• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Am I really an INFP or something else?

Arcturus

witching hour
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Messages
4,620
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
648
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
OKAY, before I start with everything else I feel like I need to address this since I think there is a huge misunderstanding happening here. My friend is not an asexual. I am the asexual in the friendship and my friend is allo. Me being uncomfortable therefore does not come from the fact they are ace - but me as an ace not being able to understand this feeling of "they are hot, I want to hook up" and they are very open about the fact they sleep with people only for the looks. They once texted with someone they deemed as "crazy" just because they were attractive and planned on just going to bed with them and then leave them. It's not USUALLY what he plans but this outlook makes me really uncomfy. I appreciate you advocating and making sure people get the right idea about asexuality though. I am just afraid you might have used that time on someone already who was already aware :"D. Sorry if I triggered you in any way.

Bolded- no. Actually, I'd tried saying what I did as softly as possible. Figures it still came across harshly enough. Apologies.
Yes, you mentioned you were asexual too, but then again some closested homosexual people can engage in paradoxical bigotry. It happens- was making sure. Don't worry- I understand that you are asexual, though I did misunderstand somewhere up there thinking you perhaps had an asexual friend among the others you had mentioned. I see my explanation was not needed- that's good.

You are ... almost excessively reassuring. What a gentle way to refute what I said yet still be appreciative. I must say it's funny (not in a making fun of way, it's a little endearing). I'd held back my tongue on it, but it's happened several times now I just have to say it. FJ + 9 really is something, huh.


This is interesting as you would think that as a Ne inferior me having less inuitive qualities would be more obvious. Honestly funny enough I always saw myself as an (at least party) intuitive person even though I always knew my Si is pretty strong.

Intuitive- as in, in the MBTI sense, or in the general sense?


I think in my case it tends to be very interesting. I tend to be pretty precise when it comes to explaining my thoughts or relating to people "I think x is y because xy happened in the past" or " I relate to you, because situation z". But in therapy for example I was told very often that it's hard for people to imagine what I am talking about because I am not giving descriptions or details. "I tend to be overemotional" and can't give examples of me being overemotional - or describing overall dynamics between me and others without going into detail. Often I also realise that I tend to overgeneralize, talking about "this person" or "the type of person that". Again, in therapy I was asked once to describe how a person I talk about looks and I was very uncomfortable and didn't even know if I could remember enough of it. Doesn't 100% debunk your explanation, just wanted to throw it there. But I agree in the way that I am not really metaphorical or abstract in my speech. And people even IRL tend to tell me my way of speaking is very exact and to the point (even if I tend to go on tangents).

I don't like going on stereotypes or trends and nothing else, but for what it's worth, Ti influence (with Si) can do this. INTPs can be incredibly verbose and overly precise to a level of pedantry that wears my patience thin (do not worry, you have not).

Bolded- fair. I had considered the possibility that you could have adapted yourself to be this way for any reason (school, work, therapy even, etc). Is why I did mention that I still hadn't noticed Ni, however. Your way of processing- underlined + bolded is also still quite reminiscent (not 100%, but reminiscent) of Si/Ne axis, and if you were -F, it would make it Si-dom Ne inferior.


While still not 100% sure on the 3 wing (I would need to do more research on it) I agree about everything else!

I still have a few questions though (mostly stereotypes I want to get rid of) so maybe you can listen to this and have a statement about it:
- I heard that Si doms usually don't struggle with productivity or having a regulated life. I struggle with both. I NEED schedule and route but suck and maintaining it. I might tell myself to get to a routine, get bored by it after a few weeks or (if it goes really well) months and go back to do whatever. With productivity... usually when I start something new I tend to be super organised and work hard, but after awhile I (without really trying to) do a challenge for myself "how much less can I work for a similar result". So I end up doing rushed work in 30 minutes, stressing myself out, getting anxious and regretting my life choices.

One of my long-term friends is ISFJ, no question, fits through and through, even more strongly than you do (your N/S divide is fuzzy). She is also the most disastrous person I've ever met.

It's the thing about motivation VS skill + circumstances. There are many reasons one is unable to achieve productivity or having a regulated life. It comes down to your circumstances and if you'd acquired the skill to do what you want, AND the opportunity to actually act on it.

You are in therapy. Without knowing more about why, I can't say for certain that bolded is a product of P-style MBTI cognition or simply a symptom of something else. For what it's worth, you could still see as your desire to attain that kind of productivity and regulated life as a sign that underneath whatever is stopping you, you might have a -J temperament- perhaps it is being blocked/thwarted by anxiety, whatever you are going to therapy for, your life circumstances, sheer bad luck- or perhaps that you indeed are a perceiver. I do not know. But something to consider. If you were given free reign- all the time, money you need- what does your ideal life look like? Why do you 'suck' at maintaining a routine and schedule despite wanting it? What causes you to burn out?


- I don't see myself being in tune with reality or the world around me all too much. I don't notice when people are wearing something different, I am not looking what is happening around me when I go somewhere, I tend me need ALOT of time to find something that is right infront of me, I don't care about the things I wear or what other people wear, and 90% of my thoughts are about my interests and what I am gonna do next or some imaginery scenarios (self-inserting into my favorite shows). While I DO constrast with my past alot I don't think I go there 24/7 and it mainly comes up in interactions. Honestly, me not being focused of what needs to be done at the moment or what is happening around me can cause me huge problems. Though I guess alot of this can come down to people describing Si as if it's Se and mixing it up?
- There is more but I can't think of it right now... might write it down in the future.

- Not noticing when someone is wearing something different: a possibility is that it is something you consider irrelevant and do not pay attention to. When you do have to, or better yet, want to pay attention to something, how detail-oriented are you?

- Not looking at what is happening around you: the environment, the people? As in, low situational awareness? This alone could possibly be low/no Se instead of necessarily low Si.

- You don't care about what you wear or what others wear: personal taste rather than cognition. One might even argue that a strong sp/so ISFJ would not care because it wouldn't be practical to be fussy with your clothes or to care about fashion trends, or more likely, that your interests lie elsewhere.

- You have imagination: one of the best / most creative authors I know is ISFJ. I've mentioned that my listed typing is a joke- I'm actually N, but I can't write to save my life. 'Ns are more imaginative' is also one of the bad stereotypes out there- ironic, since it's usually IS-- folks who are called 'The Artists'.

- Contrast with past a lot but not 24/7: neither do IS-Js in general, just like how even Fi-doms aren't always drenched in emotion, T-doms aren't always stone faced, etc. It's a spectrum after all- between N, and S, where do you lie? Just because you are not 100% at S it doesn't mean you are N, it might mean the divide is 40-60 N/S instead. IS-Js do have to be able to forecast the future to be able to be as structured as they are, they just do it differently than IN-Js- and do tend to reference the past more, so the theory goes.

- Your thoughts are mostly about your interests and what you would do next: not telling of N/S, just who you are as a person and your preferences. What would be a greater tell is how you act on it. I assume that this is also representative of your free time- aside from workaholics, I doubt people would spend time thinking about things that aren't involved in their interests, or things that are uninteresting to them. I also doubt that this occurs 24/7- when you are working, say, what thoughts fill your mind? You say you think of "what you would do next"- what does this tend to be, and why?


Funny you are saying this as I often question whether I am a 6 and people on a discord server (that are very well read on enneagram) were convinced a couple times I could be a 6. I think you thinking otherwise might come down to the nature of a forum as it's easy to present myself in a structured way here and make myself more polished. Anxiety is a huge part of my life and is a huge reason why I am still stuck with a life I am unhappy with. Though, fairly enough, I didn't type myself as a 3 fix for very long. And I am definitely seeing more qualities of it than I did before. Maybe I will see even more of it as I go on.

Typology isn't pathology/illness, though. I think people overly conflate anxiety with E6, and while E6s tend to have tendencies that could lend to 'anxious looking' behaviours (their vigilance, alertness- usually), it's not THE anxiety disorder itself. You can have both, but if your point of typing as 6 is 'because you are anxious', that isn't enough. What do you get anxious about? How do you deal with that anxiety? Why does it give you anxiety?

Think of say a 2 who is being taken advantage of. They would be in almost perpetual anxiety. A 4 who cannot realise themselves- anxiety. A 5 thrust into parties way too many times- anxiety. Doesn't mean they've turned into a 6, are 6-fixed, or 6-winged necessarily.

What do you mean when you say "anxiety is a huge part of your life"?
Aside from anxiety, what do you actually relate to about a 6's motivations and how they work?
Why did those folks give you 6? 9 + 3 seemed like a better fit for things I have mentioned. I wonder if your attachment + active tendencies are being misread as 6, because you seem more strongly 9 and 3 than 6- a bit like how 6 + 4 can masquerade as 8 at times, or how 3 + 5 soc can look like 1.


Okay, I mistyped: "It DIDN'T help with my frustration". But yeah, after I got typed as an INFJ by the person I talked you about, I changed my type on a discord server and I went to the corresponding channel to talk to people of the same (or similar type) and have a great time. However, after seeing I changed from an INFP to an INFJ people wanted to know why and instead of trusting my judgement they were starting to type me all over - even if I didn't ask anymore. I think they instantly assumed they would need to help me from being mistyped. Either that, or prove, that I am actually an INFJ. Some people were certain I use Ne over Ni in the way I communicated and was able to "keep up with fast and random Ne speech" and understand it. Also I already knew that apprently most people who are INFJs are mistyped so I instantly doubted my type... again. Also seeing other "real" INFJs made me question my type to, as they were talking about not being understood, and people being shocked about their insights that were obvious them. I couldn't relate to it. After talking to one INFJ in private she said "you just need someone to listen to your ideas and insights" and I instantly thought "I have literally no insights". I felt like I had to fake my speech in order to sound like a "real INFJ" (I talked like I do to you now, just in an actual fast moving chat, it was tiring because I just wanted to have a fun time). I changed my type back to INFP and felt better, because people don't usually question INFPs (though people questioned me having Fi in the past, but not many). After being in another server that was more layed back and talking to the people there in a way that was more fun, I was told by a person "Interesting, I was on that other server with you, and you gave off huge INFJ vibes but now I get huge INFP / Ne vibes from you). I in general feel like whenever I go into "explanation" or "description mode" I talk like this. But whenever I am talking to a person on a friendship-level and am casual (without tension) with them, I send 20 messages, fragmented thoughts, being more "random" too.

If you have to fake it, it's likely you're not it. That being said, what do you mean by "I have literally no insights"- what are 'insights' to you?
About 'being random' and following 'fast and random Ne speech' well; would need to ascertain it's not related to the above- why you're having a hard time being productive and structured- why you're going to the therapist, though this does push for Si/Ne axis more.


What I related to INFJ... hard to pinpoint. I was watching alot of videos about common INFJ experiences (memes but also descriptions), the ways the functions work, the way the type supposedly reacts to things. I related to inferior Se because of me being oblivious about my surroundings, Ni because of me being in my head all the time (and also a Ni descrition I read on a pretty good website). I related to the Ni-Ti loop as I struggle with analysis paralysis regulary. I related to the more "lowkey" manifestation of Fe in INFJs. Observing and guiding people rather than baking cookies (bad ISFJ stereotype... it makes me mad). Also I guess for some odd reason I wanted to be an INFJ - which also made me think I am not one, because "real INFJs don't want to be their type". I think the type is just everything I would like to view myself as. I can't even pinpoint why. Maybe I want to be seen as wise and intelligent, having complex thoughts and just overall being special in a way. For a similar reason I was debating if I could be a thinker (INTP) but I think this also comes down to "I want to be logical and smart, because this is worth so much more in my head than talking to people well... because that is something that is expected either way from you. You don't get a cookie for smiling at others and it's not something I can be proud of with myself". Well... writing it out like that makes me feel like I understand why you go with 3 over 6 all of the sudden :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

I distrust this, as well as descriptions of INTJs. INTJs and INFJs are paraded around a lot, except people very frequently slap universal traits onto these two types, causing people to very frequently mistype as either. Take the "Door slam"- frequently toted around to be a very INFJ thing to the point people type as it just because they 'door slam' too. INTJs are "slow to trust"- gee, like other types would trust the first stranger they meet? Or being remotely oriented towards the future at all = suddenly Ni-dom. Being in your head is a typical introvert-lead trait, by the way (Si, Ni, Fi, Ti). What you call analysis paralysis happens frequently with Ps as well- the infamous "there are too many options and I don't know how to choose" of the Ps. A problem with these memes as you can see, again, is that they take generic human traits but slap it onto a specific type. What you mentioned above could be almost anything else in the MBTI system- or even anxiety.

You consistently at least have demonstrated that you value 'e'-style judgement, and since you are F, F + e = Fe. Your Fe is strong enough (with very little to no indication of Fi) + being an introvert = IXFJ, + more Si than Ni + Ne over Ni = ISFJ. The cognition fits, despite you not fitting the 'stereotype' of ISFJ, then again not everybody fits the stereotype of their own type (and one would hope so).

"I think the type is just everything I would like to view myself as. I can't even pinpoint why."
It may help to try flesh this out regardless. What traits seem the most desirable to you in the INFJ, that you feel like you lack and wish you had, stereotypes included? Understanding why you typed as INFJ to begin with at all, even if it may be a mistype, might help shed more light into why this confusion is happening at all.
 

Iceblueblossom

New member
Joined
Jun 25, 2021
Messages
28
MBTI Type
ISFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I'd held back my tongue on it, but it's happened several times now I just have to say it. FJ + 9 really is something, huh.
Happened several times now? Would you mind to elaborate further?

Intuitive- as in, in the MBTI sense, or in the general sense?
I think in both ways, though in this case I meant in the MBTI sense. Though, a part of it, without a doubt, is also the very wrong way sensors are portrayed as in the mbti community. I find it hard to really explain why in retrospect, but it feels like one of the reasons might have been that in my mind I usually come to a conclusion first and don't really think about where it is coming from. For example seeing a friend of mine in a relationship and knowing "this is not going to work" without really analysing it beforehand. Or only realising I did certain observations about the real world and came to conclusions after being asked. It's never been on the forefront of my thoughts but the conclusion I am coming to instantly sound like they have been in my head for a pretty long time. But I guess the main reason was probably me being biased because of 16 personalities and identifying as INFP and having strong Ne explained enough about my problem solving processes that I was satisfied.

If you were given free reign- all the time, money you need- what does your ideal life look like? Why do you 'suck' at maintaining a routine and schedule despite wanting it? What causes you to burn out?
Difficult question. I think I can say for certain that not doing anything and just fooling around would be out of the question. I think if I had unlimited money and time, I would do the things I always dreamed of but couldn't because the jobs are too insecure. I would probably do acting training to become a voice actor, go all out on my current hobbies (get better equipment, hire people to draw stuff for me, compose background music, animate music videos), get singing lessons etc etc. Having a life worth living, full of things I am excited about would be something I would look forward to. I don't think I would ever be as organised as the stereotypical Si dom, but I would fill my days with doing the things I love while also leaving enough space for family, friends and just relaxation.
And what causes me to burn out is a question I tried to figure out in therapy for YEARS and I never came to a solution. If I had to list potential options / parts of the issue:
- If I try to get into a routine, I plan it out too much so if something happens and I can't do what I planned anymore I am irritated
- In a similar way: If I did something every single day but can't do it for a couple days because of circumstances I find it hard to get into it again. I am out of the habit.
- I am bored if I keep doing the things I have to force myself to do on a regular basis. At first the "my life gets objectively better" can keep me motivated but after awhile, when this hype stops, it's a feeling of "why should I bother anymore". Also the thought of "I have to do this every single day now until I die" is really demotivating. It's the reason why I got depressed in university. I was really productive and getting straight A's for the first semester but then realized I have to keep up the same level for the next 5 years... which is where I spiraled down
- Getting distracted by little things, mostly internet- or interest related. I have no problems with unhealthy routines and I boot up my pc every morning. But as soon as I get sucked into the internet and things that excite me hours pass without me noticing and whoops: I wasted another day.
- Me changing my habits to not go online instantly ended up in me not caring anymore or self-sabotaging
- I hate doing things because I have do / I don't want to. My family always described me as stubborn in this regard. My aunt even called me "unteachable" because I kept rebelling during piano lessons. Even if I was the one who said "I want to learn how to play the piano" or "I want to study this subject" - the fact that there is a person who is telling me what to do makes me less excited about it. At the same time, at this point it's hard to make me do something if I am not forced to. I NEED external pressure to get things done otherwise I will just not care or leave projects unfinished.

I'm actually N, but I can't write to save my life. 'Ns are more imaginative' is also one of the bad stereotypes out there- ironic, since it's usually IS-- folks who are called 'The Artists'.
Okay... it's been on my mind for a couple days: are you an INFJ by any chance? You give VERY similar vibes to my previous typer in your way of expression and reasoning. The reasons you provided for some values or opinions seemed very Fe-Ti centric, you didn't seem to use Ne-Si on the other hand, very sure about your claims (or seeming to have a set direction of thoughts from the start) and again, the "IXFJ" communication style you talked about that I seem to have looks very similar to yours in a way hahaha. You also barely use personal examples (except for your ISFJ friend in the last post). Kinda funny. What makes me think though is that you are very detail-oriented in your posts and pick out specific sentences you are referring to.

When you do have to, or better yet, want to pay attention to something, how detail-oriented are you?
I can be very detail-oriented when it comes to assignments, aesthetic things (when I am actually putting together a website or am supposed to evaluate a character design) or, as you can see, my speech. But me being detail-oriented is usually without structure, without direction. It's more of a "I am trying out things until they fit". When learning new things I NEED alot of details in order to understand. If I did something similar before I have fun experimenting but in the context of a job it's different. For example I was working as a cashier for a couple months and needed VERY PRECISE instructions on EVERYTHING to a point when my boss was very frustrated with me. "It should be obvious that you are supposed to do it like that, because it only makes sense that way, why do I need to explain this to you?". Thinking about it, it's the reason my mother was often frustrated with me "I don't need to explain to you why the cups are needed to be arranged this way and not another because it is the most efficient and logical way, why do you not get that". Though I would guess this is me being detail-oriented in more of the theoretical / practical realm than in an aesthetic realm. I don't value clothes that much or little changes in the world around me - because they don't really change my thoughts and goals or the way I am going through my day. I would rather pay attention to what a person is saying than what the person looks like. Though if I am sitting something, listening, I can notice my eyes wonder and "analyze" the world around me, looking at the little details. It doesn't really help me in seeing changes when they occur though.

- Not looking at what is happening around you: the environment, the people? As in, low situational awareness? This alone could possibly be low/no Se instead of necessarily low Si.
Yes, yes and yes. My Se is really bad. Which was more of a reason to type as INFP for me honestly. Though on the other hand it bothers me that people keep mixing "regular" mbti with socionics terms. I might just be an ISFJ EII (EII's having terrible Se). As a disclaimer, I have NO IDEA about socionics, like absolutely none, I just know that tests always type me as EII (without it even being a competition in comparison to the scores of other types) and that mbti really borrowed many of the socionics terms.

- Your thoughts are mostly about your interests and what you would do next: not telling of N/S, just who you are as a person and your preferences. What would be a greater tell is how you act on it. I assume that this is also representative of your free time- aside from workaholics, I doubt people would spend time thinking about things that aren't involved in their interests, or things that are uninteresting to them. I also doubt that this occurs 24/7- when you are working, say, what thoughts fill your mind? You say you think of "what you would do next"- what does this tend to be, and why?
I had a very specific thing in mind when I was saying that but I am not sure if I can recreate. I think a more accurate representation would be "what COULD I do next" or "what SHOULD I do next". One part of it is mentally preparing for tasks I need to do by playing them out in my mind (not something I do too often) or I am thinking about all the plans I have with the things I am passionate about (especially when I am motivated and more healthy - 3 integration says hello). I have a goal in mind, at times I get a sudden strike of motivation out of nowhere, and I feel like I have to act on it. It's like I am running on inspiration. This is the only way I can keep working without outside pressure or deadlines. For example: I recently hit a point where I was extremely frustrated with my success as a content creator (I still am, it's really bad for my self esteem, especially seeing friends of mine getting alot of attention for doing similar content) and all of the sudden I was like "I will change everything about it by working hard" so I went into workaholic mode, started 20 changes / projects at the same time and my thoughts were all about the next change, the next reaction, imagining the impact it will have longterm etc etc. Often I think about this "hobby" (it feels more like a second job at this point) even if I am doing my job as a teacher, which can be very annoying. I would prefer to do one single thing all day, everyday, until I get tired and burned out of that thing and want to move on again.

If I am working I usually start with brainstorming, having a general idea of what I will do. Depending on whether it is something complex or just a "I will record a song" I will either outline a structure on paper or just start with it. Depending on what I do this can be where the issues can already start. I think one big issue that I have is for example planning lessons for my classes. I'm pretty fast to come up with ideas - but even faster and turning them down. I instantly imagine the lesson playing out, and can see "okay, this and this will go wrong" "this is not applicable to reality" "this doesn't make any sense" "my students will react like this and that" "the people who will evaluate my lessons will critisize xy" but I never know how to change it. So I come up with more ideas, throw them away, come up with another one, throw it away - and it continues. If I find pieces that I feel like could lead somewhere I keep them and try to build a lesson that way. But it's really hard to come up with a concept for a lesson. When I started teaching, it took me, no joke, AT LEAST 3 hours to come up with someone proper. Actually making it work, preparing the material, the powerpoint and planning the details is very easy for me on the other hand. Because I already got rid of the ideas where I thought I am not able to execute on them I end up doing things I am pretty sure I can handle. And especially if I did something similar before it's only a matter of applying known concepts to a new situation - which is, again, fairly easy to me. I think this is why I also like my hobby very much. It's alot about jumping right in and just doing, without the long planning process that makes me not wanna do the thing in the first place. I am not sure if this is what you were looking for when you asked but might still be very insightful for you.

Aside from anxiety, what do you actually relate to about a 6's motivations and how they work?
I think I will just do a list for this one:
- I don't trust my own brain and unless I get the confirmation from someone that I am on the right path or someone tells me the answer to some degree, I will always doubt myself
- Security is REALLY important to me. I would never do something where there is a chance that it might cause me harm in any way. Having a solid ground for the future (a place to live, enough money, stable job) are very important to me and makes me feel more at ease
- I can really easily see what could go wrong about any situation, even if it's not on my mind constantly. It's not always me being afraid though, it's just a "why should I do it in the first place if it has a chance to go wrong / fail?"
- There is this very deep deep seated feeling of wanting to be warmy protected. Someone who can keep me away from the unpredictable life, where I can fall back to, where I don't need to be afraid any longer. This is something I searched for in the few crushes that I had in the past too. I remember thinking "they can protect me, they can save me".
- I am terrified of moving out because it would mean having to deal with lifes ups and downs all alone and I don't know if I am able to handle the world (and I am 26, I am not a teen anymore)

I think this description is hitting the nail on the head 100% and I wasn't able to describe it better:
"As Naranjo clarifies, "not trusting themselves enough, they feel alone and incapable without outside support." Self-Preservation Sixes want to feel the embrace of the family, to be in a warm, protected place where there are no enemies. They search for an "idealized other" for protection, and they can have issues that look like separation anxiety. Like a child who needs to hold on to the mother, these Sixes don't feel confident in defending their own self-interests and survival."

That being said, what do you mean by "I have literally no insights"- what are 'insights' to you?
Having some ways to look at life, explaining life through overarching concepts that you were coming up with. While I have opinions and insights obviously, I don't really feel like I spend my time coming to some ultimate truth or making sense of reality / finding some underlying principle. I just go on with my life and come to conclusions that are usually not verbalized and I don't feel like talking about. Also it's probably things that most people already know, well-known concepts that most people realize exist. I don't come up with anything original in my opinion that would be worth writing a book about. So by that definition: no, I don't need anyone who would listen to my insights, because saying "relationships need communication or they will fail" is not an insight, it's an observation and was also backed up by research probably.

It may help to try flesh this out regardless. What traits seem the most desirable to you in the INFJ, that you feel like you lack and wish you had, stereotypes included? Understanding why you typed as INFJ to begin with at all, even if it may be a mistype, might help shed more light into why this confusion is happening at all.
I will give it a thought!
 

Arcturus

witching hour
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Messages
4,620
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
648
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Happened several times now? Would you mind to elaborate further?

Would be a hassle to pore through every big paragraph that you've posted, but another example is this one:
No, I understand! [reassurance #1] It's not something you absolutely have to see [reassurance #2]. I just thought it might help you [explaining yourself, another form of reassuring- #3] in case you are one of those people who can type based off of tone of the voice or anything like that. If it doesn't add anything for you, we don't have to do it! [reassurance #4, complete with the upbeat upturn of phrase to make absolutely sure you are being as friendly as possible and that 'really, there's no need for you to worry about anything, it's all good']

So many, in one paragraph. Incredible. For context, if it were me, I would have said something like,
"Alright."
I hope this doesn't make you self-conscious. It's very helpful for those who need it. But me, personally, I don't, so you can relax.


I think in both ways, though in this case I meant in the MBTI sense. Though, a part of it, without a doubt, is also the very wrong way sensors are portrayed as in the mbti community. I find it hard to really explain why in retrospect, but it feels like one of the reasons might have been that in my mind I usually come to a conclusion first and don't really think about where it is coming from. For example seeing a friend of mine in a relationship and knowing "this is not going to work" without really analysing it beforehand. Or only realising I did certain observations about the real world and came to conclusions after being asked. It's never been on the forefront of my thoughts but the conclusion I am coming to instantly sound like they have been in my head for a pretty long time. But I guess the main reason was probably me being biased because of 16 personalities and identifying as INFP and having strong Ne explained enough about my problem solving processes that I was satisfied.

Yeah, that's the mundane sense of intuition right there, not the MBTI-sense. What might help is to understand why you think it will not work- it will show you how you think (which is cognition- which is what MBTI is) rather than what you think (which is just data).

Have you ever watched Star Trek? Kirk is quite clearly ESTP, but he works based off 'hunches' or what many might even call 'intuition'. There's no obvious way of seeing that what he does would work out, but it does anyway (albeit in an extremely brash, risky manner). That doesn't mean he's IN-J, or EN-P. Rest assured that 'having gut feelings' (or intuition, or whatever you want to call it) is quite universal, 'even', in high-S, low N folks.

That being said, I noticed that your first example of your 'gut feelings' is about relationships. I'm high N low S (dichotomy wise, and people joke I have no S sometimes) and I ... would be blind where you were. People tend to be able to observe and notice things better if it relates to things they are interested/involved in. That's just human.

It baffles me how many of the universal traits of humans, but especially the 'cooler' ones, get shoved all into the N camp- and especially the INXJs. Crazy.


Difficult question. I think I can say for certain that not doing anything and just fooling around would be out of the question. I think if I had unlimited money and time, I would do the things I always dreamed of but couldn't because the jobs are too insecure. I would probably do acting training to become a voice actor, go all out on my current hobbies (get better equipment, hire people to draw stuff for me, compose background music, animate music videos), get singing lessons etc etc. Having a life worth living, full of things I am excited about would be something I would look forward to. I don't think I would ever be as organised as the stereotypical Si dom, but I would fill my days with doing the things I love while also leaving enough space for family, friends and just relaxation.

Types aside, it looks like you do have direction, but have difficulties in keeping focused to achieve it. It's a bit reminiscent of -P in that you are focused on the process of things (that you enjoy the process, not the end result, but that itself is not entirely telling- some people would indeed just want to enjoy life and not endlessly chase goals, even Js, though stereotype says otherwise), but also a bit reminiscent of -S in that a lot of what you want to do is quite experiental/'concrete' in nature. Your idea of a 'life worth living' is one that is quite immersed in S-like experiences- being in touch with the concrete, the 'real', the world. The fact you are not organised enough for it is a red herring, especially if the reason for it is tied to things you have no control over (anxiety/whatever you are going to the therapist for, etc).

Of course, this is not concretely 100% N or S. Surely there are high Ns out there who are similar, but again- it's a spectrum, a sliding scale, and this adds another point towards S.


And what causes me to burn out is a question I tried to figure out in therapy for YEARS and I never came to a solution. If I had to list potential options / parts of the issue:
- If I try to get into a routine, I plan it out too much so if something happens and I can't do what I planned anymore I am irritated

I almost want to laugh. I am not surprised. I suspected this might be a part of it. Rest assured, even Js would burn out at this. It's not a new story at all of someone who likes planning, overplans to the point they suck all the joy out of everything for themselves. It's not an uncommon J pitfall by the way- of essentially planning too much, being so inflexible that change makes it all crumble. That's classic J over P right there, if anything. Not all Ps do this, but very high Ps tend to be more open-ended and forgiving of deviations, generally. I wish that were not true, but I've been blindsided, secondhand irritated by many a P for whom deviations are 'no big deal'. That being said-

J or not, it is clear that you are not 'planning' things in a way that is sustainable or even healthy for yourself. The information of who you are is concealed, distorted by this. Once you are able to find something that works well for yourself, once your 'healthier self' shines through, then we could have an easier time typing her. But I hope that this line of questioning shows you how important it is to figure out the underlying cognition behind something- the 'how', not just the 'what'. Your data (the "what") was superficially P- "I can't hold down plans."- but the cognition behind the why is strongly, even hilariously J.


- In a similar way: If I did something every single day but can't do it for a couple days because of circumstances I find it hard to get into it again. I am out of the habit.

The ISFJ friend I mentioned is similar. Interestingly, she needs therapy as well- she's mildly autistic, among other things. If she gets blindsided/if her 'train of thought'/train of work' gets interrupted, she has a hard time restarting it. The point is, she wants to, and wants to maintain it. Her preferences were J, but extenuating circumstances cause her to be a bit 'chaotic'.


- I am bored if I keep doing the things I have to force myself to do on a regular basis. At first the "my life gets objectively better" can keep me motivated but after awhile, when this hype stops, it's a feeling of "why should I bother anymore". Also the thought of "I have to do this every single day now until I die" is really demotivating. It's the reason why I got depressed in university. I was really productive and getting straight A's for the first semester but then realized I have to keep up the same level for the next 5 years... which is where I spiraled down

This much is beyond MBTI. As mentioned above, even Js can burn out in this manner- anyone, really. Anyone who feels like they are doing something meaningless or wasting their time would burn out eventually. This could be an issue of you not figuring out what you want to commit to yet, or perhaps something else- who knows. It will be hard to type the person when the person is buried under stress and behaving in ways they otherwise wouldn't have. Something to bring up with your therapist, if you haven't yet.


- Getting distracted by little things, mostly internet- or interest related. I have no problems with unhealthy routines and I boot up my pc every morning. But as soon as I get sucked into the internet and things that excite me hours pass without me noticing and whoops: I wasted another day. - Me changing my habits to not go online instantly ended up in me not caring anymore or self-sabotaging

This one is just human. Escapism tends to happen more frequently for people under stress. And think of it like this- escapism is not a cure, it's a band-aid. Rip it off without another band-aid to take its place, and you will bleed, and perhaps even get infected. This applies to everyone- not just any specific type. An analogy; drug addicts. Drugs are bad, so why do we not make them go cold turkey? Because it will give their system a shock. They could actually end up dying. There was a need that the drug fulfilled, and for it to stop suddenly, the body can freak out. If you cut yourself cold turkey, it can be... bad, to say the least.

This is not telling of MBTI, this just tells me you were stressed and lacked proper outlets, something that is universal. People need things to give them a reason to have hope, to go on. It's not just your body that needs feeding, but the mind and emotions as well. Have it starve, and it will behave unpredictably, stop working properly. Not type related, but read this: [link] Of course, ideally, you get better outlets, but when people have no choice, they take what they can get. Starving people would eat even rotten food.

Before knowing why this happens at all, I would hesitate using this information to type someone- typing someone's stress patterns can help yield light on their type, but everyone copes differently, even if they have the same MBTI. Especially if it gets to the point of pathology- that's just not MBTI anymore. Some I-TJs become workaholics, some become abusive arses who drink their money away. Can't type that.

Another analogy; everyone screams when they break their bones. They may flail, or go blank, get very angry, get very sad, but point is: they are behaving out of character. Sure, a person who was angry by nature would perhaps be more likely to get angry than cry, say, but even then there's no guarantee. It would not make sense to make guesses on who they are based off of that, and is why I hesitate to type someone when they are mired in ... stress, or things out of their control. Some claim they can, but really- I cannot see how it could make sense.


- I hate doing things because I have do / I don't want to. My family always described me as stubborn in this regard. My aunt even called me "unteachable" because I kept rebelling during piano lessons. Even if I was the one who said "I want to learn how to play the piano" or "I want to study this subject" - the fact that there is a person who is telling me what to do makes me less excited about it. At the same time, at this point it's hard to make me do something if I am not forced to. I NEED external pressure to get things done otherwise I will just not care or leave projects unfinished.

This is a point towards P, but again, it is partially extenuating circumstance. Need to know why you end up doing this even if it was something you asked for. Me, personally- I did something similar, but only because I hated the music I was made the play (old classical things... ugh), I hated how I was made to play it, I hated that my teacher dictated which piece I would play / master next. Imagine if someone barged in on your hobbies and told you how to do it- you'd rebel, too. So I would need to know why you ended up having to be forced.

(For what it's worth, once I was able to learn on my own- at my pace, where I wanted, when I wanted, what I wanted- I mastered a high-level piano score in 1 month. Even my ex-teacher was shocked.)

How do you work when it's something you enjoy? How much more organised will you be, if you are not stressed, if you have the resources you need? That will paint a fuller picture of how your cognition works as a whole, not just under duress (when you are forced to do things in ways you don't want to). Granted, there is the argument that Js are responsible enough to do what they had to do without much fuss anyway, but you have listed several things that indicate to me that you are under quite a lot of stress and anxiety, so I wouldn't make any final conclusions based off just this. If you mentally really under are a baseline of burnout (and what you have written strongly indicates it), that could explain why you do this, not that you are J or P.


Okay... it's been on my mind for a couple days: are you an INFJ by any chance? You give VERY similar vibes to my previous typer in your way of expression and reasoning. The reasons you provided for some values or opinions seemed very Fe-Ti centric, you didn't seem to use Ne-Si on the other hand, very sure about your claims (or seeming to have a set direction of thoughts from the start) and again, the "IXFJ" communication style you talked about that I seem to have looks very similar to yours in a way hahaha. You also barely use personal examples (except for your ISFJ friend in the last post). Kinda funny. What makes me think though is that you are very detail-oriented in your posts and pick out specific sentences you are referring to.

No. Not even Fe. INTJ, though some type me ENTJ (like how your N/S axis is your most undifferentiated one so far, for me, that is the E/I axis- cognitively. I'm no party animal and no one who knows me would call me a social person).

I've been told I have tact. It's something I have made the effort to practice. I had mistyped as INFJ for a while, so while I may not understand fully where you are coming from, your conclusions are not entirely new or shocking.


I can be very detail-oriented when it comes to assignments, aesthetic things (when I am actually putting together a website or am supposed to evaluate a character design) or, as you can see, my speech. But me being detail-oriented is usually without structure, without direction. It's more of a "I am trying out things until they fit". When learning new things I NEED alot of details in order to understand. If I did something similar before I have fun experimenting but in the context of a job it's different. For example I was working as a cashier for a couple months and needed VERY PRECISE instructions on EVERYTHING to a point when my boss was very frustrated with me. "It should be obvious that you are supposed to do it like that, because it only makes sense that way, why do I need to explain this to you?". Thinking about it, it's the reason my mother was often frustrated with me "I don't need to explain to you why the cups are needed to be arranged this way and not another because it is the most efficient and logical way, why do you not get that". Though I would guess this is me being detail-oriented in more of the theoretical / practical realm than in an aesthetic realm. I don't value clothes that much or little changes in the world around me - because they don't really change my thoughts and goals or the way I am going through my day. I would rather pay attention to what a person is saying than what the person looks like. Though if I am sitting something, listening, I can notice my eyes wonder and "analyze" the world around me, looking at the little details. It doesn't really help me in seeing changes when they occur though.

People usually do things that come easier to them, and if your cognition is indeed S, this is another point towards it as well- you work better with 'concrete/S-style data'. Not that Ns can't be artistic, of course. It's another point towards S, but a very small one.

"I don't value clothes that much or little changes in the world around me - because they don't really change my thoughts and goals or the way I am going through my day." - I remember you mentioning this before. If we went based off this 100%, it stereotypically means low S- but it wasn't that you had low S, it's that your S was being used elsewhere. For what it's worth, the type of data you need seems to be related to a procedural type of thinking I associate with J. If you understand how things go, you can plan things out. If you plan things out, you can have just what you wanted- that tends to be J.

As for the without structure or direction, trying things till they fit- they seem to be related to creative things, which... Well, that's just how a lot of creativity works. You are being structured where you have to be, and being flexible where you have to be. That much doesn't strongly point to either J or P, at least for me. Everyone's creative process is different- and some may even be 50-50. For myself, I like coding CSS at times, and I like planning out what the end result looks like. But when I draw/paint, I don't.

One thing though. You say you go to the therapist. You needing 'very specific instructions' that 'should be obvious' are signalling a few possibilities to me; either your bosses and your family are all jerks, and/or this is related to why you are needing a therapist and why you are burnt out. It's not certain, but this is a part of a tell-tale sign that someone may have a certain- for eg, cognitive disorder, such as autism or ADHD or the likes of it. Could be mild enough to escape detection, but enough to be 'disruptive' to the point of... Well. Needing 'very specific instructions that should be obvious'. Sometimes, it even results in over-planning to compensate for missing things that 'should be obvious', so that's another sign right there which... It's forming a pattern. I'm not saying you have it, or have any at all, but this is so specific and is usually a tell that something is wrong. If you haven't brought it up with your therapist, perhaps do so and give your therapist examples.


Yes, yes and yes. My Se is really bad. Which was more of a reason to type as INFP for me honestly. Though on the other hand it bothers me that people keep mixing "regular" mbti with socionics terms. I might just be an ISFJ EII (EII's having terrible Se). As a disclaimer, I have NO IDEA about socionics, like absolutely none, I just know that tests always type me as EII (without it even being a competition in comparison to the scores of other types) and that mbti really borrowed many of the socionics terms.

Socionics is quite different from MBTI, by the way. Their Se is closer to MBTI's Te than Se (not exact, but it's closer to Te than Se). Willpower, forcefulness, and the willingness to push around and shape the world around you. No surprise you scored low Se for socionics, but it doesn't necessarily mean you have low MBTI-Se. Due to the definitions of socionics Se and how it works, even an IS-P (especially an E9 one, I'd imagine) can score rock bottom socionics-Se.

"The individual feels at home among people who are actively doing something and interacting with each other directly (visibly), and is able to organize people, move them around as necessary, and guide them in achieving a specific goal. He or she likes obedience and even subservience in others, since it allows him to "make things happen" more effectively. He is keenly aware of territorial conflicts and confrontational behavior occurring around him. He very quickly becomes confrontational when others try to make him move or get him to do something in an aggressive or confrontational way. He quickly recognizes when people are trying to get each other to do something or are trying to organize him for some purpose. He also spontaneously uses aggression to achieve his own goals."

Not necessarily INFP, though. And while I do not know how much of 'Se' really is situational awareness (I know Ns with good situational awareness), ISFJ also has no Se. And, if the pattern holds true, if you do have something like ADHD or the like, you could have all the Se in the world and still not notice things and 'need very specific instructions that should be obvious'- it's obvious that even in circumstances where you want to be alert, you have a hard time doing so. Hard to tell if this is truly low Se or extenuating factors (could even just be stress). Se is also not just situational awareness but also being primarily engaged with the world around you, among other things- if you are an introvert lead (be it Si or Fi), you would not be. Careful- to judge how much Se you have based off one aspect of it is like saying that you're not an introvert because you have friends and try be aware of social dynamics.

Also, if you work artistic details very well, that also lends to Se. It means that your 'situational awareness' is selective, which is normal. Put an IS-J who hates fashion in a fashion show and ask them what they think of the dresses. You probably wouldn't be surprised that they don't remember.


I had a very specific thing in mind when I was saying that but I am not sure if I can recreate. I think a more accurate representation would be "what COULD I do next" or "what SHOULD I do next". One part of it is mentally preparing for tasks I need to do by playing them out in my mind (not something I do too often) or I am thinking about all the plans I have with the things I am passionate about (especially when I am motivated and more healthy - 3 integration says hello). I have a goal in mind, at times I get a sudden strike of motivation out of nowhere, and I feel like I have to act on it. It's like I am running on inspiration. This is the only way I can keep working without outside pressure or deadlines. For example: I recently hit a point where I was extremely frustrated with my success as a content creator (I still am, it's really bad for my self esteem, especially seeing friends of mine getting alot of attention for doing similar content) and all of the sudden I was like "I will change everything about it by working hard" so I went into workaholic mode, started 20 changes / projects at the same time and my thoughts were all about the next change, the next reaction, imagining the impact it will have longterm etc etc. Often I think about this "hobby" (it feels more like a second job at this point) even if I am doing my job as a teacher, which can be very annoying. I would prefer to do one single thing all day, everyday, until I get tired and burned out of that thing and want to move on again.

Could be -P- they can be whimsical, or could be related to why you have this cyclical burnout- I hesitate to say for certain because to label it as P is to say that this is just how things work and is a form of 'normal' instead of digging deeper and fixing what might be wrong- mislabelling it can be a bit dangerous here. This isn't just any ordinary trait here, it seems like something you have a hard time controlling. For what it's worth, it scans less as whimsical P and more that you may be under stress- the indicators for me is that you don't want to be this way but seem to cannot help but ending up doing it anyway.

It's not a whimsical choice, it's not fun, it's not your 'ideal you', and it's mentally and emotionally hurtful (harmful, even). Again, typology isn't pathology. To say it is is to imply that certain types are innately 'unhealthy' or dysfunctional, which, they are not. Don't get tunnel-visioned into thinking about what type this might be and focus instead on how to fix it- typology can be an unhealthy focus for people trying to figure out what's wrong with them- I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but especially if you aren't yet, don't fall into that trap. Even healthy, happy Ps don't do this, aren't like this.


If I am working I usually start with brainstorming, having a general idea of what I will do. Depending on whether it is something complex or just a "I will record a song" I will either outline a structure on paper or just start with it. Depending on what I do this can be where the issues can already start. I think one big issue that I have is for example planning lessons for my classes. I'm pretty fast to come up with ideas - but even faster and turning them down. I instantly imagine the lesson playing out, and can see "okay, this and this will go wrong" "this is not applicable to reality" "this doesn't make any sense" "my students will react like this and that" "the people who will evaluate my lessons will critisize xy" but I never know how to change it. So I come up with more ideas, throw them away, come up with another one, throw it away - and it continues. If I find pieces that I feel like could lead somewhere I keep them and try to build a lesson that way. But it's really hard to come up with a concept for a lesson. When I started teaching, it took me, no joke, AT LEAST 3 hours to come up with someone proper. Actually making it work, preparing the material, the powerpoint and planning the details is very easy for me on the other hand. Because I already got rid of the ideas where I thought I am not able to execute on them I end up doing things I am pretty sure I can handle. And especially if I did something similar before it's only a matter of applying known concepts to a new situation - which is, again, fairly easy to me. I think this is why I also like my hobby very much. It's alot about jumping right in and just doing, without the long planning process that makes me not wanna do the thing in the first place. I am not sure if this is what you were looking for when you asked but might still be very insightful for you.

This does sound -J- due to the preference of having a 'working standardised system' which is well, quite Je in general (Te, Fe). The problem you have is in the system-building, but even E-TJs don't always come up with a system right in the blink of an eye, on the spot. The fact that you keep sifting through it, discarding ideas, and trying to build what you can with what works sounds Pi-Je (Ni/Si + Te/Fe)- especially with you realising that it's not applicable to reality, or being cognisant of how your students will react- again, extraverted judgment- Te/Fe, specifically Fe- it focuses a lot on a system of people, whereas Fi/Te can be a bit unwittingly tone deaf, with Te forgetting to consider people as being a part of the system if anything (ah, their infamous lack of empathy) while it comes naturally to you, if not being one of the main focus, if not being the main focus. There is so much Je + F that comes up so naturally, I cannot see you as Fi-dom.

"When I started teaching, it took me, no joke, AT LEAST 3 hours to come up with someone proper." - are you kidding me? (And I assume you mean something, not someone)
Are you saying this is slow in your industry/your style of teaching? Teachers can spend hours poring through subject matters, books, and constructing a curriculum- especially if they're freestyling (for eg, in an institution, or with private tutors). I've taught before and I and the other teachers can spend hours together discussing our students and cobbling together something for them. You did this ALONE? In THREE HOURS?

"And especially if I did something similar before it's only a matter of applying known concepts to a new situation - which is, again, fairly easy to me."
You just defined Si. I gotta tell you, this is hard for me. It's difficult to explain to me how, but this is one of the things I find most difficult to do. Is why I am so glad for my Si-dom friends, they do this so easily that I don't have to do it myself that I can focus on other things instead. My brain seems to do literally everything except for applying known/past concepts to a new situation. It can be nerve-wracking to people because it's new, but it's my strength and I manage. Your strength on the other hand, lies in these 'known concepts'. You really just defined Si. The fact it 'comes easily' to you just seals it for me- you have higher Si.

No wonder you are nitpicky when system-building. Once you build it right you can access it and use it again easily. That's classic Si + J, or IS-J. Putting this into context, the fact you take a lot of time and have difficulty creating a new system at first makes sense and doesn't detract from J at all. It's still very J.


I think I will just do a list for this one:
- I don't trust my own brain and unless I get the confirmation from someone that I am on the right path or someone tells me the answer to some degree, I will always doubt myself

Again, Je cognition (Te, Fe) - 'extraverted' judgement- extraverted in the sense that you value and are proficient, and prefer judging with/using external information.


- Security is REALLY important to me. I would never do something where there is a chance that it might cause me harm in any way. Having a solid ground for the future (a place to live, enough money, stable job) are very important to me and makes me feel more at ease

I'd put this more as sp-dom than any MBTI. To tie this to MBTI is to ask 'how'- do you do it in an N way, S way, J way P way- do you judge its effectiveness using Je (Te, Fe) or Ji (Ti, Fi), etc. Already covered this much above- you seem to use S to do this.


- I can really easily see what could go wrong about any situation, even if it's not on my mind constantly. It's not always me being afraid though, it's just a "why should I do it in the first place if it has a chance to go wrong / fail?"

Enneagram-wise, head triad influence. Not enough to tell conclusively 5, 6, or 7, but combine with everything else (attachment tendencies, no 5 traits, no 7 traits) and yes, this is 6. Your 9 and 3 does still seem higher- 6 seems to be employed in addition to 9, not as the 'main goal', if that makes sense. MBTI-wise, could be tied to the 'procedural' way Js assess things- they want to list and draft things out so things can go smoothly, so naturally they'd want to be watchful and on the lookout for anything that may sabotage it.

Not that Ps don't do this, but with Js it tends to just be a part of their cognition- which it seems to be, with you saying it happens easily, even if it's not on your mind constantly. For people for whom this isn't natural- some of the more chaotic Ps, perhaps- they can learn this, but it tends to be a very manual thing they have to manually invoke. For it to happen easily, even passively- it's a sign it's a part of your natural cognition.


- There is this very deep deep seated feeling of wanting to be warmy protected. Someone who can keep me away from the unpredictable life, where I can fall back to, where I don't need to be afraid any longer. This is something I searched for in the few crushes that I had in the past too. I remember thinking "they can protect me, they can save me".
- I am terrified of moving out because it would mean having to deal with lifes ups and downs all alone and I don't know if I am able to handle the world (and I am 26, I am not a teen anymore)

I think this description is hitting the nail on the head 100% and I wasn't able to describe it better:
"As Naranjo clarifies, "not trusting themselves enough, they feel alone and incapable without outside support." Self-Preservation Sixes want to feel the embrace of the family, to be in a warm, protected place where there are no enemies. They search for an "idealized other" for protection, and they can have issues that look like separation anxiety. Like a child who needs to hold on to the mother, these Sixes don't feel confident in defending their own self-interests and survival."

MBTI-wise- nah, this one is just human preference. But yes, Enneagram wise, the 'I don't know if I am able to handle the world on my own' tends to be an indicator of withdrawn triad (4, 5, or 9)- they tend to feel incompetent against the world, and attachment influence (3, 6, 9) tends to also have that feeling that they 'can't do it alone', that they're too small for it, that they need support. Withdrawn + Attachment = 9, backed by 3, backed by 6. Your primary motivations are still overall mostly 9.


Having some ways to look at life, explaining life through overarching concepts that you were coming up with. While I have opinions and insights obviously, I don't really feel like I spend my time coming to some ultimate truth or making sense of reality / finding some underlying principle. I just go on with my life and come to conclusions that are usually not verbalized and I don't feel like talking about. Also it's probably things that most people already know, well-known concepts that most people realize exist. I don't come up with anything original in my opinion that would be worth writing a book about. So by that definition: no, I don't need anyone who would listen to my insights, because saying "relationships need communication or they will fail" is not an insight, it's an observation and was also backed up by research probably.

I will give it a thought!

Bolded- I would say that this is a strong strike against N and Ni both, but especially Ni. Ni's cognition tends to be about finding underlying principles, connections, concepts at its core- the Ni individual may focus on different topics (some may want to understand the underlying concepts of how science works, some do it in psychology, some in religion, etc) but it's all about the knee-jerk, 'finding underlying concepts'. This doesn't mean they will get accurate insight- they may go wack-crazy and delve into weird, esoteric theories that don't make sense, but it's still telling of their cognition and the type of information they engage in. I do this naturally and it's not manual at all, it just happens. It's not even about my liking or not liking it, it's just how my brain works, the same way your eyes just see- you don't want it to you don't will it to, it just does, it just is. I don't know how to not do it.

The rest is universal gut feelings, as well as 'observation backed up by research'. Si tends to be very good at this- the kind of 'underlying principles' they are good at. Finding tried and true principles that work. They can be obvious, yes, but they are also reliable, concrete, realistic- a part of their strength, and pairs well with your being alert to how things can go wrong. Don't shortchange yourself- it can still be regarded as insight, it can still be insightful, it's just not MBTI-Ni. That being said, I am more certain now of ISFJ for you.
 

Iceblueblossom

New member
Joined
Jun 25, 2021
Messages
28
MBTI Type
ISFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Would be a hassle to pore through every big paragraph that you've posted, but another example is this one:
No, I understand! [reassurance #1] It's not something you absolutely have to see [reassurance #2]. I just thought it might help you [explaining yourself, another form of reassuring- #3] in case you are one of those people who can type based off of tone of the voice or anything like that. If it doesn't add anything for you, we don't have to do it! [reassurance #4, complete with the upbeat upturn of phrase to make absolutely sure you are being as friendly as possible and that 'really, there's no need for you to worry about anything, it's all good']

So many, in one paragraph. Incredible. For context, if it were me, I would have said something like,
"Alright."
I hope this doesn't make you self-conscious. It's very helpful for those who need it. But me, personally, I don't, so you can relax.
No, it doesn't make me self-conscious, I am just surprised that I wasn't aware I was doing this. Yes, I was saying to myself "okay, I probably need to add something like this" but didn't really plan what exactly I will say / put in. Interesting!

How do you work when it's something you enjoy? How much more organised will you be, if you are not stressed, if you have the resources you need? That will paint a fuller picture of how your cognition works as a whole, not just under duress (when you are forced to do things in ways you don't want to). Granted, there is the argument that Js are responsible enough to do what they had to do without much fuss anyway, but you have listed several things that indicate to me that you are under quite a lot of stress and anxiety, so I wouldn't make any final conclusions based off just this. If you mentally really under are a baseline of burnout (and what you have written strongly indicates it), that could explain why you do this, not that you are J or P.
I will be honest, it's been awhile since I wasn't stressed or feeling burned out. The last time I felt more or less emotionally stable was at the start of university, over 6 years ago. And even school time, where I was feeling more "fresh in the head" I was getting bullied and had difficulties that could have influenced my behaviour. For what it's worth though when it comes to hobbies, even as a child and teen, I had the issue of having too many ideas, making huge goals (writing a novel), working for months on the same thing - only to have a new idea that I would replace my old one with. It's pretty telling that despite writing stories every single day for years I finished only a single one - and with the one I finished I realised that I had alot of plotholes I needed to close during the last chapter. The story didn't feel complete but I always had this feeling of "I want to finish a story at least ONCE". Alot of my "I have high Ne" claims that led to me typing myself as INFP originally was my childhood and early teen years. I really miss those times when I could just charge into a hobby and do it without thinking of whether I can deliver a masterpiece. I could start writing, have the feeling I get into a flow experience, every sentence is writing itself and I am just living life like I am supposed to. Coming up with new ideas and what should happen next was so easy for me. I think it changed after I was showing my stories off in a forum like this one and got alot of feedback (not only good one). The feedback was good and understandable, but made me proof-read every sentence and make sure it is written in the perfect way and in a way that OTHERS would like it. As soon as I started to write for others instead of myself I really lost interest in writing and it became more frustrating. A few years ago I tried to get into writing again and built a whole world I could get into. The more I planned though the more I wanted to make this "the best thing ever" again. And I never continued. This is why I love recording songs - I can get into it for a couple days and then move on to the next project without having to be consistent with my output. I wouldn't been able to do this thing for 13 years now otherwise. I think the "I get inspiration and work really hard for it for a couple of days before I drop it" is more natural to me than working on a single thing for months or even years. I think being consistent and working hard are things that were important as I was raised (and even now). Those were the values that were most important for my mother. I wouldn't be surprised if a good chunk of the tendencies I have now is me trying to be someone I am not. Even though I will be honest, I still LOVE planning itself. I love using my planner and setting up goals. I am just not good and not enjoying actually putting them into practise. But honestly, even considering the chance I am P instead of J, I wouldn't know what other type with Fe would even be fitting. Not that I would be able to tell honestly in my current state of mind.

One thing though. You say you go to the therapist. You needing 'very specific instructions' that 'should be obvious' are signalling a few possibilities to me; either your bosses and your family are all jerks, and/or this is related to why you are needing a therapist and why you are burnt out. It's not certain, but this is a part of a tell-tale sign that someone may have a certain- for eg, cognitive disorder, such as autism or ADHD or the likes of it. Could be mild enough to escape detection, but enough to be 'disruptive' to the point of... Well. Needing 'very specific instructions that should be obvious'. Sometimes, it even results in over-planning to compensate for missing things that 'should be obvious', so that's another sign right there which... It's forming a pattern. I'm not saying you have it, or have any at all, but this is so specific and is usually a tell that something is wrong. If you haven't brought it up with your therapist, perhaps do so and give your therapist examples.
Funny you are mentioning it. I think it might be a bit of both. First things first: I am not in therapy anymore. I had my last session a month ago and now I need to do a little break before I can sign up for therapy again. Either way, one of the main things I discussed in therapy was my family situation and it being very toxic in general. In typical 9 fashion I didn't realise that the situation at home is not normal but seeing the reaction of everyone else in the group and of my therapist, them urging me to move out as soon as possible and them having a need to "save me" was... interesting to say the least. I don't know if it's really as bad as I made it sound, as obviously, I was only talking about the bad things at home instead of the things that are actually going well. But yeah, the people around me being jerks is not entirely wrong. And I had two bosses who were very strict to me as well, other bosses were confused on the other hand why I was anxious about doing things wrong or not understanding something immediately after something was explained. People have very different expectations from others and depending on that I either got along with my bosses just fine or not at all. I am always doing my job properly however as soon as I get the hang of it - at times more accurately than my co-workers. But I can be pretty slow at the start. About me possibly being neurodivergent: it's also not a new suggestion. I was crying alot about my performance and productivity issues on discord servers and people reached out to me saying I REALLY should get checked out for ADHD as they are diagnosed with it and I am lining up with alot of the common experiences that they went through. So I started to do alooot of research on ADHD, especially in women, resonanted with alot of it, but not all of it. My therapist told me "usually people with ADHD are diagnosed in childhood and also you don't look like you have ADHD" so that was done. I tried to get evaluated here as well, but in Germany it's really hard to find someone who can evaluate you unless you pay alot of money or get super lucky after waiting in a waitingling for YEARS (and the waitinglist is closed at the moment). In my city only ONE psychologist is doing professional ADHD evaluation that is covered by my type of insurance and as you can imagine it's next to impossible to get there. I will try to aim for that institution as my goal for my next therapy but yeah, chances are slim. Also I am not sure how much of it is really ADHD and how much of it are just symptoms of depression - since both of it overlaps. About autism... I thought about it, especially since I had alot of issues with social interaction as a kid, but I don't have any sensory processing issues (not that I am aware) which makes up alot of the autism experience. Ofc either ADHD or autism could be mild in my case and there are a few pointers towards it that seem to be very telling (for example me doing stimming / hand flapping) but getting evaluated is next to impossible at the moment. So I am just keeping my eyes open for that waiting list...

Could be -P- they can be whimsical, or could be related to why you have this cyclical burnout- I hesitate to say for certain because to label it as P is to say that this is just how things work and is a form of 'normal' instead of digging deeper and fixing what might be wrong- mislabelling it can be a bit dangerous here. This isn't just any ordinary trait here, it seems like something you have a hard time controlling. For what it's worth, it scans less as whimsical P and more that you may be under stress- the indicators for me is that you don't want to be this way but seem to cannot help but ending up doing it anyway.

It's not a whimsical choice, it's not fun, it's not your 'ideal you', and it's mentally and emotionally hurtful (harmful, even). Again, typology isn't pathology. To say it is is to imply that certain types are innately 'unhealthy' or dysfunctional, which, they are not. Don't get tunnel-visioned into thinking about what type this might be and focus instead on how to fix it- typology can be an unhealthy focus for people trying to figure out what's wrong with them- I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but especially if you aren't yet, don't fall into that trap. Even healthy, happy Ps don't do this, aren't like this.
Very important of you to say that. I think since from my mother or from strict professors I heard that pretty often, especially in university, that I "purposefully" do things at the last minute, I start to believe that too. When in reality, I would love to finish things earlier and be more regulated - I just can do it though whenever I start something new that is exciting to me. It is honestly frustrating and my life would be a whole deal easier if I would either do things more consistently or not care as much about whether I get things done a "proper" way. Even though I tried not caring in the best, it's this underlying anxiety of "I still need to get stuff done" that is really draining. Knowing whether I have ADHD or just have poor memory and focus because of depression would really be helpful.

"When I started teaching, it took me, no joke, AT LEAST 3 hours to come up with someone proper." - are you kidding me? (And I assume you mean something, not someone)
Are you saying this is slow in your industry/your style of teaching? Teachers can spend hours poring through subject matters, books, and constructing a curriculum- especially if they're freestyling (for eg, in an institution, or with private tutors). I've taught before and I and the other teachers can spend hours together discussing our students and cobbling together something for them. You did this ALONE? In THREE HOURS?
Doing it in such a time is pretty normal for my field, but at the same time we are told not to "overwork ourselves". As soon as I start working fulltime and not just in an internship, my workload will be 3 times as big. Imagine us teachers, full-time, having 4-5 lessons a day. Every single day after work we go home and need to prepare those lessons. If I would take 4 hours of preparing a lessons (like I did before), I would therefore need 12 hours just to prepare for the next working day - which is not acceptable. And while we can work together with other teachers, they are also busy with their own lessons and planning their own stuff. I noticed that getting ideas doesn't always help as it's not applicable to my own skills. I got told that it gets better with time and you get faster and more effective - but unfortunately it's not easy at the moment. And when I say it took me 4 hours - it's not even a lesson I am 100% satisfied with, but a lesson that is "good enough" and where spending more time would be criminal because I wouldn't get rest at all. It's even more frustrating when you go to your class with this concept and everyone is complaining how boring it is, it doesn't work or you even get evaluated badly. This is definitely not a job for a heavy 3 fix, I'm telling you...
 

Iceblueblossom

New member
Joined
Jun 25, 2021
Messages
28
MBTI Type
ISFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
@Arcturus you're an ESFJ.
I know I am not Arcturus, but may I ask how you came to that conclusion?
Because considering the things we talked about in this thread there are some pretty good arguments against this type. I personally also cannot see inferior Ti.
 

Arcturus

witching hour
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Messages
4,620
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
648
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Glad to see ISFJ being discussed.

@Arcturus you're an ESFJ.

Recall; you typed me something different in entirely before. You seem to not recognise me.

In any case, it is a little rude to type an unrelated person on someone else's type thread. @Iceblueblossom, if you do mind it, you can request to have it moved from your thread. Wouldn't mind you discussing my type, but wouldn't want to clutter your thread with it if you do not like.
 

Iceblueblossom

New member
Joined
Jun 25, 2021
Messages
28
MBTI Type
ISFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Recall; you typed me something different in entirely before. You seem to not recognise me.

In any case, it is a little rude to type an unrelated person on someone else's type thread. @Iceblueblossom, if you do mind it, you can request to have it moved from your thread. Wouldn't mind you discussing my type, but wouldn't want to clutter your thread with it if you do not like.
I would be super interested in discussing your type as well but probably not here or it might become a bit too chaotic.
 

Arcturus

witching hour
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Messages
4,620
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
648
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I will be honest, it's been awhile since I wasn't stressed or feeling burned out. The last time I felt more or less emotionally stable was at the start of university, over 6 years ago. And even school time, where I was feeling more "fresh in the head" I was getting bullied and had difficulties that could have influenced my behaviour. For what it's worth though when it comes to hobbies, even as a child and teen, I had the issue of having too many ideas, making huge goals (writing a novel), working for months on the same thing - only to have a new idea that I would replace my old one with. It's pretty telling that despite writing stories every single day for years I finished only a single one - and with the one I finished I realised that I had alot of plotholes I needed to close during the last chapter. The story didn't feel complete but I always had this feeling of "I want to finish a story at least ONCE". Alot of my "I have high Ne" claims that led to me typing myself as INFP originally was my childhood and early teen years.

Does this apply to writing only, or?
Need to look at how you treat all of your hobbies/ventures and find out what the trend/baseline/median is- that would be more representative of you than just one example.
(Plus, yes, it could be ADHD.)

For what it's worth, this could be a tell of Ne, but not exclusive to it- especially if it's constrained to only one area of life (hobbies) or one type of project (writing, etc).


I really miss those times when I could just charge into a hobby and do it without thinking of whether I can deliver a masterpiece. I could start writing, have the feeling I get into a flow experience, every sentence is writing itself and I am just living life like I am supposed to. Coming up with new ideas and what should happen next was so easy for me. I think it changed after I was showing my stories off in a forum like this one and got alot of feedback (not only good one). The feedback was good and understandable, but made me proof-read every sentence and make sure it is written in the perfect way and in a way that OTHERS would like it. As soon as I started to write for others instead of myself I really lost interest in writing and it became more frustrating. A few years ago I tried to get into writing again and built a whole world I could get into. The more I planned though the more I wanted to make this "the best thing ever" again. And I never continued. This is why I love recording songs - I can get into it for a couple days and then move on to the next project without having to be consistent with my output. I wouldn't been able to do this thing for 13 years now otherwise. I think the "I get inspiration and work really hard for it for a couple of days before I drop it" is more natural to me than working on a single thing for months or even years. I think being consistent and working hard are things that were important as I was raised (and even now). Those were the values that were most important for my mother. I wouldn't be surprised if a good chunk of the tendencies I have now is me trying to be someone I am not.

This comes across as E3 more than any other type or any specific MBTI.
However, do you know why you place more emphasis on whether other people would like it better than if you yourself would be happy with it? It might seem obvious to you, but it isn't- some people don't care what others think and is happy enough when they themselves are happy with the output (eg, me).

Typology aside, it seems that you do value positive feedback/acclaim from others, so I won't just say "Who cares, as long as you're happy!" because all that does is cause you to ignore one of your basic needs (I'm soc second and 3-fixed. I understand how much of that 'acclaim' can be downright a need for us). Go halfway, perhaps- 50/50. Have things that you do just for the joy of it, and perhaps one or two things that are created specifically for others. Then you can please yourself and still gain the kind of back-and-forth with your audience that you want- you need to feed yourself on both ends. The satisfaction from yourself, and acclaim from others. Think of it like the wheels of the wagon. All of them need to be working for the wagon (inspiration) to keep running well.


Even though I will be honest, I still LOVE planning itself. I love using my planner and setting up goals. I am just not good and not enjoying actually putting them into practise. But honestly, even considering the chance I am P instead of J, I wouldn't know what other type with Fe would even be fitting. Not that I would be able to tell honestly in my current state of mind.

No one is 100% one dichotomy or the other. People, Ps or Js, will have 'that one thing' (or few things) where they are serious and punctual about it, or chaotic and relaxed about it. If your preference is J, if you want my opinion, you are still overall J, with some 'P-like' traits, but that is just like Ps having 'J-like' traits- it's normal. Imagine a P who is completely obsessed with something, say. They can dedicate their life to it. It's also just like how if you like the occasional party, it doesn't make you an E- you still are overall Introverted.

I agree with bolded. You are Fe enough that I would sooner peg you FJ than any FP type (or IXTP. Which is even worse a fit than FJ). If you look at all the data, on balance, you seem to trend to FJ more than FP, especially if the ADHD is potentially what is causing you to not be as consistent as perhaps you would have been, or might have liked.


Funny you are mentioning it. I think it might be a bit of both. First things first: I am not in therapy anymore. I had my last session a month ago and now I need to do a little break before I can sign up for therapy again. Either way, one of the main things I discussed in therapy was my family situation and it being very toxic in general. In typical 9 fashion I didn't realise that the situation at home is not normal but seeing the reaction of everyone else in the group and of my therapist, them urging me to move out as soon as possible and them having a need to "save me" was... interesting to say the least.

That's too bad, not having therapy anymore for now. For what it's worth, when abuse has been normalised, every type can be unaware of 'how bad things are', not just 9s- it's simply honest ignorance. Your family/parents are supposed to model what the 'norm' is to you, and it could take venturing out and comparing data with other people and their families to eventually realise that your family is not normal. For so many to be as urgent about you distancing yourself from your family tells me that the situation is quite bad. One or two friends saying it, I can understand if you doubt. But a group of friends, and a professional? Believe them.


I don't know if it's really as bad as I made it sound, as obviously, I was only talking about the bad things at home instead of the things that are actually going well. But yeah, the people around me being jerks is not entirely wrong. And I had two bosses who were very strict to me as well, other bosses were confused on the other hand why I was anxious about doing things wrong or not understanding something immediately after something was explained. People have very different expectations from others and depending on that I either got along with my bosses just fine or not at all.

It's not quantity, it's quality. Even if your parents were great in other areas- eg; if they supported all your passions and made you want not for anything, one or two bad things could still invalidate it all. Think about it this way; you can be fed gourmet food daily, but it only takes one dose of poison to cause great, permanent damage. And abuse tends to be cyclic at least; it isn't a one-off thing. Why would you stay somewhere that feeds you gourmet food if it poisons you, even if it's 'only a few times'? Even if you weren't telling them the 'good sides' of your family, the bad can still be enough for them to decide that your family is toxic.

It looks like you've had a mix of understanding bosses and tough bosses. The better ones are more empathetic and tries to figure out what's going on than to just jump straight to grinding you to dust by assuming things (eg; assuming you're lazy, being puporsefully insubordinate, etc).


I am always doing my job properly however as soon as I get the hang of it - at times more accurately than my co-workers. But I can be pretty slow at the start.

Not surprised. Not all people with ADHD are like this, but some are. Very slow start, but once the system 'clicks' in their mind, they run fast and efficiently. Introducing new systems or changing things up is what gets them confused. Here, read this: [link] (Ignore the other posters. I couldn't find another source for the OP in this link.)

Even if it's an 'ingrained routine', it can still be disrupted and cause a person with ADHD to get badly thrown off if some things go differently (how many things needed to disrupt it differs from person to person and by stress levels. More stress = more ADHD symptoms).


About me possibly being neurodivergent: it's also not a new suggestion. I was crying alot about my performance and productivity issues on discord servers and people reached out to me saying I REALLY should get checked out for ADHD as they are diagnosed with it and I am lining up with alot of the common experiences that they went through. So I started to do alooot of research on ADHD, especially in women, resonanted with alot of it, but not all of it. My therapist told me "usually people with ADHD are diagnosed in childhood and also you don't look like you have ADHD" so that was done.

This is a misconception. Adult ADHD exists.
People, especially women, get underdiagnosed. ADHD has a few subtypes, among which the 'Hyperactive' one (where men get underdiagnosed, because 'boys will be boys and boys are hyper'), and the 'Attention Deficit' one (where women get underdiagnosed, because women are socialised to be quiet). Not to mention, by adulthood, people with ADHD tend to have accidentally learnt of ways to circumvent their symptoms and thus get by, thus masking their symptoms even further, making diagnosis difficult. It's like if the doctor tells you "Yep, nothing wrong with your eyesight." because you got glasses. No, your eyes are still bad, and as-is, you don't even have 'proper glasses' for it.

"You don't look like you have ADHD." my arse. It's her job to make sure of that. Something is obviously wrong, and even if it isn't ADHD, telling you it LOOKS like nothing is wrong doesn't solve the problem. Your therapist was a bad one, or at least not well-versed in ADHD. If you find another, it's best to find one that specialises or has a lot of experience with the kind of disorders you might have.

And, if you did research it, sure, there are a list of symptoms. But they also typically tell you that you only need to fit X amount of symptoms from the list to be considered for ADHD (or whatever it is). You fitting with a lot of it is a good tell, even if you don't relate to a lot of it. For eg, if you are the, for example, attention deficit subtype, you will of course not relate to the hyperactive symptoms much, if at all.


I tried to get evaluated here as well, but in Germany it's really hard to find someone who can evaluate you unless you pay alot of money or get super lucky after waiting in a waitingling for YEARS (and the waitinglist is closed at the moment). In my city only ONE psychologist is doing professional ADHD evaluation that is covered by my type of insurance and as you can imagine it's next to impossible to get there. I will try to aim for that institution as my goal for my next therapy but yeah, chances are slim. Also I am not sure how much of it is really ADHD and how much of it are just symptoms of depression - since both of it overlaps. About autism... I thought about it, especially since I had alot of issues with social interaction as a kid, but I don't have any sensory processing issues (not that I am aware) which makes up alot of the autism experience. Ofc either ADHD or autism could be mild in my case and there are a few pointers towards it that seem to be very telling (for example me doing stimming / hand flapping) but getting evaluated is next to impossible at the moment. So I am just keeping my eyes open for that waiting list...

Some co-morbid disorders can have treatments that overlap, too. Find what you can do on your own and see what works.
(Also, stimming- not to devalue what kind of stims you do, but just a mild fun fact, even neurodivergents do that. Shifting their feet, rubbing their neck, pinching the bridge of their nose, wringing their hands- all stimming. What differs is that disorders such as ADHD and autism tend to have 'atypical' stims (eg, hand flapping), or destructive ones (skin picking, hair pulling, etc), and tend to do more of it, more frequently. But yeah, could be autism, could be ADHD, or just a weird way of stimming.)

I hope you manage to get evaluated ASAP.


Very important of you to say that. I think since from my mother or from strict professors I heard that pretty often, especially in university, that I "purposefully" do things at the last minute, I start to believe that too. When in reality, I would love to finish things earlier and be more regulated - I just can do it though whenever I start something new that is exciting to me. It is honestly frustrating and my life would be a whole deal easier if I would either do things more consistently or not care as much about whether I get things done a "proper" way. Even though I tried not caring in the best, it's this underlying anxiety of "I still need to get stuff done" that is really draining. Knowing whether I have ADHD or just have poor memory and focus because of depression would really be helpful.

This is part of why children tend to be diagnosed more than adults. With children, they're still being taught, so there's an aspect of "Something is wrong, this kid is not learning right/fast enough." that people usually catch on. When people are adults, usually the expectation is "This person should have been taught this already. The fact they don't know how to then, must mean they are lazy." - the symptoms can be the same, but the consequences are different because ti tends to be viewed differently, and thus mislabelled.

Imagine if you came across an illiterate kid. People are more likely to question the parents. But if you come across an adult that seems 'dumb' (in whatever way), people are more likely to just assume that the adult simply just is actually 'dumb'.

ADHD or not, something is wrong for certain, so I hope you at least understand that since this is out of your control and you're not getting help for it (yet), it's about the illness, not who you are as a person.


Doing it in such a time is pretty normal for my field, but at the same time we are told not to "overwork ourselves". As soon as I start working fulltime and not just in an internship, my workload will be 3 times as big. Imagine us teachers, full-time, having 4-5 lessons a day. Every single day after work we go home and need to prepare those lessons. If I would take 4 hours of preparing a lessons (like I did before), I would therefore need 12 hours just to prepare for the next working day - which is not acceptable. And while we can work together with other teachers, they are also busy with their own lessons and planning their own stuff. I noticed that getting ideas doesn't always help as it's not applicable to my own skills. I got told that it gets better with time and you get faster and more effective - but unfortunately it's not easy at the moment. And when I say it took me 4 hours - it's not even a lesson I am 100% satisfied with, but a lesson that is "good enough" and where spending more time would be criminal because I wouldn't get rest at all. It's even more frustrating when you go to your class with this concept and everyone is complaining how boring it is, it doesn't work or you even get evaluated badly. This is definitely not a job for a heavy 3 fix, I'm telling you...

Oh per day. That's a lot, yeah. What I did was prepare worksheets for the week and it could take the whole day, so I didn't have to slave over it every day but it wasn't something that would get done in 3-4 hours either. I also only taught 1-2 lessons a day, 4 at worst (teaching assistant/substitute teacher). I taught in my own way, but exchanging with other teachers can help with ideas for kids who are struggling/don't fit your usual teaching style.
It certainly doesn't sound like it could pair well with a heavy 3 fix, esp if the 3 fix is still struggling.
 
Last edited:

Iceblueblossom

New member
Joined
Jun 25, 2021
Messages
28
MBTI Type
ISFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Does this apply to writing only, or?
Need to look at how you treat all of your hobbies/ventures and find out what the trend/baseline/median is- that would be more representative of you than just one example.
(Plus, yes, it could be ADHD.)

For what it's worth, this could be a tell of Ne, but not exclusive to it- especially if it's constrained to only one area of life (hobbies) or one type of project (writing, etc).
Nope, it's not only writing. But the main example of a time where I was mentally doing pretty okay and having those tendencies. I still have the same nowadays with my projects: having a grand idea, starting to work on it and 99% of it is dropped unless it sticks for some unknown reason.

This comes across as E3 more than any other type or any specific MBTI.
However, do you know why you place more emphasis on whether other people would like it better than if you yourself would be happy with it? It might seem obvious to you, but it isn't- some people don't care what others think and is happy enough when they themselves are happy with the output (eg, me).

Typology aside, it seems that you do value positive feedback/acclaim from others, so I won't just say "Who cares, as long as you're happy!" because all that does is cause you to ignore one of your basic needs (I'm soc second and 3-fixed. I understand how much of that 'acclaim' can be downright a need for us). Go halfway, perhaps- 50/50. Have things that you do just for the joy of it, and perhaps one or two things that are created specifically for others. Then you can please yourself and still gain the kind of back-and-forth with your audience that you want- you need to feed yourself on both ends. The satisfaction from yourself, and acclaim from others. Think of it like the wheels of the wagon. All of them need to be working for the wagon (inspiration) to keep running well.
Doing things I myself enjoy is definitely helping. Though I will be honest that it's kind of difficult to keep the balance. I have to make sure not to go too far into seaking compliments for other people. And as for the reason why I am seeking it? I guess because I have very bad self-esteem and thinking that getting any sort of positive attention from other people will make me a more worthy human being and that would make me see myself in another light too. I think a part of it is also my naturally low dopamine level and wanting to feel good for a second or two.

That's too bad, not having therapy anymore for now. For what it's worth, when abuse has been normalised, every type can be unaware of 'how bad things are', not just 9s- it's simply honest ignorance. Your family/parents are supposed to model what the 'norm' is to you, and it could take venturing out and comparing data with other people and their families to eventually realise that your family is not normal. For so many to be as urgent about you distancing yourself from your family tells me that the situation is quite bad. One or two friends saying it, I can understand if you doubt. But a group of friends, and a professional? Believe them.
Yes, I am absolutely believing them. I am just waiting to earn more money after my internship so that I would be able to pay for my own flat. This should be the case in about a year. I am really looking forward to it.

Not surprised. Not all people with ADHD are like this, but some are. Very slow start, but once the system 'clicks' in their mind, they run fast and efficiently. Introducing new systems or changing things up is what gets them confused. Here, read this: [link] (Ignore the other posters. I couldn't find another source for the OP in this link.)

Even if it's an 'ingrained routine', it can still be disrupted and cause a person with ADHD to get badly thrown off if some things go differently (how many things needed to disrupt it differs from person to person and by stress levels. More stress = more ADHD symptoms).
I can relate to this alot - but on the other hand I always thought that "trouble when things are changed up" is more of an autism problem. I might really want to overthink some of my overall issues. I do have the issue that I have trouble if things are changed but at the same time I struggle if things are not changed up enough. It's a weird combination.

This is a misconception. Adult ADHD exists.
People, especially women, get underdiagnosed. ADHD has a few subtypes, among which the 'Hyperactive' one (where men get underdiagnosed, because 'boys will be boys and boys are hyper'), and the 'Attention Deficit' one (where women get underdiagnosed, because women are socialised to be quiet). Not to mention, by adulthood, people with ADHD tend to have accidentally learnt of ways to circumvent their symptoms and thus get by, thus masking their symptoms even further, making diagnosis difficult. It's like if the doctor tells you "Yep, nothing wrong with your eyesight." because you got glasses. No, your eyes are still bad, and as-is, you don't even have 'proper glasses' for it.

"You don't look like you have ADHD." my arse. It's her job to make sure of that. Something is obviously wrong, and even if it isn't ADHD, telling you it LOOKS like nothing is wrong doesn't solve the problem. Your therapist was a bad one, or at least not well-versed in ADHD. If you find another, it's best to find one that specialises or has a lot of experience with the kind of disorders you might have.

And, if you did research it, sure, there are a list of symptoms. But they also typically tell you that you only need to fit X amount of symptoms from the list to be considered for ADHD (or whatever it is). You fitting with a lot of it is a good tell, even if you don't relate to a lot of it. For eg, if you are the, for example, attention deficit subtype, you will of course not relate to the hyperactive symptoms much, if at all.
Funny enough whenever I think of symptoms of ADHD I had in childhood I mostly think of hyperactive symptoms - but not in the way that is stereotypical or even very obvious to others. The stimming, talking alot, interrupting others. My issues with staying focused started to be REALLY annoying about 7-8 years ago and it's going strong ever since. And yes, my therapist is no expert with ADHD - none of the two I had were. In fact, looking back I named many things to my first therapist that were obvious signs that might point to ADHD but they just got named as "you are not trying hard enough" or "you are manipulating yourself because you don't want to put in the work". Very sad to hear that from your own therapist, but she was pretty inexperienced, so I understand where she was coming from.

I hope you manage to get evaluated ASAP.
I've been thinking after you said that. Originally I wanted to buy more streaming-equipment for alooot of money and a new PC. However, I start to question whether I should invest the 500 bucks into an evaluation. I found a therapist online with very good reviews and alot of experience who could diagnose me. There is also a clinic not far from here that takes people who can pay themselves (but it could be possibly even more expensive). I think about actually investing into this but at the same time I start to question - if I in fact DON'T have ADHD and it's just me living under bad circumstanced with depression that is affecting my brain like this... I would have wasted 500 Euro and possible feel even worse about myself. Sure, I NEED this evaluation and I would end up questioning whether I have it all the time, but still, it's a step I am very afraid of.

It certainly doesn't sound like it could pair well with a heavy 3 fix, esp if the 3 fix is still struggling.
I am not really sure how to find a solution for this because staying with this profession is super important in order for me to move out. I assume I need to find the right balance between work and getting the recognision I crave. Honestly, I only recently accepted the fact I want to get attention and be successful. I always hid that fact from others and from myself. "Nooo, I am doing this because it's fun and I love to make other people happy" - basically lying in their faces. But I am seeing so many people fighting for their own dreams - why shouldn't I do the same?
 

Arcturus

witching hour
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Messages
4,620
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
648
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Nope, it's not only writing. But the main example of a time where I was mentally doing pretty okay and having those tendencies. I still have the same nowadays with my projects: having a grand idea, starting to work on it and 99% of it is dropped unless it sticks for some unknown reason. [...] I can relate to this alot - but on the other hand I always thought that "trouble when things are changed up" is more of an autism problem. I might really want to overthink some of my overall issues. I do have the issue that I have trouble if things are changed but at the same time I struggle if things are not changed up enough. It's a weird combination.

Bolded is much more ADHD than autism. Autism can tend to cause someone to stick more consistently than ADHD does- ADHD is more actively disruptive. Trouble when things are changed up is also an ADHD thing- making connections quickly, but having trouble changing it. For autism, it's more strongly a sensory thing, for ADHD (getting meltdowns or stressed at routine changes, etc), it's more strongly a cognitive thing ("my brain isn't computing this" / not catching on "quickly enough").

Bold + Italic is also more an ADHD thing than autism thing, autism can be a bit stuck with safe/predictable patterns to a fault, whereas ADHD has that 'dopamine deficit' going on (is why stuff like social media abuse, hyperfixations happen with ADHD), causing chaos/difficulty understanding new things if the dopamine deficiency hits- "I always did this right before, why and how the hell did I mess it up?" "Everything was going smoothly. Why do I just want to drop it now?"

Here is a source that underlines how ADHD and autism differs in terms of routine VS variety: [link]


Funny enough whenever I think of symptoms of ADHD I had in childhood I mostly think of hyperactive symptoms - but not in the way that is stereotypical or even very obvious to others. The stimming, talking alot, interrupting others. My issues with staying focused started to be REALLY annoying about 7-8 years ago and it's going strong ever since. And yes, my therapist is no expert with ADHD - none of the two I had were. In fact, looking back I named many things to my first therapist that were obvious signs that might point to ADHD but they just got named as "you are not trying hard enough" or "you are manipulating yourself because you don't want to put in the work". Very sad to hear that from your own therapist, but she was pretty inexperienced, so I understand where she was coming from.

People can mix, and trend states that people with ADHD tend to 'mellow out' as they age (read: adapt to expectations and practical needs), a part of what makes an adult diagnosis difficult/why some people believe ADHD "happens in kids only".

Bolded is horrid. If you look for others with ADHD, you will find many who had to go through a gauntlet of those kind of comments before figuring out that they weren't lazy, they had an actual cognitive disorder. It's like filling the blanks, except your therapist came up with the wrong answer. If you'd done your best and it still wasn't enough, there's a sign something deeper is wrong, that's all there is to it.

Some people might be dismissive because they think that if you believe you have ADHD (or whatever it is), or get diagnosed, it will make you worse (???), "No, it's not that horrid, horrid illness, you're just lazy!" - something like that - which is crazy, because identifying the problem is the first step to actually solving it. If the problem isn't about how hard you work, you can work as hard as you can and the ADHD symptoms will stay anyway, if not exacerbate (as with many disorders, they tend to get worse under stress). But this isn't a willpower issue, it's actual cognitive impairment.


Doing things I myself enjoy is definitely helping. Though I will be honest that it's kind of difficult to keep the balance. I have to make sure not to go too far into seaking compliments for other people. And as for the reason why I am seeking it? I guess because I have very bad self-esteem and thinking that getting any sort of positive attention from other people will make me a more worthy human being and that would make me see myself in another light too. I think a part of it is also my naturally low dopamine level and wanting to feel good for a second or two.

I've been thinking after you said that. Originally I wanted to buy more streaming-equipment for alooot of money and a new PC. However, I start to question whether I should invest the 500 bucks into an evaluation. I found a therapist online with very good reviews and alot of experience who could diagnose me. There is also a clinic not far from here that takes people who can pay themselves (but it could be possibly even more expensive). I think about actually investing into this but at the same time I start to question - if I in fact DON'T have ADHD and it's just me living under bad circumstanced with depression that is affecting my brain like this... I would have wasted 500 Euro and possible feel even worse about myself. Sure, I NEED this evaluation and I would end up questioning whether I have it all the time, but still, it's a step I am very afraid of.

I am not really sure how to find a solution for this because staying with this profession is super important in order for me to move out. I assume I need to find the right balance between work and getting the recognision I crave. Honestly, I only recently accepted the fact I want to get attention and be successful. I always hid that fact from others and from myself. "Nooo, I am doing this because it's fun and I love to make other people happy" - basically lying in their faces. But I am seeing so many people fighting for their own dreams - why shouldn't I do the same?

Re; bad self esteem and needing positive attention will "make you more worthy": Not surprised considering your apparently toxic background/environment. Giving into believing that you have no worth is exacerbating the illness and only treating the symptom. It looks like something else you could go to a therapist for- to be able to get a more realistic, and fair view of yourself.

Health would come before pleasure, especially if you could afford it. I highly suggest you prepare a list (or a typed essay even) of issues you deal with in order of priority of which ones bother you the most to the least, and to ask your therapist for ways to try work with it and be able to function better. If you get a good therapist, it's highly likely you will still come away with something that can still help you, even if not a diagnosis. They can also help you narrow down what the diagnosis might be, and pinpoint what issues you do have that you may not even know of.

Diagnosis itself can be a bit of a journey and that much will be a step ahead- the next time you go to a therapist, you have some background and can take the next step instead of starting from 0. Consider also; if they are well-versed in ADHD and confirms you don't, they could still confirm that you do have something wrong and can point out what other things it might be- it's their job to see if their patient has something "wrong" with their personality, cognition, etc. Usually therapists/psychiatrists who specialise like that are good enough to be able to at least give you a list of what you might have. Like regular doctors, really. You may not get an immediate diagnosis, but you can have a list of what it might be and get referred to another doctor- a step forward regardless.

That, and, understanding what's wrong, even if not why- yet, can make a huge difference. Even just knowing, having it confirmed that something is wrong (even if you don't know what), might also help you be less hard on yourself, understanding that it's something out of your control and not you being 'too lazy' or a 'worthless person' or whatever it is. ADHD, Autism, depression- whatever it is- they should be able to help you, even without a diagnosis (but of course, it's always better with one). Consider that even people without disorders still go to the therapist for all sorts of issues and reap benefits from it. If this therapist is as good as you say, you can only gain from an appointment- be sure to use the limited time wisely.

Even if you have to hunker down for now and keep working and saving up first to move out, and if and getting a PC would help you more immediately, consider it for the future. Really consider it.
 

Iceblueblossom

New member
Joined
Jun 25, 2021
Messages
28
MBTI Type
ISFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Bolded is much more ADHD than autism. Autism can tend to cause someone to stick more consistently than ADHD does- ADHD is more actively disruptive. Trouble when things are changed up is also an ADHD thing- making connections quickly, but having trouble changing it. For autism, it's more strongly a sensory thing, for ADHD (getting meltdowns or stressed at routine changes, etc), it's more strongly a cognitive thing ("my brain isn't computing this" / not catching on "quickly enough").

Bold + Italic is also more an ADHD thing than autism thing, autism can be a bit stuck with safe/predictable patterns to a fault, whereas ADHD has that 'dopamine deficit' going on (is why stuff like social media abuse, hyperfixations happen with ADHD), causing chaos/difficulty understanding new things if the dopamine deficiency hits- "I always did this right before, why and how the hell did I mess it up?" "Everything was going smoothly. Why do I just want to drop it now?"

Here is a source that underlines how ADHD and autism differs in terms of routine VS variety: [link]

I read the link. I think I don't relate to everything for each of them and I find that what bothers me is a combination of both. At least as a child. Nowadays I am more bothered by the ADHD symptoms as they became much much stronger.

People can mix, and trend states that people with ADHD tend to 'mellow out' as they age (read: adapt to expectations and practical needs), a part of what makes an adult diagnosis difficult/why some people believe ADHD "happens in kids only".

Bolded is horrid. If you look for others with ADHD, you will find many who had to go through a gauntlet of those kind of comments before figuring out that they weren't lazy, they had an actual cognitive disorder. It's like filling the blanks, except your therapist came up with the wrong answer. If you'd done your best and it still wasn't enough, there's a sign something deeper is wrong, that's all there is to it.

Some people might be dismissive because they think that if you believe you have ADHD (or whatever it is), or get diagnosed, it will make you worse (???), "No, it's not that horrid, horrid illness, you're just lazy!" - something like that - which is crazy, because identifying the problem is the first step to actually solving it. If the problem isn't about how hard you work, you can work as hard as you can and the ADHD symptoms will stay anyway, if not exacerbate (as with many disorders, they tend to get worse under stress). But this isn't a willpower issue, it's actual cognitive impairment.
I can't relate to my symptoms becoming easier to manage but I assume it also might have something to do with me being female.

And yes, I am aware that this is a very common experience that people with ADHD go through and the people I talked to also had similar experience. However, it's not something I've been told my entire life (thankfully), honestly the only people who were consistent about it were my therapist and my mother though my mother is "problematic" for different reasons too, so it's not just me being "lazy". I think the teachers in school gave me more credit than I deserved 99% of the time. They saw me as a hardworking student that spent a significant amount of time on their homework. Which was... not true hahaha.

Diagnosis itself can be a bit of a journey and that much will be a step ahead- the next time you go to a therapist, you have some background and can take the next step instead of starting from 0. Consider also; if they are well-versed in ADHD and confirms you don't, they could still confirm that you do have something wrong and can point out what other things it might be- it's their job to see if their patient has something "wrong" with their personality, cognition, etc. Usually therapists/psychiatrists who specialise like that are good enough to be able to at least give you a list of what you might have. Like regular doctors, really. You may not get an immediate diagnosis, but you can have a list of what it might be and get referred to another doctor- a step forward regardless.

That, and, understanding what's wrong, even if not why- yet, can make a huge difference. Even just knowing, having it confirmed that something is wrong (even if you don't know what), might also help you be less hard on yourself, understanding that it's something out of your control and not you being 'too lazy' or a 'worthless person' or whatever it is. ADHD, Autism, depression- whatever it is- they should be able to help you, even without a diagnosis (but of course, it's always better with one). Consider that even people without disorders still go to the therapist for all sorts of issues and reap benefits from it. If this therapist is as good as you say, you can only gain from an appointment- be sure to use the limited time wisely.

Even if you have to hunker down for now and keep working and saving up first to move out, and if and getting a PC would help you more immediately, consider it for the future. Really consider it.
I just got a mail from the clinic very close to me that a diagnosis would be around 500-765 Euro (depending on how many sessions we need to figure it out). They don't have any capacities right now but they want me to call if I want to put myself on a waiting list. Not going to lie, this is super expense but also something I would love to finally go through - especially since they really seem professional and offer more for the price than the online one (more sessions). I would definitely think about it. Thankfully my community already contributed to my fund a bit so it's a bit more bearable. I will think about putting myself on the waiting list. Depending on how long it will be it will give me more time to collect some money too.
 
Top