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Doctor Cringelord

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Probably more a “scene” or a symptom of culture. Likely not some mass, highly organized conspiracy. I think most so called conspiracies are usually more often coincidences arising from general cultural trends.

Certain patterns and coincidences arise but people want to interpret them as indicative of some insidious master plan. It’s not always that simple.

They were connected in the loosest way possible.
 

tinker683

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I JUST fininished watching the Netflix documentary and I've been listening to the "Ultimate Evil". My conclusions are thus:

1) It was more of a scene than any sort of clandestine conspiracy. It seems like a lot of these individuals frequented the same social circles but I don't think there is some grand-pooba-Santanic cult trying to reave chaos all over the country
2) I think the evidence presented about David Berkowitz not working alone however was well done and I think seems quite compelling. The discussions I'm finding online about this are quite interesting :)
 

Lark

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Messages
29,610
Probably more a “scene” or a symptom of culture. Likely not some mass, highly organized conspiracy. I think most so called conspiracies are usually more often coincidences arising from general cultural trends.

Certain patterns and coincidences arise but people want to interpret them as indicative of some insidious master plan. It’s not always that simple.

They were connected in the loosest way possible.

I would agree with that, although if there are people conspiring or plotting to certain ends its unlikely to be a single conspiracy and I think if these separate plots just happen to overlap it can look like some over arching grand conspiracy which isnt really happening.

Like watching the documentary on Son of Sam what I was struck by was there were a bunch of really criminal, sadistic types, there was a lot of money involved too, people making snuff movies, people peddling pornographic material, a lot of drugs being dealt and I think these guys where exploiting these weird cultural trends to groom and recruit people or dupe people.

I also think there were a lot of these mad gurus and clever types applying a lot of manipulation just at a moment when people were susceptible to it. The fictionalized accounts of Manson in Mindhunter suggest that's the case. One of the Manson Family killers in it said that they thought Manson was this little guy who cultivated this weird, crazy, scary persona because in the world he's chosen to inhabit he'd be bottom of the heap otherwise.
 

Lark

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Joined
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Messages
29,610
I JUST fininished watching the Netflix documentary and I've been listening to the "Ultimate Evil". My conclusions are thus:

1) It was more of a scene than any sort of clandestine conspiracy. It seems like a lot of these individuals frequented the same social circles but I don't think there is some grand-pooba-Santanic cult trying to reave chaos all over the country
2) I think the evidence presented about David Berkowitz not working alone however was well done and I think seems quite compelling. The discussions I'm finding online about this are quite interesting :)

I do think he didnt work alone, the same as the Zodiac killings I think the actual police investigations were terrible, they where conducted too much in public view and in front of the media and its bound to have bred panic, not just among the public but among the investigators themselves, which results in people just wanting to close a case and any co-conspirators going to ground when they get the chance to let some one member of their gang carry the can and allow them to.

The whole grand conspiracy thing reminded me of the Fight Club project Mayhem thing and I wondered if Fight Club's author knew about it. The getting together because of some sort of therapy culture or wounded masculinity and then spawning violent chaos resembles the whole satanic panic thing only the scene was different.

I've read a little more about this and there are a lot of people, and I dont mean evangelist circles, who seem to think that the original gatherings and satanic circle get togethers unleashed some sort of demoic force or summoned up some kind of bullshit demon, the guy who is serving time for the Son of Sam killings himself has talked about being possessed. The secular side of this does the whole possession and obsession as psychological phenomenon, apparently meme theory suggests people get possessed by ideas, I dont know I am not a big fan of some of those ideas if I'm honest.

That's an extra level of weirdness, good and evil are in the heart of man mainly, not some exterior force interfering with things. At least that's what I believe. And I actually do believe in the existence of those exterior forces, just that people shouldnt be able to abdicate their responsibility for their behaviour so easily that way.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Messages
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I would agree with that, although if there are people conspiring or plotting to certain ends its unlikely to be a single conspiracy and I think if these separate plots just happen to overlap it can look like some over arching grand conspiracy which isnt really happening.

Like watching the documentary on Son of Sam what I was struck by was there were a bunch of really criminal, sadistic types, there was a lot of money involved too, people making snuff movies, people peddling pornographic material, a lot of drugs being dealt and I think these guys where exploiting these weird cultural trends to groom and recruit people or dupe people.

I also think there were a lot of these mad gurus and clever types applying a lot of manipulation just at a moment when people were susceptible to it. The fictionalized accounts of Manson in Mindhunter suggest that's the case. One of the Manson Family killers in it said that they thought Manson was this little guy who cultivated this weird, crazy, scary persona because in the world he's chosen to inhabit he'd be bottom of the heap otherwise.

Plus Manson was considerably older than most of his followers. Most of them were young and impressionable. Manson the failed folk singer probably carried a certain aura that appealed to them in their drug addled states.
 

The Cat

I'm from Outer Space...Dont Overthink it.
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Truth is I think there's something in all humans that likes being scandalized and longs for the permission to be set free. In any repressive society there's going to be outliers to try to prey upon that basic human drive and twist it towards their own ends. And given how it seems most folk have an inborn need to not be percieved as outliers themselves, the worm just keeps turning. Ouroboros. The machine grinds on...
As Tim Curry Sings the human condition:

Hey personally I'd love to believe that it was all spiritual possessions, monsters wearing people skin, or some kind of horrible supernatural conspiracy...because then it wouldnt just be what we are...
 

ceecee

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Plus Manson was considerably older than most of his followers. Most of them were young and impressionable. Manson the failed folk singer probably carried a certain aura that appealed to them in their drug addled states.

I mean....it's not like his followers that are still alive/incarcerated haven't like discussed this with anyone in the 50 years since. And they all pretty much say exactly ^^ this.

No I don't think this was like Project Mayhem/Fight Club nor do I think it's some grand conspiracy. I think it had much more to do with the time than anything else - there was a lot going on all at once, very easy to manipulate young people. I think Children of God is far worse than the Manson family, and it started around the same time. Rose McGowan was born into that cult - it may explain a lot.

I don't see parallels to the Son of Sam murders. But I think it's plausible David Berkowitz didn't act alone.
 

Lark

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Jun 21, 2009
Messages
29,610
Truth is I think there's something in all humans that likes being scandalized and longs for the permission to be set free. In any repressive society there's going to be outliers to try to prey upon that basic human drive and twist it towards their own ends. And given how it seems most folk have an inborn need to not be percieved as outliers themselves, the worm just keeps turning. Ouroboros. The machine grinds on...
As Tim Curry Sings the human condition:

Hey personally I'd love to believe that it was all spiritual possessions, monsters wearing people skin, or some kind of horrible supernatural conspiracy...because then it wouldnt just be what we are...

I do think there's a drive to be free, I do think some people repress it in themselves and suppress it socially or culturally but I'm not sure if its the same thing as you're talking about.

I do think that people do believe the whole supernatural evil exhonourates or excuses all merely human evil, I think that could be why criminals say they've been possessed or that they were temporarily insane etc. Although the idea of human, all too human evil being the necessary and sufficient explanation is catching on too.
 

The Cat

I'm from Outer Space...Dont Overthink it.
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I do think there's a drive to be free, I do think some people repress it in themselves and suppress it socially or culturally but I'm not sure if its the same thing as you're talking about.

I do think that people do believe the whole supernatural evil exhonourates or excuses all merely human evil, I think that could be why criminals say they've been possessed or that they were temporarily insane etc. Although the idea of human, all too human evil being the necessary and sufficient explanation is catching on too.

IME whenever anything gets framed as exclusively either or, I know I'm missing at least half the picture. I do think possession and Insanity(temporary and otherwise) occur, In nature a creature's predators have ways of being invisible to their prey. It stands to reason to me that humans are no different. We're herd animals who have our predators too, and we're just as blind to them as a deer to a tiger stalking in the trees. Not being able to perceive it till its too late is the entire point. :shrug: Also precious few in our "society" seem particularly eager to exonerate anything:unsure:
 

Lark

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Messages
29,610
I mean....it's not like his followers that are still alive/incarcerated haven't like discussed this with anyone in the 50 years since. And they all pretty much say exactly ^^ this.

No I don't think this was like Project Mayhem/Fight Club nor do I think it's some grand conspiracy. I think it had much more to do with the time than anything else - there was a lot going on all at once, very easy to manipulate young people. I think Children of God is far worse than the Manson family, and it started around the same time. Rose McGowan was born into that cult - it may explain a lot.

I don't see parallels to the Son of Sam murders. But I think it's plausible David Berkowitz didn't act alone.

The group that Maury or whatever he was called suggested the Son of Sam killers where part of was called "The Children" and the Manson's cult was "The Family", not that I think they where linked but more part of a trend or scene at the time, that guru guy who invented "The Process" probably had ideas that Manson or others piggy backed onto or found useful.

People recruiting or exploiting people as "assets" whether its because they are young, impressionable or mentally ill is nothing new either.

I found interesting was whether, irregardless of the origins in satanism, amoralism and some sort of sadism, that the drug trafficking, snuff films and money mattered more towards the finish and things evolved from there. Its different but in the ROI the two or three big organized criminal gangs which exist had their origins in pseudo-political Trotskyite and Republic factions which started out doing bank heists for some political purpose and eventually just decided it was all about the money.

There was a certain "template" involved in some of the killers experience and their deaths which has a kind of plausibility for the version of events that suggests there was an organized aspect besides what was trending.

Like they got these guys involved in violent, sadistic, ritualistic acts perpetuated on victims, so they know its not all a bluff, that this type of thing is possible and happens, then they tell them if they ever rat them out to the authorities they are going to do it to their nearest and dearest, details of whom they've provided in pictures or something to their partners in crime in the first place.

I wouldnt be surprised if these groups evolved into criminal operators, dealing in whatever ill shit permitted them to black mail, control or kill and make money doing it. Either that or criminal elements resembling them will have learned from them as a sort of example.
 
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