her stories to allow some suspension of disbelief, as the main focus to her is the emotional high of the setting.)
 

yeghor

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I sincerely doubt she was feigning it as her strength lies in emotional manipulation and knowing when to throw in a phrase to shift the discussion subtly while staying in the background- like a Fe ego would. Entire game was a mess because she sucks at Te and Ti, as in she openly messed up her own storyline in her panic at one point, rather than being great at ironing logical inconsistencies out.

Only way she has to defend herself is through plea to emotion, and after that all her attacks at the rest of the cast are focused primarily on what emotionally would hurt them worst, she's the type who loses herself in a role at times, which adds to how she was able to stay under the radar as she barely presented herself different from how she is at the end of the game too, with only level of delusion she was on being revealed last trial, to show how cut off she's from reality (likely pointing at INFJ/IEI actually, how much she sucks at Se and Te, with how she only needs just a little Ti as scaffolding for her stories to allow some suspension of disbelief, as the main focus to her is the emotional high of the setting.
Why would an IxxJ feel the need to manipulate others in the first place?

 

Apeironstella

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Why would an IxxJ feel the need to manipulate others in the first place?

I would ask the reverse actually, especially given what would a Ji+Pe type have to gain from manipulating others through an external judging function (in this case Fe) which is their own achiles' heel to have much control or success in it, compared to a Pi+Je type? If you look at any of her free time events, her being Pi base is fairly obvious- she does attempt to sell it as a personality change, but it is simply a persona she puts on to try to present as a new Junko Enoshima as that's how just Danganronpa seasons goes in universe at that point, with seeds of this reveal being planted in her free time events+salmon mode ending where she talks about how she views what is the ideal cosplayer in her eyes, a Ni vision she tries to achieve through Fe creative/aux rather than anything pointing at Ti+Se ego in her behaviour, as the amount of logical holes in what she declares is so large that all she can do is deflect it by "well why don't you figure it out yourself?" back at the INTP/LII character (Shuichi) rather than having any explanation for logical inconsistencies in the story she tried to sell them for an alleged Ti dominant.

She is unable to convincingly use force of conviction on others (for supposed Se creative/aux) during the trial when her manipulations come to surface, even if she tries her best. Only time she really gets them is when she shows the questionable audition tapes, external evidence as questionable validation for what she says, and I'd say it's very Ni base of her to be thrown off by Ne bases (Angie and Kokichi) with one Se base as well (Kaito) that her more vague plan falls apart, as there was no grander point to this all beyond being a part of "ultimate real fiction" in the universe she loves most+it allowing her the chance to control others to achieve what she sees as "perfect cosplay" where people who are made into fictional characters have no choice but to act as their characters.

If you want an example of ISTP in V3, that would be Ryoma. He does have a strong Se with his Ni tertiary/hidden agenda occasionally peeking through, and in earlier trials when he was around he was basically one of the people leading the discussions with being both very perceptive and able to make convincing logical arguments from the facts he gathers, using them as base for potential motives when argues in the trials.

I simply don't see Tsumugi showing any sign of a Ji base/dominant, compared to her extroverted sensing function (in this case, Se) being her achiles' heel, both in terms of her being cut off from reality by being trapped in her own imagination/fantasy, with using her external judging function to try to achieve what her Pi base craves.

Because again, she lies a lot and postures throughout the trial, including her self denial of herself as Tsumugi Shirogane, while trying to pose as "Junko Enoshima The 53rd", which likely was the initial role she planned for what she pulls for the season finale, for me to accept that as a simple ooh she was pretending to be something completely opposite of her, when entire point of her character is that she shows where traits we already observed in her earlier in the game can lead to in an extreme, what extreme escapism and being cut off from reality would lead to, which I don't see manifesting in this specific way if it was an ISTP.
 

yeghor

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I would ask the reverse actually, especially given what would a Ji+Pe type have to gain from manipulating others through an external judging function (in this case Fe) which is their own achiles' heel to have much control or success in it, compared to a Pi+Je type? If you look at any of her free time events, her being Pi base is fairly obvious- she does attempt to sell it as a personality change, but it is simply a persona she puts on to try to present as a new Junko Enoshima as that's how just Danganronpa seasons goes in universe at that point, with seeds of this reveal being planted in her free time events+salmon mode ending where she talks about how she views what is the ideal cosplayer in her eyes, a Ni vision she tries to achieve through Fe creative/aux rather than anything pointing at Ti+Se ego in her behaviour, as the amount of logical holes in what she declares is so large that all she can do is deflect it by "well why don't you figure it out yourself?" back at the INTP/LII character (Shuichi) rather than having any explanation for logical inconsistencies in the story she tried to sell them for an alleged Ti dominant.

She is unable to convincingly use force of conviction on others (for supposed Se creative/aux) during the trial when her manipulations come to surface, even if she tries her best. Only time she really gets them is when she shows the questionable audition tapes, external evidence as questionable validation for what she says, and I'd say it's very Ni base of her to be thrown off by Ne bases (Angie and Kokichi) with one Se base as well (Kaito) that her more vague plan falls apart, as there was no grander point to this all beyond being a part of "ultimate real fiction" in the universe she loves most+it allowing her the chance to control others to achieve what she sees as "perfect cosplay" where people who are made into fictional characters have no choice but to act as their characters.

If you want an example of ISTP in V3, that would be Ryoma. He does have a strong Se with his Ni tertiary/hidden agenda occasionally peeking through, and in earlier trials when he was around he was basically one of the people leading the discussions with being both very perceptive and able to make convincing logical arguments from the facts he gathers, using them as base for potential motives when argues in the trials.

I simply don't see Tsumugi showing any sign of a Ji base/dominant, compared to her extroverted sensing function (in this case, Se) being her achiles' heel, both in terms of her being cut off from reality by being trapped in her own imagination/fantasy, with using her external judging function to try to achieve what her Pi base craves.

Because again, she lies a lot and postures throughout the trial, including her self denial of herself as Tsumugi Shirogane, while trying to pose as "Junko Enoshima The 53rd", which likely was the initial role she planned for what she pulls for the season finale, for me to accept that as a simple ooh she was pretending to be something completely opposite of her, when entire point of her character is that she shows where traits we already observed in her earlier in the game can lead to in an extreme, what extreme escapism and being cut off from reality would lead to, which I don't see manifesting in this specific way if it was an ISTP.
What do you make of this then?



Manipulative - High Se or Ne, conning behaviour
Cruel - low F
Mediocre Charisma wrt Junko - Mediocre Se
Mediocre Analytical prowess wrt Junko - T-aux or T-tert
Can conceal her true personality and intent - High Se or Ne, acting ability

Sounds like an ENTP, whereas Junko perhaps was the ISTP. ENFP would make sense for low T but I can't see how an ENFP can be so cruel so it doesn't click.

How does she compare to Miu Iruma then, whose description also sounds like ENTP.
 

yeghor

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What do you make of this then?



Manipulative - High Se or Ne, conning behaviour
Cruel - low F
Mediocre Charisma wrt Junko - Mediocre Se
Mediocre Analytical prowess wrt Junko - T-aux or T-tert
Can conceal her true personality and intent - High Se or Ne, acting ability

Sounds like an ENTP, whereas Junko perhaps was the ISTP. ENFP would make sense for low T but I can't see how an ENFP can be so cruel so it doesn't click.

How does she compare to Miu Iruma then, whose description also sounds like ENTP.

Or she might be an INTP. That would explain mediocre charisma, mediocre analysis as it is out of touch of with reality (Se), ability to assume multiple personas (Ne), and cruelty (low F).

It wouldn't conflict with Miu's typing as ENTP (inventor) either.
 

Apeironstella

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What do you make of this then?



Manipulative - High Se or Ne, conning behaviour
Cruel - low F
Mediocre Charisma wrt Junko - Mediocre Se
Mediocre Analytical prowess wrt Junko - T-aux or T-tert
Can conceal her true personality and intent - High Se or Ne, acting ability

Sounds like an ENTP, whereas Junko perhaps was the ISTP. ENFP would make sense for low T but I can't see how an ENFP can be so cruel so it doesn't click.

How does she compare to Miu Iruma then, whose description also sounds like ENTP.
??? Half the game went off script way before we even hit the end of chapter 1, she literally had to kill off a key character and impose a time limit because one ESFJ girl was able to keep everyone together, with Monokuma of the game repeatedly keeping taking potshots at her for causing that character to die with her ineptitude veiledly, and in the trial 6 you mention her "personality change", she literally admits to having to kill off Kokichi because he got her story way off script with what he pulled, with creator of the game himself repeatedly saying to not trust words of the mastermind so easily and to replay the prologue (which basically nullifies the audition tapes she shows, and puts the outside being as she claims into serious doubt when you compare it to how Tsumugi presents their prologue selves during the last trial to tone of the setting when others seemed to catch onto what they might have been dragged into (with no one who catches on looking happy in the slightest about it in the original prologue)), so all I can say is that description of her is simply inaccurate to how the game itself actually goes.

I'd suggest checking the actual game itself if you want to discuss her typing further, rather than just going off others' very short summaries of things, especially in a game where truth/lies is a main theme, with using a lot of smokescreens/unreliable narrators and bald-faced lies fairly frequently (with most of the fandom tending to take a lot of what Tsumugi states at face value)

Also, cruelty being low F is kind of a weak argument here, as she clearly during last trial thinks others joined willingly with there being a loving audience who agrees with her that the death of brainwashed people are not death of actual people but characters, as they "died" in her eyes, willingly too, to join this ultimate fiction- whether she was brainwashed into her role too (as given SDR2 and DR3, it would be very Kodaka to absolve entire cast of any culpability in the situation they were put in, despite liking to add the intrigue of ooh were the cast bad people before we knew them?) she is clearly justifying herself through her aux Fe by saying how this is a service for everyone who are overjoyed to watch this killing game entertainment. An ISTP wouldn't need to appeal to majority the way she does to defend what she's doing- she'd instead go full power into how she views cosplay and how it was necessary sacrifice for perfection of her Ti definition of what should be a cosplay or something more along those lines.

Which is also besides the point that F types are very much capable of being manipulative and cruel? Ethics and control of emotional atmosphere is their playground, do you really think only T types, who are half of the time unaware of the social games going behind their backs are the only ones capable of immoral harm, only ones able to justify to themselves doing what is objectively cruel action, especially with how FJs can get very passionate with Fe being extroverted feeling, the supposed objective ethics function, that they can't be blinded by their own sense of justice, or they can never justify convenience for themselves with their weaker logic?

Junko would drive an ISTP mad than being an ISTP herself, I'm quite puzzled by the way you seem to view logic types and ethics types honestly, is it because I've been out of touch with MBTI definitions for a long time, while I'm more used to Socionics descriptions where no one is sugar spice and everything nice when it comes to their base functions?
 
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Apeironstella

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Or she might be an INTP. That would explain mediocre charisma, mediocre analysis as it is out of touch of with reality (Se), ability to assume multiple personas (Ne), and cruelty (low F).

It wouldn't conflict with Miu's typing as ENTP (inventor) either.
That is at least more plausible with low Se and strong Ni, but she simply does not care about logical consistency of things nor concepts like a general sense of fairness as a principle (which at least in Socionics is a core part of what Ti is, as it is supposed to be unable to really pass judgements on morality of things beyond their weaker Fe and Fi giving them more of a general idea of what is good and bad, with golden rule morality being an easy go to without feeling like you're being unfair/like you are open to judgement on your ethics weakspot you can't defend yourself beyond trying to give logical justifications for your actions), and you can see it more when you look at her interactions with Shuichi, who is INTP himself. They get along fine, but even for Shuichi, Tsumugi is always just removed an extra step compared to himself, Se duality seeking vs Se PoLR.

Can you please point at anything that sounds like it has any amount of strong Ti from her at any point, besides your conviction that only T types can be immoral/cruel or whatever, going with what you seem to keep insisting on?
 

yeghor

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That is at least more plausible with low Se and strong Ni, but she simply does not care about logical consistency of things nor concepts like a general sense of fairness as a principle (which at least in Socionics is a core part of what Ti is, as it is supposed to be unable to really pass judgements on morality of things beyond their weaker Fe and Fi giving them more of a general idea of what is good and bad, with golden rule morality being an easy go to without feeling like you're being unfair/like you are open to judgement on your ethics weakspot you can't defend yourself beyond trying to give logical justifications for your actions), and you can see it more when you look at her interactions with Shuichi, who is INTP himself. They get along fine, but even for Shuichi, Tsumugi is always just removed an extra step compared to himself, Se duality seeking vs Se PoLR.

Can you please point at anything that sounds like it has any amount of strong Ti from her at any point, besides your conviction that only T types can be immoral/cruel or whatever, going with what you seem to keep insisting on?
Reading Shuichi's personality description, I am beginning to think he's indeed an INFJ btw. Interesting that he contrasts himself and considers inferior to Kyoko, which I believe might be an INTJ.


They seem to have typedShuichi predominantly as an INxJ on PDB.

Kyoko is also typed as INTJ on PDB by a far margin:

So it may be better to contrast Tsugumi to these two to decide on how well she relates to INxJ type.

As for cruelty and T, F is a more feminine mindset and hence more focused on preserving life and beauty than destroying it. F types would be more focused on being loved/admired whereas T types are more focused on being respected and having power. As F relates to empathy, F types would only hurt others if they deem them to be detrimental to life or their popularity/esteem, hence would have no empathy for them, whereas for T types, they would hurt people if they deem them to be detrimental to their respect and power. That's just my understanding of course.
 

Apeironstella

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Reading Shuichi's personality description, I am beginning to think he's indeed an INFJ btw. Interesting that he contrasts himself and considers inferior to Kyoko, which I believe might be an INTJ.


They seem to have typedShuichi predominantly as an INxJ on PDB.

Kyoko is also typed as INTJ on PDB by a far margin:

So it may be better to contrast Tsugumi to these two to decide on how well she relates to INxJ type.
Shuichi does suck at Fe, but he does value it, as it shows whenever he interacts with Kaede (an ESE), with how quickly her Fe base can get him to open up. Even in MBTI description, he does not have auxilary Fe, his main problem is that he's terrible at assessing closeness levels with others and in general he gets tripped up on morality related topics/ability to lighten the mood super bad, with having a real knack for more logic puzzles/figuring out how things logically follow. His "insights" tend to be not Ni valuing/dominant way of more nebulous connections he makes after observing his environment/just a flash of inspiration, but more something he arrives at after he sifts through possibilities his Ne comes up with to try to see how things make most sense in a Ti dominant way, with clearly enjoying Ne rather than how an IEI tends to ignore Ne for the sake of maintaining Ni base.

Which is to say, again, I'd highly suggest checking the game out yourself if your interest is piqued, as I'm not really interested in debating types over second hand popularity vote as much, even if I can go into why I disagree more.

As for cruelty and T, F is a more feminine mindset and hence more focused on preserving life and beauty than destroying it. F types would be more focused on being loved/admired whereas T types are more focused on being respected and having power. As F relates to empathy, F types would only hurt others if they deem them to be detrimental to life or their popularity/esteem, hence would have no empathy for them, whereas for T types, they would hurt people if they deem them to be detrimental to their respect and power. That's just my understanding of course.
I'd say that's very simplistic and sounds like how information elements tend to stack in beta quadra (as unless I'm wrong, I'm getting the impression you're IEI? Do correct me if not though) rather than describing how they work for everyone else, and both F and T types are very capable of harm that doesn't have anything to do with more stereotypical gender associations, really.

Where do you draw the line between a F type claiming and believing they are "preserving life" by who they deem to be people who are just enough to deserve to live in their eyes/who they define as people, or even simply, the amount of cult leaders with high F being how they appealed to drag people into their inner circle by appealing to their emotional needs? I don't think it's wise to simplify any overall cognition category as only capable of X, especially when it comes to harm that can be caused and how, especially given popularity is more a Se+Fe field, at least in socionics than covering entire ethics function too.
 

yeghor

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Which is to say, again, I'd highly suggest checking the game out yourself if your interest is piqued, as I'm not really interested in debating types over second hand popularity vote as much, even if I can go into why I disagree more.

I'd say that's very simplistic and sounds like how information elements tend to stack in beta quadra (as unless I'm wrong, I'm getting the impression you're IEI? Do correct me if not though) rather than describing how they work for everyone else, and both F and T types are very capable of harm that doesn't have anything to do with more stereotypical gender associations, really.

Where do you draw the line between a F type claiming and believing they are "preserving life" by who they deem to be people who are just enough to deserve to live in their eyes/who they define as people, or even simply, the amount of cult leaders with high F being how they appealed to drag people into their inner circle by appealing to their emotional needs? I don't think it's wise to simplify any overall cognition category as only capable of X, especially when it comes to harm that can be caused and how, especially given popularity is more a Se+Fe field, at least in socionics than covering entire ethics function too.
I don't know what I am in socionics, I find it a bit of a garbled system.

The line depends on the level of F and the gender of the person. In dominant position its goal is to garner personal love/admiration, in auxiliary position its goal is to create communal harmony. Anyone that is directly at odds with these goals would be considered hostile. If the person is female, they would try to drive away the person thru verbal harm, if they are male, they might resort to verbal and bodily harm.

I've no desire to play the game so I'll just leave the typing to you.
 

Apeironstella

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I don't know what I am in socionics, I find it a bit of a garbled system.
That's fair, though I'd say the opposite ironically- while Socionics bombards you with a lot terms initially, I find MBTI too simplified to the point of a lot of functions feeling very hollowed out to present only the most feel goodsy version of them for the most part, at this point?

The line depends on the level of F and the gender of the person. In dominant position its goal is to garner personal love/admiration, in auxiliary position its goal is to create communal harmony. Anyone that is directly at odds with these goals would be considered hostile. If the person is female, they would try to drive away the person thru verbal harm, if they are male, they might resort to verbal and bodily harm.
And I can't say I can quite unpack what you mean beyond gender expectations and roles having a hand in how a F type might show their hostility, as by your own description there is nothing stopping said F type from also being the one who would in that case could be considered to be the one deserving the shunning, especially with what "communal harmony" can mean if left unchecked/if taken to extreme, with personal love/admiration being clear on how that can go awry too, so were they supposed to be examples of how F types can be manipulative/harmful/cruel, or?

I've no desire to play the game so I'll just leave the typing to you.
Which is also fair, and I do hope it didn't come hurtful, but I think it's also mainly how things are defined very differently between two systems too, that trying to use both in a discussion when they don't really tend to map as 1:1 as one expect does cause some disconnection too?

Added to what stereotypes of types are too, like ISFP might be gentle giant archetype in MBTI as you mentioned, but the one that would be "functional equivalent" of ISFP in Socionics is mainly considered "closest we have to a gold digger type"/a type that while can be caring, also can be quite judgemental with ones both in and out of their circle, with Se also being seen linked to how it affects quadra sexuality etc? Which was why I started the thread with talking about Socionics types actually, though I can't really stop it if others want to mainly engage in MBTI types of characters too, really.
 
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