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Thread: P or J?

  1. #1
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    Default P or J?

    I am unclear on this letter for myself... the functions can be up for debate too but I'd like to get clearer on this one for now for various reasons but mostly to understand some of my tendencies better.


    According to the personalitypathways test that the test section of this forum links to I'm split too. I'm quoting the relevant part of their test here. I bolded the statements I relate to, but I'm 50/50. I also added comments to the statements to explain more. Please if anyone's reading, let me know your thoughts or you can also ask me additional questions. Thanks so much.


    Judging Characteristics

    Plan many of the details in advance before moving into action. - I don't usually have the need or the patience for this. The need I don't have because I can orient alright on the spot for many things. I see a big picture for what needs to be done and I essentially improvise based on that. I organise things on the move according to these main things that need to be done. As for the patience part, I usually am like, I do not necessarily feel the need of making a decision yet or even feel a block mentally if I try to think, I just can't think about the details for it, but then at one point I do feel I have to make the decision and then I move into action and then I do the sortof improvising.

    Focus on task-related action; complete meaningful segments before moving on. - I bolded this one because I definitely prefer to finish tasks. I can stop in the middle for something else but if I really revved up for a task and have been on track for a while then I don't want to. If I stop in the middle I do have a compulsion to return to it. Cognitively I am okay with picking it up again from there.

    Work best and avoid stress when able to keep ahead of deadlines. - I only relate to the avoiding stress part, i.e. it's less stress if I'm ahead of the deadline. But I also like some rush to myself. And sure I can ensure better quality if I start early but I don't always want to spend extra time on that... depends if it's worth it.

    Naturally use targets, dates and standard routines to manage life. - Yeah I have some routines and a calendar made by myself. I can't get much done if I don't have routines and deadlines. I don't operate on impulse enough to do the "have to do" things. But then maybe nobody does. And then for other more fun things I'd not be able to properly relax for them if I'm not done with the "have to do" stuff. Essentially I do need a part of my day to be structured or I feel aimless. And then relaxing for more fun things will be even less sufficient. Weirdly enough, I can do it if it's like I'm set to spend time with someone else socially. Then again it's scheduled stuff at that point. So maybe that's why. The even weirder thing is, before sorting the "have to do" things, I can also do stuff that I consider fun but I make work out of it in a sense. This is what I meant by not being able to truly relax. I can relax though for very passive things, I guess, e.g. reading easy fiction, maybe that's the exception beside just taking a long nap lol. Then, the other issue I got here is that I can definitely change my daily plan, too easily, too. And if I was to just live in routine all day from morning to evening, I'd have an issue with that too. But then again maybe everyone would. Overall, I also decided I need some room to be able to respond to things coming up. I am very used to being able to do so. So, dunno how strict I really am in this area.



    Perceiving Characteristics

    Comfortable moving into action without a plan; plan on-the-go. - Yes see above.

    Like to multitask, have variety, mix work and play. - No! I.e. no to multitasking. With work I frankly do not want variety much, that requires too much extra effort. I dislike mixing play with it, feels too unstructured.

    Naturally tolerant of time pressure; work best close to the deadlines. - Yes see above.

    Instinctively avoid commitments which interfere with flexibility, freedom and variety - No! I can't stand it if someone has zero sense of obligation and commitment. The closer I am with someone, the worse my ability is to tolerate it. Of course, "zero sense" is an exaggeration at that point. I'm capable of compromising though if I get used to the other person just needing space to themselves before e.g. they make a decision to commit to something important. Also of course my ability to tolerate a lack of a sense of obligation and commitment is low in work environments, for other projects and when it comes to managing agreements with people e.g. in business.



    PS: Ah, and let me add, the site's Jungian test results: Ti (5) = Si (5) > Te (4) = Se (4) > Fi (-1) > Ni (-2) > Fe (-6) > Ne (-9).

    So you can see more on why I am so divided heh.

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    *Bump*

    I've been told that Ps try too hard to be organised at first as overcompensation then give up later. I'm not sure if I have a case of that because for me it's more like I feel I have such high expectations for the organising that I can't always maintain it, but then I do go back to it after the lapse. I'm pretty good at staying disciplined in the meantime but it can also feel like a struggle a bit. I'm also not sure how much this is to do with psychological health level, which could be better for me right now. Thoughts? I'd still be really interested in any input, thank you, for anyone reading!

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    OK if people prefer this more here, I've filled out the @RooibosKrayfish questionnaire.



    1) Context:

    a) What is your age range and general location (Country so that cultural values can be taken into account)? Do you have any impairments that may affect the way that you answer this questionnaire? Any religious or political beliefs (or anything else along those lines) that also might have an effect?


    Age: 27
    Location: Europe
    No impairments/no relevant beliefs, other than the atypical/reactive form of depression


    b) Which types are you currently considering? Why are you considering them and why haven’t you decided on one?

    The Sensing Thinking types. I'm mostly undecided on the J/P dichotomy (and functions as well I don't really know about). For the reason see the first two posts in this thread.


    2) What do you deem as your purpose in life?

    I would like to be more concrete on this but atm it's just... Do something good for people (I have in the past, I would like to go on). And a good relationship with a SO.


    3) Of the seven deadly sins, which one(s) do you relate to the most and the least and why?

    Most: wrath, but I do control my anger more than what it says in descriptions. At least I would like to believe so. See 6) for more.
    Least: envy, it just has no point to it. If you like something someone else has achieved or owns, you can decide if you really want it, and if so, go get it yourself, and if you don't really want it, don't care.
    Also sloth, if it's about not putting in the effort, not caring about things of importance, that's a very bad thing imo.


    4) Analyzing your relationships with others, briefly describe:

    a) The type of people you are drawn to

    Mysteriously intelligent, elegant, and/or emotional.


    b) The type of people who are drawn to you

    I don't know if there is anything in common in them.


    c) The type of people you are repulsed by

    People with some overly weird behaviours. People who look as if they are already repulsed by things around them, their expression then is repulsive to me too lol.


    5) What are the traits in others that you admire but you cannot emulate yourself? Elaborate.

    The mysterious intelligence thingy, it's rare I can emulate it though it has happened before.

    And maybe a certain elegance/style... it's like a sense for image and is very feelings based somehow.


    6) Describe your relationship with the following:

    a) Anger

    By far the emotion I'm most comfortable with. If I can get angry at a problematic situation or person I do feel in control and good. I know what action to take then and I also can find relief from issues bothering me, or just from plain frustration. I don't take out simple frustration on other people though, just at objects lol.


    b) Shame

    I avoid this one by behaving in the necessary ways for society, and if I get in a situation where someone tries to push it on me anyway, I resist/confront instead.


    c) Fear

    I find fear in many cases pointless, it would be annoying if it got in the way. So it doesn't often come up, I'm able to feel fear though more directly than shame.


    d) Love/passion

    I just have a hard time feeling this one too because emotional safety and enough stimulation emotionally would be needed first.


    e) Conflict

    It's okay if needed, but the one thing I can't stand is if people turn things personal during a conflict i.e. people no longer "play by the rules" for fairness and for keeping a constructive enough direction.

    At that point, if it's a random person, it's just annoying but I know how to deal with it, but if I actually personally really care about the person then it's downright terrible at that point.


    7) What are some of the themes that have played a prominent role in your life (ie. A struggle you’ve been unable to conquer, ect)?

    Positively: I'm achievement focused and this helps give me purposes a lot for things, so I would say it's a consistent and substantial theme for me in my life.

    Negatively: I have a hard time connecting with people and having people truly have empathy for me and things like that. I could be wrong as to why, but I seem to just not be able to express my issues well enough for that.


    8) What do you plan on studying/working as in the future? How did you go about deciding this? If this is not your ideal area of pursuit, what would be?

    I have had jobs/businesses before but I am not decided on my final direction for career. I would like something that I can stick to forever and that does engage the intellect a bit at least, something that is a good challenge for achievement and a position that's socially well recognised, and I would like it to be something I have already spent time with because I have no desire to pick a completely new subject, but I am not sure beyond that. Financially I am in a good enough position by now to not have very high salary as the major requirement.


    9) When meeting a new person, what do you tend to focus on?

    Their looks, their style. What they are saying/doing, what I'm to respond with. Do I find them interesting to engage further if it's a social situation. Does the interaction have any purpose or are we wasting time here.


    10) How do you feel about humanity as a whole? What do you feel are some of the biggest problems the human race faces and why?

    We need to keep improving society.


    11) What are some of your hobbies and interests?

    Sports, racing.
    Tech gadgets.
    Languages.
    The mind (not the "touchy-feely" side of psychology).
    Understanding my inner processes, feelings, and relationships.

    But I think I make work with effort out of all the above too. lol... so what's a hobby?


    13) How do you usually “hang out” with your friend(s)? When answering, think about what activities you tend to choose, whether you hang out with one person at once or many, whether or not you initiate the interaction.

    I think with most people I prefer it if we do something rather than just talk, but I used to know a person with whom it was fine even just sitting and talking because she was just pretty engaging. So I never felt it was uncomfortable that way. I only like to hang out with 1-2 people at once, if it's many people, then I just try to occupy myself at all times with some goal to feel okay, or otherwise it would be uncomfortable. Actually on second thought, I think I actually also feel good with many people if they are engaging and nice. I think it's pretty typical that I hang out with the person/people and they poke me, I respond, then I just keep hanging out and observe things on my own until they engage me again. But I can rev up and initiate too after a while if I feel really good, that is, if I was made engaged enough by the people. See that person above, who was pretty engaging, she was the best at this. And I did make it a major goal of mine for recent years to initiate and improve on relationships. So I did definitely do quite some initiatives.


    14) What is more important, actions or words? Why?

    Actions need to comply with words.


    15) Oh dear, you’ve been cursed by a witch! It’s ok though, you get a choice on which curse you will receive. Will you choose….
    a) To never be able to experience the sensation of taste
    b) To be immortal
    c) To lose your memories
    d) To be poor for the rest of your life
    e) Or to never experience passion
    Elaborate on why!


    B, but I can't really imagine it well how it would be bad.


    16) What do you hope to avoid being? If it helps, describe a person who embodies what you avoid/you as a villain, ect.

    I hope to avoid being hateful.

    I hope to avoid being lazy, as well (see above at 3)).


    17) How do you relate to obsession? Do you tend to "merge" with others or your interests? How do you feel about the idea of doing this?

    I do merge with my interests. Some people can call some of my stuff an obsession.


    18) Organized or messy? Plans and blueprints or impulse and surprises? What are you preferences and tendencies?

    See first two posts in this thread. But in general, I think others would see some of my stuff as too much organisation and at the same time there is a lot of mess too. Like I have no energy for it all. I don't know what's natural for me anymore in this area really. I recall I used to be fine, but that seems like a long time ago.
    I don't plan in much detail usually. I like the word blueprint more I think... Impulse also happens. Sometimes I allow it immediately, sometimes I don't. A positive surprise for my birthday would be okay lol. I guess even if I had to adjust some things for it I'd see it as positive. Though when my brother recently, so to speak, surprised me with taking some of my stuff (that was in a mess since I moved and had no energy to touch it yet) and reorganising it in a way he thought was better for me, I was pissed but I tried to not show it. He really just wanted to help and he was so enthusiastic about that but he has no idea how to do these things lol. :/


    19) How do you subjectively view comfort and how do you create comfort in your life and surroundings?

    I don't know if I have any opinion on this. Seems like a basic thing in life. Is there a way to view it beyond that lol.
    How I create it, I find a comfortable or at least comfortable enough/maintainable position when sitting, when in bed, when making movements, etc.; I have and pick enough good clothing to wear for the circumstances; pick food that I do feel like eating for the meal; clean up and organise things well in the room, house, working area, and in other situations so I can find things easily, so they look neat overall, etc.; space out to-do's to be comfortable on a rest day or when very overloaded (i.e. put off the less urgent things); find relaxing and enjoyable enough stuff for my rest time; basics like that...

  4. #4
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    @Legion (thanks!!) sent me these questions about Si/Se vs Ti/Te:


    "One question that I can think of that I think relates to Se versus Si...

    I believe that Sensing relates to the co-ordination of one's physical movements... so, do you:

    a) move from without - looking at what is around you and moving your body towards/away from it as the stimulus suggests,

    or

    b) move from within - knowing how to co-ordinate your actions to fulfill the task/physical maneuver that you are engaged in"


    OK here in a sense I'm definitely the first statement. But let's clarify because it's a bit off at the same time. I recall how someone I know was telling me about how he learned to do rowing... he'd focus on it internally like he'd focus on how his muscles were to be tensed, while I'd focus on things externally, in sports too, so it would apply to rowing too, i.e. I'd focus on the action itself or the thing itself to be moved. Where the statement is "off" though is, I'm not sure I'd just call it acting upon a stimulus...? I'm more purposeful than that. I like taking action for a stimulus but only if I can make it for an aim. And I definitely coordinate action methodically if that is what was meant. I mean, I will have a method to organise the task or more complex physical maneuvers and follow that. When it's a physical maneuver that's not too complex, I simply just do it. All in all I coordinate many actions but I just do not focus on it internally physically like the guy I was talking with would. So all in all I do coordinate internally but it's not by focusing on the muscles etc like he would. If that doesn't count, I could pick the latter option because the former one is "off" with being purely stimulus-driven without any reservations.

    Let me know what you meant by the "moving from within" bit for the coordinating though.


    "And a question for Ti versus Te, do you:

    a) make judgements about how aspects of the world are structured by looking directly at the processes that are involved, without different judgements necessarily being in any way connected to each other

    or

    b) understand what you are dealing with by fitting it into a framework you have fine-tuned before hand, perhaps overlooking how the process is taking place in reality"


    I make judgments about how aspects of the world are structured for sure... I do not think I look directly at the processes though... It's like I pay attention to structure itself, not the process but then when I have the structure, I have the process too. It's like I got to have the structure stable before I can deal with any process directly. I'm not sure if building the structure is by making judgments, maybe, I just don't know. But I can make judgments after I built it I think. I like them systematic and consistent so they are connected in that way. Then, about the second statement, I do of course want to understand what I'm dealing with but for sure I don't want to overlook how something is actually taking place in reality. What I could (and frequently will) be overlooking is more data once I got the structure in place, though. It is very comfortable for me to stay inside of what I've built. Still, I try to override this tendency of mine and get more data when I see a need for it. Also... I cannot fine-tune any understanding of mine without first getting experience, I can't pull it out of my ass lol. So no I can't fit stuff inside such a pre-made framework. Afterwards yeah when I overlook new data. Maybe the latter option fits better though not very well, then.

    But could you please comment on what I've written so we can go from there if I misunderstood something when choosing?

  5. #5
    ∂ιѕﻭяα¢є∂ ¢σѕмσηαυт Luminous's Avatar
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    I'm leaning toward Te and Si, so perhaps ISTJ? You seem very focused on action, on doing things, on accomplishing, which seems more Te. And you like things a certain way, which seems more Si.

    Take with a huge grain of salt. These are the types I feel least comfortable guessing about.
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  6. #6
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    @kittenke

    I'm not too sure what your answers would be pointing to, so I'll just add some more information regarding the questions:

    Se is very much about directly observing what is around you. It just sees what's there, and as I mentioned may feel pulled to make some action based on that, for example seeing a fabric and wanting to feel it. With Ne+Si, when the object is observed, rather than eliciting a physical response, a mental response is elicited from Ne. So instead of wanting to feel the fabric, Ne will lead to some kind of thought based on the fabric, for example wandering what could be done with the fabric, or thinking of the idea of fabric. Si is like a concrete goal (I'm not sure if goal is the best term to use) that requires some kind of concrete process to achieve. For example, Si might be related to wanting to type something on a keyboard, and the thing I meant about "moving from within" would be that you are very conscious when in Si of what movements to make with your fingers in order to type something out. Obviously an Se user can still type, but they will be less aware of what they are actually doing - it's more that they have an idea in mind of what they want to say and the fingers seem to just move along automatically.

    Regarding the second question, when I mentioned that Ti is somewhat unaware of the processes that are actually taking place, I don't meant to say that Ti doesn't take in new data - Ti certainly does tend to decide based on objective data, but the difference is that the data it takes in doesn't yet have structure to it. It might implicitly have a structure, but the Ti is taking it in as if it didn't have structure, and then giving it structure by thinking about it in their head and parsing it for logic.

    Perhaps a better way to view Ti versus Te is that Ti is reactive, whereas Te is proactive (it's the same with Se versus Si, too - Se and Ti, or Ne, Fi, go together as a reactive process that looks at objective data and then gives it structure, and Te, Fe, Si, Ni go together as some pair which takes an inner objective and then gives it structure externally through goal-directed action). So whereas Ti will analyse the logic of something as a reaction, Te will take a goal the person has it mind and act to move it a reality by organising the external environment.

    Also, I don't believe in pure type - I believe that we have aspects of not just all 8 functions, but all 16 types, and that generally, the higher you are in one type, the higher you will be in the type which shares the same first 3 letters. So an ISTJ is actually quite ISTP-like, and an ISTP likewise is quite ISTJ-like. So, if you are stuck between those two types, the truth is that you probably alternate between the 2 types, and it is difficult to say which would be the predominant one, apart from thinking in general as to whether you are more reactive or proactive.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luminous View Post
    I'm leaning toward Te and Si, so perhaps ISTJ? You seem very focused on action, on doing things, on accomplishing, which seems more Te. And you like things a certain way, which seems more Si.

    Take with a huge grain of salt. These are the types I feel least comfortable guessing about.
    Thanks for the input. What you summarised does fit me. I understand you are not sure on the analysis but I'm curious anyway. Would you say my ability to not have to plan too detailed a lot of the time, and being decently tolerant of time pressure, and even getting mobilised by such pressure in many cases can fit some form of Te? Like expediency in a way?

    To say more on that... I do look like I care very much to not be late with a deadline and stuff like that, so I do get tense but I don't feel overly stressed. I'm just definitely not very loose or relaxed though. But I do enjoy the rush and challenge.


    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    @kittenke

    I'm not too sure what your answers would be pointing to, so I'll just add some more information regarding the questions:
    Really appreciated again!


    Se is very much about directly observing what is around you. It just sees what's there, and as I mentioned may feel pulled to make some action based on that, for example seeing a fabric and wanting to feel it. With Ne+Si, when the object is observed, rather than eliciting a physical response, a mental response is elicited from Ne. So instead of wanting to feel the fabric, Ne will lead to some kind of thought based on the fabric, for example wandering what could be done with the fabric, or thinking of the idea of fabric. Si is like a concrete goal (I'm not sure if goal is the best term to use) that requires some kind of concrete process to achieve. For example, Si might be related to wanting to type something on a keyboard, and the thing I meant about "moving from within" would be that you are very conscious when in Si of what movements to make with your fingers in order to type something out. Obviously an Se user can still type, but they will be less aware of what they are actually doing - it's more that they have an idea in mind of what they want to say and the fingers seem to just move along automatically.
    Hmm so you don't mean paying close detailed attention internally to my muscles and stuff like that, just a methodical-structured process for the movements themselves? I think what I'm able to pay close detailed attention to is such a methodical process to do such actions when it's complex enough requiring close control. And then yes that organises the movements themselves for ensuring control. If not complex then I just simply do it. Or if complex but I've practiced it a lot so it's become automatic. I am very much about concrete goals and concrete processes otherwise. Though I'm not even sure if I focus on that all that consciously, maybe more conscious when I'm working out a new structure for these things.

    For the keyboard example, I usually just type automatically but I can sometimes get analytical for a second accidentally and then I notice what I am doing, the structure in it, make sense? Like you can break it into elements and steps and those make up the process but btw I do not see the process without seeing these. I'll say more below on this methodical structure stuff.

    Oh and I do directly just observe what's around me until it gets complex enough that I want to do extra structure. I can just do actions where it feels like it's on impulse like that, but it's goal-directed at the same time, i.e. I would not actually do it without an eventual purpose if that made sense...


    Regarding the second question, when I mentioned that Ti is somewhat unaware of the processes that are actually taking place, I don't meant to say that Ti doesn't take in new data - Ti certainly does tend to decide based on objective data, but the difference is that the data it takes in doesn't yet have structure to it. It might implicitly have a structure, but the Ti is taking it in as if it didn't have structure, and then giving it structure by thinking about it in their head and parsing it for logic.
    OK, the thing is I don't know how I find the structure to the data or the process. I just know I do need it. But I don't really think deeply about it most of the time. It's like I just observe and I just look and see it. The structure and then I can deal with the process too. But when I have it then yeah I will stop taking in new data too easily.

    And when I'm taking in a lot of new data about a completely new thing/topic, I take a relatively long time before I can organise it. I just absorb the data slowly until then. Once organised, further data is what either falls into the organised system or doesn't and if it doesn't then I have a hard time seeing it.


    Perhaps a better way to view Ti versus Te is that Ti is reactive, whereas Te is proactive (it's the same with Se versus Si, too - Se and Ti, or Ne, Fi, go together as a reactive process that looks at objective data and then gives it structure, and Te, Fe, Si, Ni go together as some pair which takes an inner objective and then gives it structure externally through goal-directed action). So whereas Ti will analyse the logic of something as a reaction, Te will take a goal the person has it mind and act to move it a reality by organising the external environment.
    Hmm. "Structure" is definitely a pretty generic word. All in all like I said I try to find structure to be able to see processes and just act methodically, and it gives control that way for predictability. Instead of running into frustration with things not wanting to work, haha. I definitely like making goals a reality... I also like making judgments after looking at objective data. So I guess you could say I put the structures on everything that's complex enough.


    Also, I don't believe in pure type - I believe that we have aspects of not just all 8 functions, but all 16 types, and that generally, the higher you are in one type, the higher you will be in the type which shares the same first 3 letters. So an ISTJ is actually quite ISTP-like, and an ISTP likewise is quite ISTJ-like. So, if you are stuck between those two types, the truth is that you probably alternate between the 2 types, and it is difficult to say which would be the predominant one, apart from thinking in general as to whether you are more reactive or proactive.
    Yeah I feel totally ISTP when feeling adventurous and just going around. and I feel more xSTJ when I'm task oriented. (Not ESTP because they are more social with the adventurousness.)

    I will have to think about reactive vs proactive. I will post if I have any thoughts on this.

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    *bump*

    (I couldn't pick between reactive and proactive btw, sorry.)

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    I'd really like to have more input here on J/P, should I write more about myself for that?

  10. #10
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    I’m leaning ESTP because I think I’m seeing more Se than Si in how you describe your action-related processes. But if I were you I’d do a little more reading on it and keep us posted re: what resonates most with you.
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