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[Type 4] 4s & gender

FunnyDigestion

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Or gender "roles", if you think life is like a performance.

First question: isn't life like a performance??

But, I think 5s are the least gender-particular Enneagram type. All 5s are kinda the same, in their behavior. 4s are more mysterious, usually they have some androgynous feature that's hard to put your finger on. Like women 4s usually have a cold, hardass element that seems out of place, while male 4s usually have a gentle, sympathetic element that seems out of place... even though ultimately male & female 4s are probably mostly the same.

What do you think? Are 4s the most androgynous type?
 
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CzeCze

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ps I just happened to stumble onto your thread because but in the future you can report post your OP and request the thread be moved.
 

Totenkindly

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MOVE TO ENNEAGRAM FORUM

Or gender "roles", if you think life is like a performance.

First question: isn't life like a performance??

But, I think 5s are the least gender-particular Enneagram type. All 5s are kinda the same, in their behavior. 4s are more mysterious, usually they have some androgynous feature that's hard to put your finger on. Like women 4s usually have a cold, hardass element that seems out of place, while male 4s usually have a gentle, sympathetic element that seems out of place... even though ultimately male & female 4s are probably mostly the same.

What do you think? Are 4s the most androgynous type?

I dunno. I think you were more correct with Fives. Because we're detached by nature, hence we tend not to gender-identify or fit into prescribed gender behavior.

Fours, I typically scan as female regardless of true gender.
 
G

Glycerine

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4s I see as more feminine and 5s more masculine.

4s have the deep emotional expressiveness going on which I equate with "feminine" and 5s have the detached, aloof nature thing going on which I equate with being a bit more "masculine".
 

FunnyDigestion

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I dunno. I think you were more correct with Fives. Because we're detached by nature, hence we tend not to gender-identify or fit into prescribed gender behavior.

Fours, I typically scan as female regardless of true gender.

Lol... that's a good point, people in the chat always thought I was a girl for some reason... they say 4s are the creative type, & I tend to think creativity is related to femininity-- or maybe androgyny, since creative people regardless of gender tend to have higher sex drive.

I always tell people I'm basically a girl deep down, & the only reason I can do anything is by acting... & if I weren't a good actor I probably would have been murdered by the real men a long time ago... but then something always happens to make me realize, "Wow, I'm really just a typical guy... damn".

I wonder if it's the same for female 4s-- they feel cold, bitchy, more like men than women until something emotional happens & they're like, "Oh fuck I really am a woman.... shit"... perhaps. I think it's possible female 4s know more of the truth of life than any other people... perhaps.
 

21%

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I always tell people I'm basically a girl deep down, & the only reason I can do anything is by acting... & if I weren't a good actor I probably would have been murdered by the real men a long time ago... but then something always happens to make me realize, "Wow, I'm really just a typical guy... damn".
I didn't know you were a guy :D

I wonder if it's the same for female 4s-- they feel cold, bitchy, more like men than women until something emotional happens & they're like, "Oh fuck I really am a woman.... shit"... perhaps. I think it's possible female 4s know more of the truth of life than any other people... perhaps.
I'm a female 4 and normally I feel like a normal person, but occasionally I get overwhelmed by my emotions and I think "Oh crap I'm so weird and no one will ever understand me" :blush:
 

FunnyDigestion

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I didn't know you were a guy :D


I'm a female 4 and normally I feel like a normal person, but occasionally I get overwhelmed by my emotions and I think "Oh crap I'm so weird and no one will ever understand me" :blush:

1- F U !!!!!! J/K

2 - You're not that weird... I understand. Being alive is weird.
 

21%

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2 - You're not that weird... I understand. Being alive is weird.
The weird thing about this is... I actually like it that I'm weird and that no one will ever understand me :blush:
 

FunnyDigestion

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The weird thing about this is... I actually like it that I'm weird and that no one will ever understand me :blush:

To an extent, you're right.... but I find that even I can't understand myself, when I look back at how I was a few years previous... like when I read back on something I wrote when I was 21, 22, I think "WTF am I talking about"... so maybe understanding isn't that important-- or not as important as people like you & me tend to think. :)
 

21%

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To an extent, you're right.... but I find that even I can't understand myself, when I look back at how I was a few years previous... like when I read back on something I wrote when I was 21, 22, I think "WTF am I talking about"... so maybe understanding isn't that important-- or not as important as people like you & me tend to think. :)

When I read my old journal entries I just tend to crack up :laugh:

I feel that I long to be understood, but at the same time I feel scared that if I could ever be totally understood at all, that would mean I was 'normal' and 'fixable' after all, and I don't know if I want that... not sure if this would make sense to anyone :blush:
 

Adasta

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I always tell people I'm basically a girl deep down, & the only reason I can do anything is by acting... & if I weren't a good actor I probably would have been murdered by the real men a long time ago... but then something always happens to make me realize, "Wow, I'm really just a typical guy... damn".

You don't enjoy being a man? Being a 4 is pretty good but I think there are often difficulties reconciling emotional intensity with others' viewpoints.

I think it's odd you say that you're basically a girl. The qualities male 4s possess are not divorced from conceptions of masculinity; they merely manifest in ways different from the prevailing norm. Your upset at being a typical guy derives from your desire to be unique. You aren't unique though, and when you realise that, it bothers you. This may explain your valourisation of "femininity", since it would further divorce you from masculinty which, in your construction, is something to be repelled since it is "ordinary".
 

Santosha

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I dunno, for myself (female) 4w3 I can definately be a hardass. I have always been highly assertive, I often take lead roles in social settings being the one to engage others into group activity. And in relationships I always start out on equal footing but once I get into the longhaul (id say after about 2 years) I do tend to 'wear the pants' even though I despise the term. Alot of people that know me say that I just have a strong personality. Its gotten worse since I hit 30, more than ever I hear this. When younger I struggled revealing my feelings when hurt or angry and very much feared being ill received, probably that 3 wing. I can see the ops point, my friends tease me at times and say I must have been a man in my last life even though my appearance, behavior and interests are extremely girly in nature.
 

FunnyDigestion

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You don't enjoy being a man? Being a 4 is pretty good but I think there are often difficulties reconciling emotional intensity with others' viewpoints.

I think it's odd you say that you're basically a girl. The qualities male 4s possess are not divorced from conceptions of masculinity; they merely manifest in ways different from the prevailing norm. Your upset at being a typical guy derives from your desire to be unique. You aren't unique though, and when you realise that, it bothers you. This may explain your valourisation of "femininity", since it would further divorce you from masculinty which, in your construction, is something to be repelled since it is "ordinary".

Well, I am unique... but everyone is, to a degree.. so I'm not that different from anybody else. That's not what I'm talking about though. I mean, the things I really care about are the things women usually care about-- romance, beauty, "true love", community... but I also care about the masculine stuff-- politics, philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche, being able to play the guitar...it just seems less important.
 

Richardsen

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Well, I am unique... but everyone is, to a degree.. so I'm not that different from anybody else. That's not what I'm talking about though. I mean, the things I really care about are the things women usually care about-- romance, beauty, "true love", community... but I also care about the masculine stuff-- politics, philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche, being able to play the guitar...it just seems less important.


All the men want true love, what you're saying is not very particular.
Im very sensitive, feely, romantic. But not because of that i would consider myself feminine.

You're labeling yourself too much to appear more particular/unique to other people. Too much self-absortion.
If you consider that you're too girly, well... use it in the real world, and live with it. Is not too complicated.
Sorry... but that's what I see.
 

FunnyDigestion

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All the men want true love, what you're saying is not very particular.
Im very sensitive, feely, romantic. But not because of that i would consider myself feminine.

You're labeling yourself too much to appear more particular/unique to other people. Too much self-absortion.
If you consider that you're too girly, well... use it in the real world, and live with it. Is not too complicated.
Sorry... but that's what I see.

I don't consider myself feminine either, but those qualities you listed are commonly associated with femininity, & are not seen as things men should care about.

But I'm not trying to talk about myself in this thread, this was an experimental thread. This is research... my comment about being "murdered by the real men" (lol) was a joke. I don't have any problems with myself... other than that I'm often not as good of a person as I'd want to be. I don't think I'm girly, but I wouldn't be offended if someone thought I was... But I'm talking about the perspectives of others.
 

OrangeAppled

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4s are more mysterious, usually they have some androgynous feature that's hard to put your finger on. Like women 4s usually have a cold, hardass element that seems out of place, while male 4s usually have a gentle, sympathetic element that seems out of place... even though ultimately male & female 4s are probably mostly the same.

What do you think? Are 4s the most androgynous type?

I've thought this concerning IFPs too. People think of Feeling types as warm & squishy, but with IFPs, this is more true of the males I've encountered. Although not all, as some seem as prickly as the females. Which leads me to the other point, which is that the Fi females lack that open warmth associated with Fe (and somehow, with Feeling in general; I'd argue it's extroversion though), which is sort of the stereotypical woman. Hearing T women yack on about feeling different from other women & why always makes me puzzled, because I'm a Feeling type and I don't relate to their characterization of Feeling women. Instead, I hear "Fe" and "Extroverts" in their portrayals of Feeling women. But then you know, I'm a 4 and I feel "different" from everyone :D :tongue: .
 
B

brainheart

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Fi females lack that open warmth associated with Fe (and somehow, with Feeling in general; I'd argue it's extroversion though), which is sort of the stereotypical woman. Hearing T women yack on about feeling different from other women & why always makes me puzzled, because I'm a Feeling type and I don't relate to their characterization of Feeling women. Instead, I hear "Fe" and "Extroverts" in their portrayals of Feeling women. But then you know, I'm a 4 and I feel "different" from everyone :D :tongue: .

Yeah, this is exactly why I thought I was an INTP for awhile. There are a lot of INFP descriptions out there which make us sound like we are extroverted feelers and I didn't relate to that at all.

This isn't to say that I'm not feminine, I guess. But not in the traditional way. In all honesty, I don't perceive myself in terms of gender all that much. I don't think of myself as a woman so much as a human. I often find myself identifying more with male musicians/writers/protagonists, not because they are male, but just because they often don't seem to be so caught up in gender. They are people, vs with females/female characters there often seems to be this emphasis on being a woman, confiding in your girl friends/ female solidarity, etc, that I really don't relate to.
 
A

Anew Leaf

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When I read my old journal entries I just tend to crack up :laugh:

I feel that I long to be understood, but at the same time I feel scared that if I could ever be totally understood at all, that would mean I was 'normal' and 'fixable' after all, and I don't know if I want that... not sure if this would make sense to anyone :blush:

:laugh:

so hilariously and pathetically true for myself as well.
 

chickpea

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i definitely have more feminine than masculine traits, but i've always had some kind of disconnect with most girls where i feel unlike them. but not a tomboy or a guy's girl either, although i do find guys easier to hang out with sometimes. i guess it's the whole maternal caretaker thing, i just don't have it. me and my best friend always talk about how we're not 'real' girls.
 

Domino

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You're welcome

:alttongue:

-Friendly Neighborhood Mod


ps I just happened to stumble onto your thread because but in the future you can report post your OP and request the thread be moved.

CZEEEEEE!! XX OO

OP - This brings up something that has been bothering me for some time. When I was young, I was very subdued and self-contained. I was the archetypal wallflower, albeit a very intense and irascible one. I stayed "tomboy" for a lot longer than my other girlfriends, into my teens. I felt boyish and enjoyed "boy" activities (or things associated traditionally with boys), like anything that meant getting dirty, while liking "girly" things, like clothes and glitter and make-up. I stayed shuttered up in myself into my teens, even after my first boyfriend at 16.

My sister tells me that I "came into my own" in my early to mid 20s. I'm not sure what happened. Something just kicked in. It was and is a mystery to me - I just woke up one day and there it was? I felt altered somehow. After that, I began noticing that I attracted both men and women sexually, which was surprising to me because I feel, at any given time, a great deal less attractive than my sister and my female best friends who are both vibrant and pretty. My ENTJ best friend has reported being attractive to other women, and she isn't sure why.

Is that "male" energy? Is that "androgyny"? Does it have to do with being a sx 4?

I'm not sure? It's very frustrating. I don't find mysteries flattering.
 
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