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criticisms about enneagrammer's descriptions/celebrity typings

nyxphei

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Has anyone else really looked into Enneagrammer’s celebrity typings and noticed certain inconsistencies between their type descriptions and how they actually type people? In particular with regards to enneagram 4s and 5s. And it’s not just one or two, there are quite a few examples which makes me skeptical about their super strict definition about 4 – I agree that 4 is overtyped however not to the point that pretty much everyone is a 6 or 9, and I do not see why 4 fixes should be super rare either. I pretty much agree with them about these people’s types, however according to their definition I’m not sure why they are typing them as such or why they are defining type 4 to such a strict degree. I would confront them directly however they won't actually let me join their facebook group since I have no social media.



Some examples I saw (out of people I know fairly well):


Fours:

- Chelsea Wolfe, who they type as 4w5 sp/sx. Yet she is a self described empath and talks quite a bit about being very sensitive to energies and even becoming overwhelmed by people’s energy, which enneagrammer especially sees as a red flag for 9. She has also described in an interview how as a teenager she ‘tried to fade into the background’ and ‘go with the flow’ despite having an ‘inner rebellion’ that would occasionally erupt and her ‘unexpressed self would come out’ when she became sick of whatever she was ‘pretending to fit in with’ or ‘had fallen into’. This honestly really surprised me because it was extremely 9ish even to me, and especially seems strange for a social blind 4.

- Johnny Depp, who they type as so/sx 4w5 468 (not sure why 8 fix since he seems very chill and easy-going? Honestly doesn’t even come across as elitist or whatever). My problem here is how enneagrammer attributes ‘celebrating being special’ to 6-9 (but then what exactly does the 4 feel elitist about if not with regards to being different and special?), yet Depp has so many quotes about being true to oneself and in fact literally celebrates weirdness in this quote: “I think everybody's weird. We should all celebrate our individuality and not be embarrassed or ashamed of it.”

- Another self described empath, Nostalghia, who is typed 4w3 sx/sp. I don’t know her that well but reading an interview it seems that she really has a deep connection to nature and desire to heal others which I bet enneagrammer would usually say is 9.

- David Bowie who they type as 4w3 sp/sx 478, I have no clue why he is typed as such when he is very 3ish in general, and he even made this ridiculously anti-4 statement: “I’ve always been a very curious and enthusiastic person from when I was a teenager. It really wasn't up to me to try and identify exactly what that meant. I just had to accept that I was a person with a very short attention span who would move from one thing to another quite rapidly when I got bored with the other. I became comfortable with that and didn't try to identify myself or try and ask myself who I was. The less questioning I did about myself as to who I was, the more comfortable I felt. So now I have absolutely no knowledge of who I am, and I'm extremely happy".

- Lana Del Rey who they type as so/sx 4w3 496 (I think she is 4w3 or 2w3) however she has also said some rather non-4ish things such as wanting to be a “gangster Nancy Sinatra” – doesn’t seem like their description of 4 being sickened by the thought of being predictable. Also she has stated that “I didn’t feel trapped in a trailer park. I felt trapped before I got to the trailer park because I had nowhere to live. When I got my trailer, everyone there had the same taste as I did. We all liked giant, lush, fake flower gardens and liked to decorate the walls with streamers even if it wasn’t our birthday. I couldn’t have been happier there.”, which completely lacks any extreme dislike of being on the same page as anyone or the constant frustration that they describe 4 to have.

- I even have a problem with Bob Dylan who they type as 4w5 sx/so 478, yet who started off his career practically imitating his hero Woody Guthrie, literally copying his singing style which strikes me as weird for a 4 who enneagrammer claims would be constantly rejecting outside influences, and honestly seems more 6ish to me. (I consider him to have a 6 fix).

- Their favourite four, Marilyn Manson (typed as 4w5 so/sp 468) also obviously actively tries to be different and stand out, and again I think ennegrammer likes to claim that trying to be different/seeing yourself as different from others as well as so many other 4ish things is 6-9 for whatever reason, which I disagree with because I don’t believe the 4’s individuation process is as unconscious as they claim. Certainly a lot of type 4 celebrities seem very aware of their individuality and express a distaste for being normal. Also they really like to use Manson as an example of 4 which I find can be a bit extreme considering his triple reactive tritype and general issues outside of type.


Fives:

- Tim Burton, who they type as 5w4 so/sx (which I disagree with, I consider him a 4w5 if not 4w3). Really doesn’t seem to be a head type based on these quotes: ‘I've always been more comfortable making my decisions from the subconscious level, or more emotionally, because I find it is more truthful to me; Intellectually, I don't think like that because I get uncomfortable.’ and ‘It's hard to find logic in things sometimes. That's why I can't analyze things too much, because it often doesn't make much sense.’ This is interesting to me in particular because one of the reasons enneagrammer types David Lynch as a 9w1 rather than 5w4 is because he doesn’t like things to make sense in his movies and also loves to rely on his subconscious. Talks a lot about feeling alienated and in my opinion his movies really seem to actively celebrate being weird. Also doesn’t describe himself as a dark person.

- Kurt Cobain, typed as 5w4 548 sp/sx. Again I see him as a 4w5 since he talks so much about his feelings of shame and his envy of a ‘normal childhood’ after his parents’ divorce. I feel like enneagrammer seems to kind of ignore the topic of envy for fours in general. An interesting thing also is that he was actually rather ambitious and genuinely desired fame at first, which almost seems to suggest some kind of 3 influence especially considering he is soc blind, and seems quite confusing if he is a 5w4. Also talked about really being sensitive and said stuff like “There's good in all of us and I think I simply love people too much, so much that it makes me feel too fucking sad.” which just doesn't really fit the disconnect of soc blind 5w4.

- Franz Kafka, typed as 5w4 sx/sp (I see him as either 5w4 or 6w5). The problem here is how much enneagrammer emphasises 5’s lack of desire to socially connect with people, even social 5s it seems. Yet Franz Kafka seemed to have had major issues with strongly wishing to connect with his father and earn his respect, which seems a bit odd considering their emphasis on 5w4 and soc last not desiring to ‘connect’.


Apart from this there are also quite a few people who I have no idea why enneagrammer types them a certain way but that's a different issue.
 

The Tsarevich

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Well they've typed me as a 6-9 combo which...if you've read any of my back posts, you would know that I have very different issues than the "double attachment" they like to harp on. Granted, David didn't officially type me this way, but people did using his methods.

And yeah, I strongly disagree with some of the celebrity typings. Others I think are actually a very good call. I don't know much about their actual process for doing so, except that they see things "archetypally", which might actually lead to overlooking contradictions. I don't have any specific contributions to make, just a general point.
 

chickpea

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😂i have been watching the trainwreck of enneagramer for a minute now, i'm glad i'm not alone in noticing this stuff. every sx/sp 4w5 they have is like some over-the-top goth caricature apart from river phoenix lol. also i just feel like they're full on trying to start a cult (and it's working?).

some of their typings are fun to think about though. even if they're wrong, i do enjoy a creative and well thought out argument against a common typing for someone. i think they are using a very specific lens towards type that isn't necessarily mine, but at least they're doing something interesting and controversial.

i'm sure they would deem me #nota4 especially not a precious rare sx/sp 4!
 

Lord Lavender

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While I enjoy a lot of what enneagrammer has written their odd insistence on how you can look into someones soul and heart with a collage (Probably helps they want to empty your bank account and fill their own up hmmmmmmm I wonder why he he he he. :cool:;)

Overall I would say enjoy what they talk about but unless you want to fund Scientology 2 I wouldnt give them a cent,a penny,a yen (whatever your local smallest unit of currency is) for anything they peddle. Though I will say I am glad they talk about stems and how they combine with one another.
 

Saturnal Snowqueen

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I don't know enough about these celebrities to type them, but I didn't know they made collages. Especially the dead people. Which, I assumed they didn't do any IVs without them. Also, I love how they're so reserved about giving out 4 typings when most of the staff has a 4 somewhere in the tritype. Which wouldn't surprise me, they're definitely elitist. Allowed to be type 4s because of their status. I'd type Enneagrammer as a whole philosopher tritype and sx dom. Ironically, they don't really seem to gatekeep sx, and I can see why, there are some very....esoteric collages submitted there. I kinda hate collage typing, I like it sometimes simply because I make collages but I hate the idea of someone saying you can't be a certain stacking just because you were attracted to a certain array of images. You don't even know what the images mean to them, either, if they saw them the way you did. I get that there's some science around it, but it's not a clear cut thing, and I hate that they're so set in their ways about it and you can spill your heart out about how you relate to a stacking and they'll be like, "No, there is a pillow in your collage, clear "stuff", sp dom. I'm suffocating, you're sx dom." I am tempted to get a paid typing, they did use to do free typings of collages in their Facebook group and I got so/sp. I wouldn't shell out 100 bucks for a video typing, though. Also, Orpheus is fucking terrifying...
 

Morpeko

Noble Wolf
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Has anyone else really looked into Enneagrammer’s celebrity typings and noticed certain inconsistencies between their type descriptions and how they actually type people? In particular with regards to enneagram 4s and 5s. And it’s not just one or two, there are quite a few examples which makes me skeptical about their super strict definition about 4 – I agree that 4 is overtyped however not to the point that pretty much everyone is a 6 or 9, and I do not see why 4 fixes should be super rare either. I pretty much agree with them about these people’s types, however according to their definition I’m not sure why they are typing them as such or why they are defining type 4 to such a strict degree. I would confront them directly however they won't actually let me join their facebook group since I have no social media.



Some examples I saw (out of people I know fairly well):


Fours:

- Chelsea Wolfe, who they type as 4w5 sp/sx. Yet she is a self described empath and talks quite a bit about being very sensitive to energies and even becoming overwhelmed by people’s energy, which enneagrammer especially sees as a red flag for 9. She has also described in an interview how as a teenager she ‘tried to fade into the background’ and ‘go with the flow’ despite having an ‘inner rebellion’ that would occasionally erupt and her ‘unexpressed self would come out’ when she became sick of whatever she was ‘pretending to fit in with’ or ‘had fallen into’. This honestly really surprised me because it was extremely 9ish even to me, and especially seems strange for a social blind 4.

- Johnny Depp, who they type as so/sx 4w5 468 (not sure why 8 fix since he seems very chill and easy-going? Honestly doesn’t even come across as elitist or whatever). My problem here is how enneagrammer attributes ‘celebrating being special’ to 6-9 (but then what exactly does the 4 feel elitist about if not with regards to being different and special?), yet Depp has so many quotes about being true to oneself and in fact literally celebrates weirdness in this quote: “I think everybody's weird. We should all celebrate our individuality and not be embarrassed or ashamed of it.”

- Lana Del Rey who they type as so/sx 4w3 496 (I think she is 4w3 or 2w3) however she has also said some rather non-4ish things such as wanting to be a “gangster Nancy Sinatra” – doesn’t seem like their description of 4 being sickened by the thought of being predictable. Also she has stated that “I didn’t feel trapped in a trailer park. I felt trapped before I got to the trailer park because I had nowhere to live. When I got my trailer, everyone there had the same taste as I did. We all liked giant, lush, fake flower gardens and liked to decorate the walls with streamers even if it wasn’t our birthday. I couldn’t have been happier there.”, which completely lacks any extreme dislike of being on the same page as anyone or the constant frustration that they describe 4 to have.

- Their favourite four, Marilyn Manson (typed as 4w5 so/sp 468) also obviously actively tries to be different and stand out, and again I think ennegrammer likes to claim that trying to be different/seeing yourself as different from others as well as so many other 4ish things is 6-9 for whatever reason, which I disagree with because I don’t believe the 4’s individuation process is as unconscious as they claim. Certainly a lot of type 4 celebrities seem very aware of their individuality and express a distaste for being normal. Also they really like to use Manson as an example of 4 which I find can be a bit extreme considering his triple reactive tritype and general issues outside of type.
They're bad at typing 4s, I agree. I like Chelsea Wolfe's music and I also see her as a 9 (though I haven't looked into her as much outside her discography, as you have). I feel like any reasoning for typing her as a 4 is through stereotype. 9s can have interest in making dark, deep music...

I am extremely convinced that Lana Del Rey is NOT a 4 at all, and I'm actually opinionated about that. I believe 2w3 as well. Besides frustration of the 4 (which, 2s have connection to type 4 anyway), she doesn't really have any actual 4 traits... And those quotes you mentioned is good proof against her being a 4.

As for the other two, I'm also confused why Johnny Depp is typed as a triple reactive. He seemed like an obvious 9 fix. I think 4w5 isn't too bad of a core typing for him. I think Marilyn Manson is definitely 468 in some order (I think he could be an 8 core but IDK), and I also don't think he should be an epitome of type 4 for those reasons.
 

Vendrah

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You guys really think they are anywhere Scientific here?
Im sorry, but tests, type me threads and the few online friends over the forum opinion might be enough for a lot of people, and for celebrity it is not as if Sakinorva or Personality-database are really useless.
 

Morpeko

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You guys really think they are anywhere Scientific here?
Im sorry, but tests, type me threads and the few online friends over the forum opinion might be enough for a lot of people, and for celebrity it is not as if Sakinorva or Personality-database are really useless.
I don't think any of these things are scientific and I've never implied that.
 

Luminous

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@Lord Lavender used "Scientology 2" hahahahahah but I mean, yeah, Im used of not taking these guys who charge to type you at quite unofficial, underdeveloped and unscientifical systems, being troth at the same time, seriously.
I envy you that you didn't know what Scientology is. :)

Scientology is a set of beliefs and practices invented by American author L. Ron Hubbard, and an associated movement. It has been variously defined as a cult, a business or a new religious movement.[10]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology

I don't think it's an apt comparison, if one is interested in the actual theories that the people over at enneagrammer talk about... which we are, or most of us, anyway, that's why we're on a typology forum... That particular group of people may come off as being cultish, but I think it's in a way that doesn't have to do with the enneagram? (I am not in their Facebook group anymore, so I could be wrong.)
 

Vendrah

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I envy you that you didn't know what Scientology is. :)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology

I don't think it's an apt comparison, if one is interested in the actual theories that the people over at enneagrammer talk about... which we are, or most of us, anyway, that's why we're on a typology forum... That particular group of people may come off as being cultish, but I think it's in a way that doesn't have to do with the enneagram? (I am not in their Facebook group anymore, so I could be wrong.)
Wow, I didn't. Its the almost the opposite of what I was thinking.
 

The Tsarevich

Give me a fourth dot.
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I don't know enough about these celebrities to type them, but I didn't know they made collages. Especially the dead people. Which, I assumed they didn't do any IVs without them. Also, I love how they're so reserved about giving out 4 typings when most of the staff has a 4 somewhere in the tritype. Which wouldn't surprise me, they're definitely elitist. Allowed to be type 4s because of their status. I'd type Enneagrammer as a whole philosopher tritype and sx dom. Ironically, they don't really seem to gatekeep sx, and I can see why, there are some very....esoteric collages submitted there. I kinda hate collage typing, I like it sometimes simply because I make collages but I hate the idea of someone saying you can't be a certain stacking just because you were attracted to a certain array of images. You don't even know what the images mean to them, either, if they saw them the way you did. I get that there's some science around it, but it's not a clear cut thing, and I hate that they're so set in their ways about it and you can spill your heart out about how you relate to a stacking and they'll be like, "No, there is a pillow in your collage, clear "stuff", sp dom. I'm suffocating, you're sx dom." I am tempted to get a paid typing, they did use to do free typings of collages in their Facebook group and I got so/sp. I wouldn't shell out 100 bucks for a video typing, though. Also, Orpheus is fucking terrifying...
Yeah, they unoffcially typed my collage as sp/soc...which is just wrong as my tritype (I should know. I read their book). I too am almost tempted to pay for a typing...like an interview. Literally just to see how the "gurus" would type me, for science. The problem is that I'm too poor, and I wouldn't want them to have my money if I weren't.

Just ftr, I hear through the grapevine (from someone who worked on it) that their way of using collages is just as unscientific and inconsistent as everyone here suspects. Too bad I can't ever share my experience there and expect to be believed. They do gatekeep sx in my experience.
 

chickpea

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paid typing in general is silly to me, because i don't really believe that it can ever be 'scientific'. if you pay 5 people to type you, they'll probably all have different answers, because it's a very subjective process. paid typing especially loses its value when you are someone who already has a solid knowledge of the enneagram on their own, which i assume most people on this forum do. i just can't imagine it gives much enlightening information other than these random wannabe cult leaders' perception of you. which personally..... who gives a shit lol.

i bet if you send nudes you get a free typing anyway 😂 (the one dude totally divorced his wife and started dating an active member of their facebook group, the messy bitch who lives for drama in me loves it)
 

Luminous

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I got a typing from David Gray when I was still trying to figure out whether I was a 4 or a 9 and whether I had 4 in my tritype, and it was helpful talking to him, as it really did help to clarify my type. I think he's extremely intuitively insightful. The others I would never pay to type me. I admire that they want people to realize how many people are mistyping, but they could go about it in a different way.
 

The Tsarevich

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I got a typing from David Gray when I was still trying to figure out whether I was a 4 or a 9 and whether I had 4 in my tritype, and it was helpful talking to him, as it really did help to clarify my type. I think he's extremely intuitively insightful. The others I would never pay to type me. I admire that they want people to realize how many people are mistyping, but they could go about it in a different way.
This is my way of thinking of it. David is someone I would probably listen to. I'm not saying I think he is a guru or something. But I've watched him over the last 20 years and he is one of the few people I would love to talk about enneagram with. It's the rest of the group I find shady--the other admins, sure, but mainly the group itself. Lot of really toxic gatekeeping types who don't even understand wtf they're talking about. And all the fake-raunchy sexual stuff that goes on. *shudder*
 

nyxphei

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They really do seem to come off very cult-like, I've interacted with some people who are obviously in their facebook group who seem to just parrot what is said by them without seeming to question it for themselves which I found highly concerning, and hearing more stories like these such as how they have never typed anyone as 4 through paid typing or that they type people who disagree with them a 6/6-fixed just makes it seem super dodgy. I really wish I could try out their collage typing thing (i have a very dark aesthetic so i wonder if they would actually type me, a 9, as a 4 or 5 which would be really funny considering their gatekeeping) but for some absurd reason it is like 30 dollars despite their claim that the instinctual subtypes/enneagram are 'obvious' in the collages which really shouldn't warrant such a price if they are that easy to spot... Still, because of their descriptions I did realize a lot of 6-ish traits in me so I can't deny they have at least some good insights.
 

Luminous

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Lot of really toxic gatekeeping types who don't even understand wtf they're talking about. And all the fake-raunchy sexual stuff that goes on. *shudder*
That's why I'm not in their Facebook group anymore. There's too much saltiness from toxic people. I don't need that crap in my life.
 

Vendrah

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It actually occur to my mind that, if they don't type anyone as 4, then we could say that they use the enneagram of 8 types. If they type nobody as 4, then it is as if type 4 doesn't exist.
 

Totenkindly

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paid typing in general is silly to me, because i don't really believe that it can ever be 'scientific'. if you pay 5 people to type you, they'll probably all have different answers, because it's a very subjective process. paid typing especially loses its value when you are someone who already has a solid knowledge of the enneagram on their own, which i assume most people on this forum do. i just can't imagine it gives much enlightening information other than these random wannabe cult leaders' perception of you. which personally..... who gives a shit lol.
Honestly, they are not asking to be paid because they can provide a quantifiably justified type read of anyone -- they are being paid because they would rather be discussing personality theory for pay vs a more conventional job. In other words, the customer is doing them more of a favor than they are doing the customer, who can probably find similar information about typing themselves for free on the Internet that might be the same (or close) quality.

--

In general, I don't really bother looking at these major type sites, after I would read them and see a bunch of reads I disagreed with. After all, it's just their opinion, and arguing with them doesn't actually change anything. It seems more useful to just make one's own type site if a person has an opinion that differs from these people, and just promote one's own reads they think are more valid and why.
 
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