4 with a false 3 wing at the very least?

[Galena]

Posting it here because it's transparently for the purpose of typing myself better:

Can we compare perceptions of 4w5 vs 4w3, and sx/so vs sx/sp, and how these things would look in their different possible combinations? Those are really the only things that are questions for me anymore, and just sometimes, like today.

Thank you. I will be able to post more later. Large questionnaires are daunting for me, so I think I'll go for one of the mini ones I've seen showing up here and there.

 

[Galena]

Because I am apparently this bad at finishing questionnaires, I'm just going to drag in a bunch of personality-esque posts I've already made recently, like a lazy butt except only where this thread is concerned, because I guess I've said plenty lately on these exact topics just elsewhere.

All together now:

Why I've been leaning more So for my second recently yet am still rather sketchy about it is: I could absolutely say that I keep my Sp needs filled in so that I can leave them behind for Sx ones, because without the Sp, prefer it or not, one is in physical danger and you can't fulfill anything if you're incapacitated or dead. I'm also sensitive to the possibility of danger because anxiety, which is in a realm outside of type.

But beyond the very basics of what it takes to keep out of objective danger just for today really, most markings of self pres I take on aren't really even because I care about them - it's because I'm attuned to it being something very important to other people, not just to themselves but something they judge each other on. It may be shitty but I really fear it's true that many people are inclined to trust and support and yes, love others more who are materially in their own "league" of self-preservation resources. I'm annoyingly sensitive to pressure to own what other people own, and there's a conflict there with actually wanting very little and a private inclination toward physically paring down life to extremes. Status gets under my skin, and a pull to be at least as secure and comfortable as my peers - because even if I don't actually want all the physical pieces of that, being settled in the social dimension of it would just be so comfortable. Oh and here's more social worrying right here: nervousness that people I admire might read this paragraph and lose respect for me!

(Serious. I'm not as negative as anything here might make me out to be, and don't want to be so. This is just the topic of instinctual variants alone...this typing is the hardest for me for a reason! The whole instinct realm in general just isn't where most of my strengths lie.)

The above could have to do with my parents both being strong, obvious Sp-heavy people if not doms, so that was the type of stuff they wanted most from their kids and that would make them proud - and so it became urgent to me not for the reasons it was for them, but as a way of showing them that there wasn't something wrong with me.

My physical upkeep skills are also really split between the parts of it that are visible and the private parts of it that other people won't notice - in the former realm I'm on top of things and skilled, but in the latter realm there's a lot of stuff I don't want or have, don't do, or don't know how to do...and secretly don't care much or am averse to thinking about it until someone else takes a peek inside. Some of it I honestly resent, especially stuff around taking care of the body - and can get angry about them and push my limits out of spite. Even some of the visible things, I've only learned to set boundaries on them because they reached a critical burnout point or because I saw other people emphasizing them and realized that it contributed to their respectability via respecting themselves - examples being protecting one's time and energy, and standing up for oneself. Since I was young I've gotten down on myself about what seemed like a deficient self-protection instinct where I didn't even have certain unconscious reflexes that other people didn't seem to have to think about or put an effort into learning about. But on a third hard, syn-flow and contra-flow are concepts that exist, and there is no question which is the easier fit...ugh.

So it's like, which do I really build to free myself for Sx? A basis of self-preservation? Or is it really, honestly, a basis of not feeling like a social outcast? That's not something I'm asking you to answer, just the leading question for me in the instinctual realm, that only I can answer. On a more surface level, I also am needled by what seems to be big differences between just my sort of voice and how I behave and relate in group situations compared to those who are solidly Soc-last. I find them admirable, really, because I feel very different from how they've revealed that they experience it all.

As far as longing goes, I want to say that I don't have that and just have goals and envies. But I do, and just dwelled on them a lot more in the form of longings when I was younger and the space between myself and what I wanted was there more involuntarily. Not that involuntary blocks can't happen just as much to adults - my situation is just lucky in that they've been cleared rather linearly with time.

The form I guess it takes now is that I don't allow longing to remain longing for long (lol), and sometimes (often) the period where it exists as such gets cut so brief that I don't notice it. I either convert it into a goal and go get it (healthy) or repress the feeling if I don't have confidence that I'm ready for what I long for (not so healthy). I also repress it if I am working toward a goal and it's taking some time or challenging work - just try to become a machine and feel the love again later (very unhealthy, including physically!). Seems like I have shame attached to the feeling of longing and that's why I avoid it - I have that with whole spectrum of sadness in general, rarely being conscious of those emotions.

As far as I know, Sx can also be the perfect enemy of intimacy - that capacity, even if there is a positive pole on the other end of it, has actually caused me a lot of fear over the years that I was uniquely unsuited to pair bonding, and led me to type as sp/so without hesitance the very first time I discovered the instincts. Claiming Sx felt kind of like it would be hand-waving my issues, and kind of a slap in the face to a couple of people who have felt isolated in my presence in the past.

The reason "objectification" isn't a trigger word for me is because it already was, a long time ago. I've fought with it until it no longer had the shock and offense that it once did.

The unhealthy relationships 4s can develop with the personal creations that mean the most to them, their works, and dreams are known in the literature to be not so conducive to finalizing those works. I don't know about any other 4s, but the grossest thing is realizing that something close to my heart is on the verge of devolving into just an ego/image prop, where if the issue isn't rooted out and resolved, then even abandoning it for good would be healthier than what it would become if I just kept following the bliss without thinking critically - and there is a deep part in me that doesn't ever want to have to think critically. Which I think is one of the darkest and most dangerous things about me.

One thing I've learned from this exhausting week is how fast you can learn so much about where you're at socially by simply initiating more.

Apparently attracting people works for me the same way my writing has attracted people back when I posted it online - I'm not aware that I don't put the content out there enough for most people to notice, and another big faction is just too confused to respond, but I always get a small number of really enthusiastic people who are drawn in hard.

If there's also an element of people being actively put off, I'm no longer anxious about that - I know the worst reasons that could possibly be for, and have gotten to the point where I look them in the face and have an understanding with them. If someone got in my face and confronted me right out about them, I'd probably just nod and say "yeah, absolutely I am; it's a work in progress". Which isn't the same way I used to react in those rare moments. I also know what I have inside that I can draw from to counterbalance that side and get better.

Interesting angle. I actually play it straight. It's as if I have to talk to feel and am driven to vocalize more the more intense the feeling motive is, until I realize that isn't true - that I have talked *over* the feeling to the point that it has retreated. I genuinely think out loud, though, as in verbalizing thoughts and logic genuinely helps me to complete them. So, I suppose confusing thinking for feeling may be the issue there. tl;dr I just talk too much, and if anyone thinks differently - GOOD, I've fooled them!

In the early stages of a project or job I might appear to have extremely comprehension of abstraction, and this stage is a wall of fear because I know how this comes across to some people, but after this stage, the mechanical questions stop and I do imagine and create new things independently, bouncing off this solid framework. If the leader and I are especially different and a tension emerges for that reason, I am willing to talk through it - in fact, I will probably initiate.

In my last job, I have received feedback both that I am someone who can do "worker bee" style abnormally fast (once I have the workflow nailed down) and am a competent investigator who will find and fix little lynchpins in a more abstract project that the requester didn't even know they needed. In all of my jobs, I have always found my place although it's not always the first process I am placed in.

If this sounds defensive, it is because as a child, I was mistaken for someone who demands micromanagement.

The whim that led me to tag it as SP this time is related to thinking about what my type would look like if I dismissed functions and went by dichotomies...ISFP. Actually, more solidly ISFP than if we use functions, though even then it comes out as the same. While Se over Si is a question but not very hard to answer, things happen when we think about Fi. While in the end I do think it is my root and my earliest form, I would seem to be worse at it behaviorally (insert ton of posts from tons of members about how behavior can be confusing as a typing basis) than what is commonly known as Fe.

More than I am an S subtype, I am just S - it's how I learn and see the world. And more strongly than I am any F function, I am just F. I have built worlds to hide my P, but I am that, too. Introversion is often taken as just a given for me, so obvious it's not worth thinking about too hard. But, in the dichotomy space, I suspect it might actually be the most tenuous.

As someone who has, a lot - it’s personality, perhaps. I’m unattached and have a lesser than typical drive to change that - and absolutely none to have kids. And yet, I have an almost insatiable bandwidth for activity and don’t spend much time in my place of residence. I’m someone who might just walk around the city for hours and miles if there’s nothing going on, just to relax. And when I am at home, I’m writing or checking in with my long-distance friends - stuff that takes up very little space. I do like home to be pretty, but don’t start missing space until we get down to sizes too small for a single desk chair. Or really wear anything that absolutely needs room to stretch. I have eased up on the square footage minimalism because I finally found my limit in the last few years and am also rather burned out for other reasons, but my latest place (as of today, actually) is still under 1000ft^2 for sure, and I'm thinking nothing of it.

Ugh, I think that's it. Down to the dry heaves of it. Any earlier than that would be me posting in the obfuscating throes of burnout. K. Posting...

 

[EJCC]

I understand the struggle of “am I embodying this trait because of pressure growing up, or because it’s the real me?” I also understand avoiding the idea of being a particular type on principle.

That said: you strongly do not vibe sp-last to me. My inclination is sp/sx or sp/so, because sx/sp descriptions seem much more... explosive?... than I’ve seen you. The way in which you plan your life transitions is far too measured, calculated, and grounded in practical needs (leverage, security, housing, money) to not be rooted in sp. It’s particularly noteworthy coming from an ISFP 4, a type that could be much flightier and impractical - but in your case manifests so responsibly that you’ve mistyped as ISFJ and sometimes vibed to me like a fellow 1.

You do seem very balanced in your wings. Not sure which one you are. You vibe w5 but also describe some very w3 processes.

 

[Galena]

I understand the struggle of “am I embodying this trait because of pressure growing up, or because it’s the real me?” I also understand avoiding the idea of being a particular type on principle.

Thank you for responding. I wonder how much that formative pressure could potentially impact a personality to a point of being integrated into it and becoming typeable, so to speak. And then, we are familiar with how it can not sincerely do so and end up actually muddying the waters. It's really hard to say.

That said: you strongly do not vibe sp-last to me. My inclination is sp/sx or sp/so, because sx/sp descriptions seem much more... explosive?... than I’ve seen you.

My answer to this is: goooooood. It's working. I've come a long way in this, although the anger is still there and I don't think it's changed in volume really at all. My start time on this forum happens to have coincided with a very hard shift in this.

The way in which you plan your life transitions is far too measured, calculated, and grounded in practical needs (leverage, security, housing, money) to not be rooted in sp. It’s particularly noteworthy coming from an ISFP 4, a type that could be much flightier and impractical - but in your case manifests so responsibly that you’ve mistyped as ISFJ and sometimes vibed to me like a fellow 1.

I will again say good, but it comes out a bit weaker this time. I'm not sure if it points to or away self-pres, but these practical needs utterly terrify me, and that is what I fight for them out of. Hell, just having a body is terrifying to me alone when I really think about it. And terror is not good for calculation. What I see myself do is more like sledgehammer-like obsessive strikes at no more than a couple risks at a time. These leave craters, such as burnout or the depletion of a different resource to fulfill the one I laser-focused on - things that more calculation could have prevented. I'm actually really surprised I don't receive more criticism on my planning skills, and often anticipate it when I talk about my trajectory. There are actually so many holes and so many things that could be more subtle or just better if I just managed the fear with a stronger hand - it's always a temptation to respond to compliments on this with just a bullet list of stuff like objects in my home that I could have spent less on, internships and jobs I didn't take in college (I took none of either, surprise?), prices of common accidents and illnesses, people my age who own businesses or just make more in my same job title, oh shit this has become a list and I must stop. It takes some strength as I write this to restrain myself from doubling the length of it, such as with the number of years ago since the last time I had roommates STOP STOP THE LIST. I also see what do now as damage control for a youth where I could have got a much earlier start (as my parents encouraged, yes), but spent that time up in my head or on emotions instead. Also, I hear the faint yet increasing whistle of a reference to that one burnout article. It is coming closer, flying steadily in the direction of this paragraph. I will retreat briefly to my Chamber, to emotionally ready myself.

What I secretly wish for is for all those things to go away forever. At least to stop constantly screaming over, it feels like, my own voice.

At one point this plus my thoughts on Sx led me to eliminate both Sp-second and Sx-second variants from the realm of possibility, since the second instinct is known as a realm of confidence and lesser issues than the others, and So would take that space for me considering how turbulent both of the others are in comparison. But, I have backed off from that and am now more flexible thinking about it.

You do seem very balanced in your wings. Not sure which one you are. You vibe w5 but also describe some very w3 processes.

How I've conceptualized it at this point is that Sx's competitive drive in the 4 can mimic 3, and that leaves room for the 5's core fear to be acknowledged down below on my wing. I don't dread worthlessness quite as deeply as I do being inherently less capable/weaker than others, which makes me think that I need to work harder and prepare more to make it.

Ironically despite that fear I don't withhold my vulnerabilities in my outward manner except when not doing so would be an explicit immediate danger, rather being more inclined to wear them right up front where I can either (voice of shame here) get what I deserve for having them or discover new information through experience that might refine or change my definition of "weakness". I don't want to withhold, guard myself, or measure my affect out - I want my life to be secure enough that all the pressure to withhold won't have an impact anymore because I will have shown its sources that it isn't necessary to do to survive.

That said, if I weren't Sx first, it would be far more likely that I am 3-wing. Sx's mimicry of 3 addresses a large elephant in the room.

 

[EJCC]

I'm not sure if it points to or away self-pres, but these practical needs utterly terrify me, and that is what I fight for them out of. Hell, just having a body is terrifying to me alone when I really think about it. And terror is not good for calculation. What I see myself do is more like sledgehammer-like obsessive strikes at no more than a couple risks at a time. These leave craters, such as burnout or the depletion of a different resource to fulfill the one I laser-focused on - things that more calculation could have prevented. I'm actually really surprised I don't receive more criticism on my planning skills, and often anticipate it when I talk about my trajectory. There are actually so many holes and so many things that could be more subtle or just better if I just managed the fear with a stronger hand - it's always a temptation to respond to compliments on this with just a bullet list of stuff like objects in my home that I could have spent less on, internships and jobs I didn't take in college (I took none of either, surprise?), prices of common accidents and illnesses, people my age who own businesses or just make more in my same job title, oh shit this has become a list and I must stop.

This reinforces my thinking that you’re probably sp-first. Bearing in mind that the core fear of sp is lack of security - and you seem very preoccupied with that, in a physical and tangible sense.

This post actually sounds very sp 1 - constant inner monologue over what practical things need to be done, additional constant inner monologue criticising all of your efforts, refusal to believe anyone who says you have your shit together, and the occasional moment of “I need a break from all the shit my brain puts itself through, why can’t I just shut my brain off and relax into my second instinct” - which it sounds like for you is sx. Remember that the thing that stresses you out most is your first or last instinct - second is chill.

Also, horror at having a body to take care of = 5-wing af.

 

[Galena]

Also, horror at having a body to take care of = 5-wing af.

There’s more to go over, but for now, ding. Yep, this is what the wing is about!

 

[Galena]

This reinforces my thinking that you’re probably sp-first. Bearing in mind that the core fear of sp is lack of security - and you seem very preoccupied with that, in a physical and tangible sense.

This post actually sounds very sp 1 - constant inner monologue over what practical things need to be done, additional constant inner monologue criticising all of your efforts, refusal to believe anyone who says you have your shit together, and the occasional moment of “I need a break from all the shit my brain puts itself through, why can’t I just shut my brain off and relax into my second instinct” - which it sounds like for you is sx. Remember that the thing that stresses you out most is your first or last instinct - second is chill.

Also, horror at having a body to take care of = 5-wing af.

While I want to go into this more and can’t right now, yesterday I just came up with what I think would be the one way for me to be so-lastvthat would feel like it explains enough, and that would be if I were a 3 wing.