Lord of the Rings TV series

The Cat · Sep 7, 2022

yeghor · Sep 8, 2022

Galadriel saves Gandalf

yeghor · Sep 9, 2022

The Rings of Power is a masterpiece - by the Woke Critic

Totenkindly · Sep 9, 2022

Amazon's $1 billion LOTR 'Rings of Power' is losing the viewer battle to HBO's 'House of the Dragon’

Hostile reactions to LOTR TV series leave Amazon fighting a bigger battle for viewers than HBO's 'Dragon'

www.yahoo.com

I'm not entirely sure if one can gauge off the "popular" scoring sites out there because of the concerted effort to review bomb the series. Word of mouth (at least what I've heard) is actually far better than scoring sites they refer to.

However, having seen three episodes of "House of the Dragon" and two episodes of this show (after having not really asked for either), I would have to say that the former is better written and produced and acted IMO if one feels the need to compare.

I get the impression both shows are better than Wheel of Time.

I enjoyed Rings of Power so far about as much as I enjoyed the first two episodes of The Witcher.

None of them are in the same class as Better Call Saul or Breaking Bad or Six Feet Under or Severance, etc.

SearchingforPeace · Sep 9, 2022

GoT first few seasons were pretty much up there with the best of TV. That HotD is even close to that level is amazing.

I liked the Witcher well enough, but it wasn't the same quality and is a huge drop off from the best of TV standard. HotD is better than that so far.

WoT should be canceled and the rights returned. Maybe in 20 years someone could do it right.

RoP is better than WoT, but it seems like its ceiling is the Witcher, which isn't bad, but......

A lot of hard-core Witcher fans didn't like the show much. I read the books, but didn't play the video games. It was good enough, but....

RoP is making huge changes that didn't need to be made, which is a problem. Maybe it will improve, but.... it feels like fanfic that almost any fan could improve upon.

Totenkindly · Sep 9, 2022

SearchingforPeace said:
GoT first few seasons were pretty much up there with the best of TV. That HotD is even close to that level is amazing.

I liked the Witcher well enough, but it wasn't the same quality and is a huge drop off from the best of TV standard. HotD is better than that so far.

WoT should be canceled and the rights returned. Maybe in 20 years someone could do it right.

RoP is better than WoT, but it seems like its ceiling is the Witcher, which isn't bad, but......

A lot of hard-core Witcher fans didn't like the show much. I read the books, but didn't play the video games. It was good enough, but....

RoP is making huge changes that didn't need to be made, which is a problem. Maybe it will improve, but.... it feels like fanfic that almost any fan could improve upon.

yes, that sounds about right.

And I agree on GoT -- I consider the first four seasons to be some of the best TV I've seen as well.

I didn't read the Witcher or play the video games. I was kind of curious about the show but obviously I haven't really gotten hooked enough to get through a season. It felt kind of like a more polished version of Xena or something. (But maybe I'm wrong, I really didn't watch Xena much either.)

I'm kind of watching RoP because of interest in Tolkien and just being willing to make the time, but I can't say I am feeling compelled to watch like I was with early GoT. I had made the comment about fanfic in my early comments too, it feels like really expensive fan fic that you would have simply been reading online twenty years ago before prestige TV became a thing. Like, what happens if we rearrange some of the characters and places and throw in some additional elements, what kind of story could we make up?

yeghor · Sep 10, 2022

I've never warmed up to the Witcher games or the tv series, Witcher feels like an aggressive dick in the games, the machismo becomes too obnoxious for me, and Henry Cavill plays him too woodenly in the series, I think they should've gone for someone truly primally aggressive.

They also throw in terminology like "You are bound with the rule of blah blah, ha ha ha" etc that don't make any sense to someone who hasn't been exposed to the game or the novel and it is too slow-paced.

Rings Of Power Shills BLAST The Critical Drinker & Amazon Makes PROMISE To Fix Galadriel!

yeghor · Sep 10, 2022

LLoyd Owen reminds me of Marc Singer for some reason.

Vendrah · Sep 10, 2022

I watched it today so I wanna give my own opinions here.

I think the show is "ok", but it is not as much epic as the film - both trilogy were. Even knowing it is a series, the events seem to develop very slowly. They skipped or summed up a lot of things in the beginning that could be great stories of their own - I mean, they could have picked up and started the story from these points. Original LOTR started the story by barely summing up anything that it come before (just a short story of 'there were once some rings given to important people who got corrupted by them') and did it well, while their resume was specifically long and yet a skip of a good bunch of stuff. I expected the story to pick up a faster pace at the beginning, but after 3 episodes, which sums 3 hours, very few important things happened on the others 2h 30 min - which is an entire movie plot. Even considering it as a series, it feels incredibly slow to me, and Tolkien 'LOTR' universe have enough content for plenty of movies or plenty of seasons without any need to be slow or even rushing a bit.

- I think the visual aspect of the movie and musics+sounds are quite good, although music from the movies were more epic.
- Galadriel seems to me an entire different person - not only on actor but also on personality - than the one from the movies. For Elrond, it feels the same, it feels like a completely different person. I don't like this, I wish they were represent more closer to their former movies.
- I didn't read the books yet I did listen to their resumes on you tube for hours, so I have a good notion of the general aspects of the story. But even in my own superficial notion I see there are deviations, for example no Istari (more or less the specific name for 'mage') did come to middle earth by meteor.
- So far the hobbits role on the general story of the series seems to be useless and it seems like you could remove all the hobbits scene and could still understand the plot perfectly - it feels like a filler.
- Racial diversity at this point feels... well, I have mixed feelings about it, it firstly feels incredibly awkward, strange, out of context, however the original movies and perhaps the books themselves were racist on a sense (that is controversial) and they are "trying to fix it", but its complicated specially if the original text is.
- I don't think there is any feminine agenda being pushed here. Just because Galadriel were picked doesn't mean its pushing a feminine agenda. For that era, the best choices would be major characters that we already know for the other movies, and that would be Galadriel or Elrond. In my opinion, it would be better to cut the hobbit time and put more time to Elron. Just because it is LOTR it doesn't mean hobbits needs to play a major role in every sequence, because as far as I know for a lot of the general Tolkien story they simply don't.

EDIT: Another aspect I miss is named "mystery" and curiosity.
On the earlier LOTR movies, specially the first one, we were provided with a lot of implicit questions and not much answers. It really invited out curiosity to watch further the movie to find out the answers, and the movie slowly answers some of them through the story. So for example the Nazgul were mysterious in a sense but became more clear early; Sauro was more mysterious as well. On this series, they simply throw the answers before even the questions arrives and I don't feel any sense or instigation of curiosity.
Also close to this, there were a sense of epicness on each new place the LOTR movies did introduced - firstly the shire, then elf places, etc... The hobbity trilogy was somewhat similar. On this series, it looks like they introduce a place by playing an epic music and showing a panoramic view for 20-30 seconds and that's it, and a lot of places on the trilogy feels like they are the same and looks similar, yet they are from different cultures. Numenor looks an incredibly generic kingdom on this series (whereas, for example, Gondor at LOTR movies look quite original), I expected Numenor to be shown as more epic, more different and also with more questions to be later answered, and yet it is just a kingdom like any other on fiction.

I have a few other thoughts but these are the main ones.
I don't think its bad, but I wished it were more.

yeghor · Sep 11, 2022

LOTR: Arwen Nazgul Chase (HD)

Totenkindly · Sep 11, 2022

Episode 3 was better. Still an occasional piece of dumbassery (the symbol of Sauron reveal felt somewhat like the stupid dagger from TROS, although I guess since the symbol itself is the message, it's marginally passable), and again we see an elf doing somewhat superman-like maneuvers, even if he doesn't actually know how to properly use an axe to chop down a tree. (Then again, whenever did a Sylvan elf ever learn how to chop down a tree?)

The pre-hobbits are not as kind as we might have assumed, the migrators do have a "leave stragglers" behind policy that apparently has resulted in some significant losses over time. I actually like this; it also gives more understanding of how third age hobbits took comfort and pleasure in having an established permanent home, even if a bit too homebody-ish.

The dialogue wasn't as clumsy as e2, although still not top-notch. However, we get the idea that Numenor has both pro-elf and anti-elf factions, and it'll be interesting as a mystery to see how that resolves. The same goes for the real identity of Halbrand, where there are a few possibilities... and also who Aran is, of the title, who didn't really look like an orc.

Also, why the orcs building tunnels? Is it a stupid plot point or is it actually thought out? These orcs are actually vulnerable to sunlight, so some reasons exist. Meanwhile, these prisoner elves really suck in terms of knowing how to join forces for a fight.

I was reminded of our discussion of horses and women in the Feminism thread this week on the forum, as we see Galadriel smile broadly for maybe the FIRST TIME in this series as she is riding in a dress in a cheesy panning shot across fields and along the shores on the back of a beautiful and majestic horse. Tell me again the trope doesn't exist? She's almost hitting existential bliss in this montage.

Again, I have more of a view of this as somewhat enjoyable fan-fic and am not expecting it to hew specifically to Tolkien's main versions of his characters and lore.

Totenkindly · Sep 11, 2022

Comments on some of Vendrah's points.

Vendrah said:
I think the show is "ok", but it is not as much epic as the film - both trilogy were....I expected the story to pick up a faster pace at the beginning, but after 3 episodes, which sums 3 hours, very few important things happened on the others 2h 30 min - which is an entire movie plot. Even considering it as a series, it feels incredibly slow to me, and Tolkien 'LOTR' universe have enough content for plenty of movies or plenty of seasons without any need to be slow or even rushing a bit.

It's a TV show. The pace feels fine to me, but I have watched a lot of TV including some REALLY slow-pace series that were pretty decent (like HBO's "The Leftovers" and "The Outsider"). Even GoT has a pretty slow pace overall. I think the difference is the level of detail -- I feel like GoT had far more granularity to it, whereas Rings of Powers still feels kind of like a "high concept" show that is moving slowly. That might be some of the issue. Are we getting real bang for our buck with the slower pace? I'm not yet convinced. At least Episode 3 did introduce some "mysteries" to resolve.

Vendrah said:
- Galadriel seems to me an entire different person - not only on actor but also on personality - than the one from the movies. For Elrond, it feels the same, it feels like a completely different person. I don't like this, I wish they were represent more closer to their former movies.

She is a different iteration of her character, once that we don't see as much of because Tolkien only covers her early history in more of a historical summary format rather than actual storytelling as he covers her in LotR, where she has been a leader in an established area of Middle Earth she can focus on nurturing. Elendil says in e3 that her eyes remind him of his children -- a daughter who runs fast and a son who runs blind. This is a far more single-minded Galadriel far more reminiscent of her actual kin -- a cousin of Feanor (of the Silmaril debacle), whose arrogance and headstrong nature lead that branch of the family to disaster. This is probably somewhat closer to the Galadriel of that time period, she is the only female Noldor in leadership of that lineage who wanted to go to Middle Earth to create a place she could rule. The TV series has modified this into her being the only one to persist in the dangers of Sauron and she is motivated by centuries of pain and loss.

Vendrah said:
- I didn't read the books yet I did listen to their resumes on you tube for hours, so I have a good notion of the general aspects of the story. But even in my own superficial notion I see there are deviations, for example no Istari (more or less the specific name for 'mage') did come to middle earth by meteor.

One might assume they didn't. I don't know if Tolkien's text actually says HOW they arrived, I would either by boat or that they simply became known as they wandered.

Vendrah said:
- So far the hobbits role on the general story of the series seems to be useless and it seems like you could remove all the hobbits scene and could still understand the plot perfectly - it feels like a filler.

Maybe. I'm assuming that The Stranger plot point will become more important over time. It's only episode 3, and they are dealing with multiple subplots.

Vendrah said:
- Racial diversity at this point feels... well, I have mixed feelings about it, it firstly feels incredibly awkward, strange, out of context, however the original movies and perhaps the books themselves were racist on a sense (that is controversial) and they are "trying to fix it", but its complicated specially if the original text is.

I don't feel like Tolkien much focused on skin color in his writing. He was just writing a story which had a lot of Germanic and Norse elements, so he was coming from a particular background; he wasn't really thinking sociopolitically. The world has changed a lot since then and his stories are now global, so of course they would seek to incorporate more diversified elements as part of connecting with a global audience.

I do like to have it clear where different lineages come from geographically so it makes sense, so my only issue so far has been just tossing in people with various skin hues but who seemingly just sprang up within one geographically located culture, and that's not really how skin color works... people have to migrate into those areas from their own area. Like, where did the dark-skinned elves migrate from? I'm just curious.

If they ever do an actually good Earthsea adaptation, or another fantasy story not from a white background, I wonder how that would be incorporated. (LeGuin's works had characters of either dark or red skin, centered in the archipelagos, although there were whitish skinned Kurds I think they were called from the North... Tenar was white-skinned.)

Vendrah said:
On the earlier LOTR movies, specially the first one, we were provided with a lot of implicit questions and not much answers. It really invited out curiosity to watch further the movie to find out the answers, and the movie slowly answers some of them through the story. So for example the Nazgul were mysterious in a sense but became more clear early; Sauro was more mysterious as well. On this series, they simply throw the answers before even the questions arrives and I don't feel any sense or instigation of curiosity.

I guess I never had that because I knew the books so well. I was more irritated by the films for simplifying and/or "ruining" book elements I found more elegant or interesting. Anyway, as noted, more mystery is showing up in e3 here. I was kinda eh on the first two episodes in that regard. Maybe this will improve.

Vendrah said:
Numenor looks an incredibly generic kingdom on this series (whereas, for example, Gondor at LOTR movies look quite original), I expected Numenor to be shown as more epic, more different and also with more questions to be later answered, and yet it is just a kingdom like any other on fiction.

You thought Numenor was more generic? Numenor was the SOURCE for Minas Tirith, being founded by Elendil and heirs after the land's destruction (as a counterpart to our Atlantis). Anything there came from Numenor. I thought it was perfect, as you could see all the elements that Gondor later incorporated as remnants of their time in Numenor. A nice callback to where Gondor came from.

Julius_Van_Der_Beak · Sep 11, 2022

I don't feel like Tolkien much focused on skin color in his writing. He was just writing a story which had a lot of Germanic and Norse elements, so he was coming from a particular background; he wasn't really thinking sociopolitically. The world has changed a lot since then and his stories are now global, so of course they would seek to incorporate more diversified elements as part of connecting with a global audience.

I did find it interesting that the section in the Silmarillion on Numenor had an anti-imperialist subtext. Something about how they came to the shores of Middle Earth at first to teach but then it just became about domination. I'm paraphrasing here.

yeghor · Sep 12, 2022

Another moving scene from the trilogy

Arwen's Vision

JocktheMotie · Sep 12, 2022

I do find it funny they turned Galadriel into a mildly racist horse girl.

yeghor · Sep 12, 2022

JocktheMotie said:
I do find it funny they turned Galadriel into a mildly racist horse girl.

Probably one of the producers is projecting their personality characteristics onto Galadriel for self-aggrandization and having and ego-rush whenever they see her on TV.

Totenkindly · Sep 13, 2022

yeghor said:
Probably one of the producers is projecting their personality characteristics onto Galadriel for self-aggrandization and having and ego-rush whenever they see her on TV.

Yeah. That's got to be it.

DiscoBiscuit · Sep 13, 2022

Having read the books, I won't subject myself to watching Amazon wear Tolkien's legacy as a skin suit in an effort squeeze one more dollar out of our childhood nostalgia.

yeghor · Sep 13, 2022

Like this scene from the triology as well.

Aragorn's Coronation

yeghor · Sep 13, 2022

Totenkindly said:
Yeah. That's got to be it.

It's the producer's story of how they were a priveleged chauvinistic white male and then they matured, got enlightened and become more feminine and woke.

The fans hating macho Galadriel will have to come to terms with their own machismo cause it was themselves they were hating all along, and then they will become wiser and woke too, just as the producer did.

They are projecting their own story on Galadriel. The problem is Galadriel in LoTR was never a hypermasculine supremacist person to begin with. My understanding is that she was more of an ambitious leader with thirst for knowledge first than a warrior. What set her apart from her Elven peers was she displayed greater wisdom. In DnD terms, she had more of a Druid/Witch quality and progression to her character than a Warrior/Fighter.

Moreover, Elves were introduced as more spiritually aware beings than humans in LoTR, less concerned with material wealth as they don't age and die of ageing, so they are less in a hurry than men, less destructive on their environment, basically wiser than humans and calmer and less anxious as time and death are not an issue.

The Elves were like Ainur in spirit; they loved all beauty of nature, especially water, the Sea and the stars, since they were the first things they saw; as a consequence Ulmo and Varda were the Ainur closest to them. They were marked by an insatiable curiosity and a desire of learning and creating.

They detested all evil and were usually more resistant to being corrupted than Men, unless evil tricked them with fair form, like Annatar. Conversely, their work harmed evil, like lembas and the Elven rope that brought pain to Gollum's skin. They were, however, susceptible to greed, pride and jealousy, as exemplified by the story of the House of Fëanor, or the jealous and unjustified hatred of Saeros toward Túrin. [24]

So them making Galadriel a hypermasculine smug brute just to tell men that they should evolve like her too is a bit of hijacking the original character for one's own ends.

Lord of the Rings TV series

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