Alpha males

aeon said:

Oh, they most certainly do. They love their talk of alpha chads and beta cucks.



Certainly not, and they would be the first to tell you that. Declaring the alpha as something they are not is a common mode of expression of their self-loathing.

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But nothing at all about them is alpha. They can't get laid - I'm fairly sure that's alpha step 1, although they do have the misogyny required for self-professed alphas. The occasional mass murder outbreaks are just incidental.

Don’t over complicate it. No one is saying humans are wolves, I’m pretty sure the term was appropriated to refer to men who happen to be more dominant or prone to taking a leadership role in social or work situations. There are also alpha women.

Doctor Anaximander said:

Don’t over complicate it. No one is saying humans are wolves, I’m pretty sure the term was appropriated to refer to men who happen to be more dominant or prone to taking a leadership role in social or work situations. There are also alpha women.

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True. But I don't think many alpha men advertise this.

ceecee said:

But nothing at all about them is alpha. They can't get laid - I'm fairly sure that's alpha step 1, although they do have the misogyny required for self-professed alphas. The occasional mass murder outbreaks are just incidental.

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I suggest you reread my post again, because my sense is you are not understanding what I said. In particular, first sentence, second paragraph. When I quoted you and replied, I agreed with you. Iʼm not sure why you have reasserted your statement as if there is a point of contention when I have already agreed and affirmed what you said.

Just to be clear, they use the term, but not in reference to themselves. They are very vocal about not being that, as part of their expression of the internal experience of self-loathing. They are other to the imagined lives of the Chads who get laid, but not so pathetic and desperate so as to sink to the level of being a beta cuck.

VerilyVinx said:

Actually, I find the concept of "Alpha Male" quite useful. I really like it. Why? Because it helps me pinpoint the people I don't want to get involved with. Thank you, Alpha Male. I owe you saving me from experiencing countless bad friendships, dates, and conversations.

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Same, I think they're boring.

The logic here is a bit flawed. I mean...yes, the wolf structure has been discredited. "Alpha Male" human stems from a concept about another species which operates differently than humans. Comparing humans to wolves is like comparing apples to oranges. This means just because wolf alphas are discredited, doesn't mean human alphas are. Alpha Male is still a human social construct regardless. This role exists regardless of whether anyone likes it or not, or whether it's healthy or toxic. There are much better reasons/methods for abasing the alpha male in society than this angle.

Enigma said:

The logic here is a bit flawed. I mean...yes, the wolf structure has been discredited. "Alpha Male" human stems from a concept about another species which operates differently than humans. Comparing humans to wolves is like comparing apples to oranges. This means just because wolf alphas are discredited, doesn't mean human alphas are. Alpha Male is still a human social construct regardless. This role exists regardless of whether anyone likes it or not, or whether it's healthy or toxic. There are much better reasons/methods for abasing the alpha male in society than this angle.

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Oh? Do tell of some of them.

Julius_Van_Der_Beak said:

Oh? Do tell of some of them.

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There are plenty and they are pretty common sense imo. I didn't think I'd need to. Start with Toxic Masculinity and go from there I guess. A lot of others here touched on points also.

Enigma said:

There are plenty and they are pretty common sense imo. I didn't think I'd need to. Start with Toxic Masculinity and go from there I guess. A lot of others here touched on points also.

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You know a lot of people get triggered by the phrase toxic masculinity. I wouldn't use such a phrase in trying to explain what is wrong with the concept of alpha males. I think I'd stick with demonstrating why even wolves don't believe in this way. This all rests on appeal to nature, so showing that nature doesn't actually act that way is a rather powerful rebuttal I think. Much more so than using loaded words like patriarchy and toxic masculinity (even though I think both of those terms describe things that are real).

If I never went to college and never encountered stuff like that before, I'd probably be turned off by that kind of academic feminist lingo. I think I'd be more receptive in hearing about how wild animals didn't actually act the way I thought they did. To me it seems that the appeal to nature is really the most powerful defense, so it seems that this is the thing to chip away.

The reasons against the concept are evidently not common sense, since many people still believe in the concept. It seems to me you are underestimating how many people believe in this concept and the degree to which it shapes how they choose to live their life. It's probably one of the lynchpins of the entire conservative ideology, lol. It doesn't make sense to treat it, as you are, as a silly concept that nobody takes seriously, when plenty of people do take it seriously.

Julius_Van_Der_Beak said:

You know a lot of people get triggered by the phrase toxic masculinity. I wouldn't use such a phrase in trying to explain what is wrong with the concept of alpha males. I think I'd stick with demonstrating why even wolves don't believe in this way. This all rests on appeal to nature, so showing that nature doesn't actually act that way is a rather powerful rebuttal I think. Much more so than using loaded words like patriarchy and toxic masculinity (even though I think both of those terms describe things that are real).

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I don't particularly care whether they get triggered by the term. "Alpha male" in the modern day use of the word and "toxic masculinity" are basically the same things. If people are too sensitive to handle honest statements then that's their own problem. I gain nothing from walking on eggshells, and honestly I don't think anyone else truly does either. People need to toughen up a bit these days.

As for the wolves - I still see it as the equivalent of saying "even parrots don't act this way, so why do cows?" We are a different species. We have different needs, survival mechanisms, etc. The wolf argument is a double-edged sword; when you look at the flip side of the coin, is rape okay because wolves do it? Of course not, but if you reject this argument and accept the former, you're inconsistent in your reasoning. Rather than modeling our behaviors off of other species, we should be able to form proper conclusions based upon cause and effect, pros and cons. When some kind of social construct inflicts damage onto those we socialize with, that should be what tells us something. Animal ways are also flawed, after all...they do harm one another.

Enigma said:

I don't particularly care whether they get triggered by the term. "Alpha male" in the modern day use of the word and "toxic masculinity" are basically the same things. If people are too sensitive to handle honest statements then that's their own problem. I gain nothing from walking on eggshells, and honestly I don't think anyone else truly does either. People need to toughen up a bit these days.

As for the wolves - I still see it as the equivalent of saying "even parrots don't act this way, so why do cows?" We are a different species. We have different needs, survival mechanisms, etc. The wolf argument is a double-edged sword; when you look at the flip side of the coin, is rape okay because wolves do it? Of course not, but if you reject this argument and accept the former, you're inconsistent in your reasoning. Rather than modeling our behaviors off of other species, we should be able to form proper conclusions based upon cause and effect, pros and cons. When some kind of social construct inflicts damage onto those we socialize with, that should be what tells us something. Animal ways are also flawed, after all...they do harm one another.

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But they're the ones making the wolf argument in the first place! They're the ones arguing that all of this is natural. And yeah, these people have fragile egos. In my experience, ignoring people's sensitivities or fragile egos is really something you should do at your own peril. Assuming that people need to toughen up (although I do agree with that to an extent in some contexts... one's beliefs aren't sancrosanct things that everyone should have to bend over backwards to not end up saying or doing something that contradicts it) usually has negative consequences, because volatile people tend to be pretty loud when hurt and rather insistent on getting their way.

Julius_Van_Der_Beak said:

But they're the ones making the wolf argument in the first place! They're the ones arguing that all of this is natural. And yeah, these people have fragile egos. In my experience, ignoring people's sensitivities or fragile egos is really something you should do at your own peril. Assuming that people need to toughen up (although I do agree with that to an extent in some contexts... one's beliefs aren't sancrosanct things that everyone should have to bend over backwards to not end up saying or doing something that contradicts it) usually has negative consequences, because volatile people tend to be pretty loud when hurt and rather insistent on getting their way.

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Yeah, the ones making the wolf argument in the first place...are also the ones who are dumb enough to try to be alphas in the first place, lol. They're also the ones who are dumb enough to think that is what women in general want. The competitions and such those guys have are not really for women, they're for other men. The root / core of the issue is ego / insecurity. If wolves weren't being used as an argument...something else would. Ultimately, if you can prove it's destructive and thus undesirable regardless of who or what species does it then you don't really need much else, do you? I mean...what's to stop them from looking at lions then and saying "be da tawp lionz" after wolves are invalidated, too?

Yeah...let children throw their tantrums. I'm still not giving them their way. They don't intimidate me. If they can't handle the conversation they can move right along and I won't lose any sleep over it. Will probably just laugh at them until they get mad and continue to do nothing, realizing they have no true power: exactly the abasement their ego needs.

This is such a loaded topic I wasn't sure I wanted to say anything, but I will.

Everyone likes to label things.
Everyone wants to be special.
Everyone wants to one up someone else.

Alpha by definition is top of the heap. You can't have 55 out of 70 be alpha. That's just plain dumb.

True power doesn't mean you flex it. You assist those who are lacking in it. A good leader has to be a good follower and a good servant first.

Those who are truly in that "alpha" realm will never use that word. You will never hear them talk like they are all that big. Their actions speak louder than words.

When you see "alpha" you know it.

An alpha does not a movement make.

Like was said before, real men are what we need today and they have become so far removed from society that the idea is replaced by the alpha idea. And, it's a poor comparison much less substitute.

And, most people don't know real men anymore either. Real men have been ousted from society because they are not feminine enough. That began in the 80s.

Something to consider.

It's kind of like hunting an animal to extinction and then complaining you don't have any left.

Oh wait. It is exactly the same.