P or J?

[kittenke]

Yeah that's the idea I was going for

Ah ok cool we are on the same page. Mind saying in what aspects I seem similar to your ESTP friend?

I see... I don't think you're an ESTP honestly. I can see bits and here that can perhaps be linked to Se (unless I'm blurring the lines between Se and Te), but you don't sound like a Pe dom to me. Especially with J and P being a close line of preference, it would make more sense for you to be a "Judging Dominant Perciever" or a "Sensing dominant judger", which is why I'd probably assert ISTP would make more sense?

Pe dom is more happy-go-lucky and relaxed about the task/goal than what I described, right? I agree that even if I was ESTP, I would have to be a really borderline case of the type. The thing though is I definitely don't fit any cookie-cutter type lol, I suppose it would be actually weird if I did.

BTW I originally said in my posts above that I excluded ESTP for myself because they are more social than me. Like they can "perform" for people in a way I'll just never do it. I just made myself open to consider it again because of the input from EJCC above.

Kind of? I was also sort of speaking to the "indulgence in comfort" aspect of Si that's sort of evasive of work and tasks because there is a preference for confort and relaxation, but still stick with ISTJ because they rely more heavily on building their logic pool based upon te external world rather than what they believe makes sense.

Ah OK, the thing is just that the ISTJ stereotype is pretty much of a dependable workaholic rather than being evasive of work and tasks... I've never read any ISTJ profile that talked about ISTJ being very indulgent in comfort actually. What they usually emphasise instead is how ISTJ finds putting in the effort very important.

I actually find effort important too, personally. If what I'm striving for has meaning for me, then I prove with my efforts that I actually do care enough for that meaning. If it's not as personal as that, but still some important achievement, then yeah again I see effort necessary and good. As part of that, I'll go and complete the particular task in the face of virtually any kind of discomfort just fine and I even like to defy circumstances like that. Other than that, I'm absolutely fine with getting deep in relaxing comfort here and there, but I can't imagine doing that all day except when I'm extra tired. It'd actually feel really unhealthy to slack like that all the time, like a feeling of how your body and mind are actually starting to disintegrate. And it would be aimless without a real purpose...

That and also sort of relates back to ISTJs that aren't great at time management or more inclined towards procrastination. You've downed improvising quite a bit now, that's another point against ESTP... If you use Se and Ti, you're Ti dom.

Ah ok, the thing is I do have some sortof seemingly improvising mode though but I already talked about that above. But yeah I'm not constantly in that mode so I suppose that excludes ESTP yeah? I can see how that would sound like Se aux though.

I'm fine with time management btw, I have a good sense for that, whenever I have a deadline, or for organising and optimising my day schedule when I want to get several things done. As for the procrastination, I actually don't like procrastination but when I'm too low energy, it just happens.

I was more so alluding to writing style... There's just certain "tone qualities" that run along type patterns and yours didn't seem ESTJ-esque. Typically they have a bit more of a direct and commanding style of speech where you just sound... Chill? Maybe a bit formal? (sorry this is a super stupid explanation bear with me)

Ah no worries, it didn't sound stupid.

I see. This is pretty relatable, I'm not sure where it would lie type wise exactly.

Yeah I don't know if it's a J/P thing or something else... I'd be interested in understanding more on how the heck this works though.

No, they have non-existent Fe issues. TPs have Fe, but poor control usage and control over that, so it causes them issues. TJs just don't have it at all.

Hmmm what's a non-existent Fe issue like?

Do TPs (esp IxTP) ever feel that using Fe is too fake? I.e. if they had to actively use Fe, would it ever feel too fake or jarring in any way?

I used to know an ESTP who wanted me to use Fe like them, and that definitely felt fake and overdone to me.

Like, since Ti is focused on defining things, they become somewhat categorical in nature and, to create structure, they tend to separate things that really might not need that level of categorization (ie. Work and play cannot mix). Thinking further though, I don't think that's necessarily exclusive to Ti.

OK, for me I dunno if it's about categorising, but for sure it's too much of a different mode or mood or whatever. It doesn't feel neat enough either which is why I said it feels too unstructured. Like... I decided I'll be doing this task now, so let me go and do it, and switching around like that would violate that focus and determination and the "plan" overall. So I just don't like to switch like that. Mainly I don't like to switch to play from work. If I'm done with work I still have to kinda wind down first.

Hmm I see. You're really hard to type tbh. I don't think ISTP is too far off but I might run through this a second time to see if I can get any more out of this...

Oh OK, and really thanks for all this!

 

[RadicalDoubt]

Ah ok cool we are on the same page. Mind saying in what aspects I seem similar to your ESTP friend?

Both of you place a high level of importance on achievement and goal obtainment in an area that is intellectually challenging and is recognized for that, are relatively adaptable in the sense that a detailed plan is not required to move forward, have talent with numbers and mathematics... He'd probably also place wrath at the top of his list with the deadly sin thing in the sense that anger is a natural emotion that is easier for him to express than others. Both of you also seem to be action/completion oriented.

Pe dom is more happy-go-lucky and relaxed about the task/goal than what I described, right? I agree that even if I was ESTP, I would have to be a really borderline case of the type. The thing though is I definitely don't fit any cookie-cutter type lol, I suppose it would be actually weird if I did.

BTW I originally said in my posts above that I excluded ESTP for myself because they are more social than me. Like they can "perform" for people in a way I'll just never do it. I just made myself open to consider it again because of the input from EJCC above.

Pretty much, although there can be a high degree of variance based on the level of preference for, say dichtomes and such. I think looking outside of the function theory you're probably a borderline case of whatever type you end up being. I wouldn't worry too much about the "performer" or super sociable aspect of the ESTP stereotype. It's a common archetype used to describe the type itself, but for more introverted/ambiverted or even even keeled versions of the type those sort of go away.

Ah OK, the thing is just that the ISTJ stereotype is pretty much of a dependable workaholic rather than being evasive of work and tasks... I've never read any ISTJ profile that talked about ISTJ being very indulgent in comfort actually. What they usually emphasize instead is how ISTJ finds putting in the effort very important.

Stereotypically I'd agree with that, that's the textbook interpretation anyhow. In practice I've found that that's often quite exaggerated. I find this aspect of Si is often not addressed. I actually used to get really confused with this back when I started function theory and mbti in general because people who were indulgent in this respect would often type as Si doms. There's a lot of factors that play into it obviously, but Si as a function tends to yield a person very attentive to both their internal states and external environments in respect to how they effect them specifically (mostly physical). As a result of this sensitivity, Si can be very particular and this can sometimes manifest as someone who seeks peak physical comfort in a way that can seem indulgent or even hedonistic. I've found this is a bit more common with those ISxJs bordering the P/J axis, but then perhaps I'm trusting my own internal judgement a bit too much here.

I actually find effort important too, personally. If what I'm striving for has meaning for me, then I prove with my efforts that I actually do care enough for that meaning. If it's not as personal as that, but still some important achievement, then yeah again I see effort necessary and good. As part of that, I'll go and complete the particular task in the face of virtually any kind of discomfort just fine and I even like to defy circumstances like that. Other than that, I'm absolutely fine with getting deep in relaxing comfort here and there, but I can't imagine doing that all day except when I'm extra tired. It'd actually feel really unhealthy to slack like that all the time, like a feeling of how your body and mind are actually starting to disintegrate. And it would be aimless without a real purpose...

Nonetheless then I think I might have been wrong with the ISTP judgement. The issue is what I'm catching with you is what I deem to be Te and/or Se and not enough Ti or Si to make a comfortable conclusion on your type. Your stress on effort and task orientation may be more Te than Se, perhaps I mistook it initially? I'm thinking that ISTJ and ISTP are the two more likely options in your case...

Ah ok, the thing is I do have some sort of seemingly improvising mode though but I already talked about that above. But yeah I'm not constantly in that mode so I suppose that excludes ESTP yeah? I can see how that would sound like Se aux though.

I'm fine with time management btw, I have a good sense for that, whenever I have a deadline, or for organising and optimising my day schedule when I want to get several things done. As for the procrastination, I actually don't like procrastination but when I'm too low energy, it just happens.

Ah ok, would you consider yourself more naturally in a state of mobilization then? In the sense that it's fairly easy to motivate yourself to do things in the sense that you're pretty much ready to go? That's typically more of a J thing I guess...

Hmmm what's a non-existent Fe issue like?

Do TPs (esp IxTP) ever feel that using Fe is too fake? I.e. if they had to actively use Fe, would it ever feel too fake or jarring in any way?

I used to know an ESTP who wanted me to use Fe like them, and that definitely felt fake and overdone to me.

Non-existant Fe usually relates to prioritization of the internal emotional states of both the user and others over creating harmony and consensus within the environment (in terms of emotions) if that makes sense? Usually, those without Fe in a negative light can sometimes seem self-absorbed, partisan, inattentive to the emotional environment, and heavily focused on individuals/individualism. With types also low in Fi, typically comes along with a lack of outwards expressiveness an attention to others. It can sometimes come with an inattentiveness to social cues and a lack of warmth as well, but typically I find that Si's general attentiveness makes up for both of those.

And yeah, especially with Fe in the inferior state. Even ExTPs will whine about fakeness but, especially in the extremes of extroversion you get that "fake" feel to some tert Fe users (which is probably what you caught in that ESTP you're referring to). Generally, the TPs (and as you alluded to, specifically the IxTPs) will see things that are excessively this kind of Fe as fake and feel that it's not worth the effort/silly to put effort into such behavior, which in more extreme cases can lead to accidental impoliteness, bluntness, and a somewhat self-absorbed exterior. Still, the attentiveness to the emotional environment is somewhat present, whether the user sucks at manipulating it or not.

OK, for me I dunno if it's about categorising, but for sure it's too much of a different mode or mood or whatever. It doesn't feel neat enough either which is why I said it feels too unstructured. Like... I decided I'll be doing this task now, so let me go and do it, and switching around like that would violate that focus and determination and the "plan" overall. So I just don't like to switch like that. Mainly I don't like to switch to play from work. If I'm done with work I still have to kinda wind down first.

I see. This goes back to the mobilization question I asked earlier.

 

[Non_xsense]

Really Fi and Fe is like Te ANd Te , Fe think Vs Fi not alot of emotionals bullshit let's solve the problem. Te vs Ti is Not Somemuch teorical bullshit let's solve the problem.
Actually balance is the best aprooch for any problem.

 

[kittenke]

Both of you place a high level of importance on achievement and goal obtainment in an area that is intellectually challenging and is recognized for that, are relatively adaptable in the sense that a detailed plan is not required to move forward, have talent with numbers and mathematics... He'd probably also place wrath at the top of his list with the deadly sin thing in the sense that anger is a natural emotion that is easier for him to express than others. Both of you also seem to be action/completion oriented.

Ah yeah that's quite some similarities. What area is he interested in re: intellectually challenging recognised area?

And when you say we both seem action and *completion* oriented, you mean he also likes finishing stuff and actually getting the thing or goal done?

Pretty much, although there can be a high degree of variance based on the level of preference for, say dichtomes and such. I think looking outside of the function theory you're probably a borderline case of whatever type you end up being. I wouldn't worry too much about the "performer" or super sociable aspect of the ESTP stereotype. It's a common archetype used to describe the type itself, but for more introverted/ambiverted or even even keeled versions of the type those sort of go away.

Right, but what makes a more introverted and a more even-keeled version of ESTP different from ISTP? I mean if there's a lot of Ti for that ESTP already and less Se...

Stereotypically I'd agree with that, that's the textbook interpretation anyhow. In practice I've found that that's often quite exaggerated. I find this aspect of Si is often not addressed. I actually used to get really confused with this back when I started function theory and mbti in general because people who were indulgent in this respect would often type as Si doms. There's a lot of factors that play into it obviously, but Si as a function tends to yield a person very attentive to both their internal states and external environments in respect to how they effect them specifically (mostly physical). As a result of this sensitivity, Si can be very particular and this can sometimes manifest as someone who seeks peak physical comfort in a way that can seem indulgent or even hedonistic. I've found this is a bit more common with those ISxJs bordering the P/J axis, but then perhaps I'm trusting my own internal judgement a bit too much here.

Oh yeah I'm sure every type profile is exaggerated a bit lol. Do ISxx's in general get at least somewhat indulgent with comfort or this is only really seen for the ISxJs and ISxPs don't really do this in your experience or only rarely?

That ISTP who does rowing, he is definitely more attentive to his internal states compared to me... Not just with rowing.

I do pay attention too but it's like only for short times at a time if that makes sense. I get to enjoy some stuff and take care of discomfort just fine, the amount of attention I have is enough for that.

And I'd be driven mad crazy if I was supposed to pay attention to rowing or any other sports or any other actions like the ISTP described it lol. Like having to pay attention all the time to how my muscles are tensing internally or whatever and actually orient by that. That really is just not for me. I do use some of that information but I don't have my attention on that *primarily*. I instead orient by the things I'm dealing with.

So that's how I can best sum up this.

Nonetheless then I think I might have been wrong with the ISTP judgement. The issue is what I'm catching with you is what I deem to be Te and/or Se and not enough Ti or Si to make a comfortable conclusion on your type. Your stress on effort and task orientation may be more Te than Se, perhaps I mistook it initially? I'm thinking that ISTJ and ISTP are the two more likely options in your case...

Hmm, Se would be not stressing at all? Heh, or what's the main difference here?

Ah ok, would you consider yourself more naturally in a state of mobilization then? In the sense that it's fairly easy to motivate yourself to do things in the sense that you're pretty much ready to go? That's typically more of a J thing I guess...

Uh I think it depends on the thing. If it's something I'm strongly committed for, or if it's something that's coming up and I have to respond to it, then I just do it, sure. In other cases... I can feel too low energy or whatever. (The reactive depression thing does play a part in that too though but not sure how much.) In any case though, when I do actually do something, I do like to just deciding now that yeah I'll go do this now. If that's what you meant?

With the state of mobilisation did you also mean this, like I said earlier, that I've got that readiness thing. That to an ISTP I talked to actually sounded draining lol.

Non-existant Fe usually relates to prioritization of the internal emotional states of both the user and others over creating harmony and consensus within the environment (in terms of emotions) if that makes sense? Usually, those without Fe in a negative light can sometimes seem self-absorbed, partisan, inattentive to the emotional environment, and heavily focused on individuals/individualism. With types also low in Fi, typically comes along with a lack of outwards expressiveness an attention to others. It can sometimes come with an inattentiveness to social cues and a lack of warmth as well, but typically I find that Si's general attentiveness makes up for both of those.

And yeah, especially with Fe in the inferior state. Even ExTPs will whine about fakeness but, especially in the extremes of extroversion you get that "fake" feel to some tert Fe users (which is probably what you caught in that ESTP you're referring to). Generally, the TPs (and as you alluded to, specifically the IxTPs) will see things that are excessively this kind of Fe as fake and feel that it's not worth the effort/silly to put effort into such behavior, which in more extreme cases can lead to accidental impoliteness, bluntness, and a somewhat self-absorbed exterior. Still, the attentiveness to the emotional environment is somewhat present, whether the user sucks at manipulating it or not.

Hmmm okay I'll have to ask a bit more. So without the internal emotional states being good (or at least not bad), how would emotional harmony be possible anyway within the environment? I.e. if you don't actually enjoy the interactions with the person/people? I guess that is where it gets to feel fake for me... like trying to say affirmative things for validation or show personal care and stuff, when I just don't even actually feel involved, if I don't truly care about the issue or the person. If I do, then it doesn't feel fake, but it can still be pretty awkward to say things like that... I'll go with an ISTP example again, but apparently they can just do things like e.g. ask someone if they are okay, just asking socially, just because, and for me this seems so personal and jarring to ask random people like that. It's hard for me to do that even with people I really care about.

Other than saying such IMO personal things, I do think I'm pretty attentive with high social conscientiousness when I'm interacting with others... What do you find different in Si attentiveness from Fe attentiveness? Being less personal, would that be a good example (at least for xSTJs of course, let's ignore xSFJs here as they have Fe).

 

[kittenke]

I'll do a little list of pros/cons actually for all the ST types. Maybe some of it is based on bad stereotypes though lol

ESTJ:
Fits: I like goals, I have some forcefulness, and quite the competitiveness.
Doesn't fit: I don't constantly play boss. Not that social.

ESTP:
Fits: I have some adaptability, some forcefulness, and quite the competitiveness.
Doesn't fit: I don't "perform" socially to people. I care about commitment more.

ISTJ:
Fits: I do have the calm patient mode to achieve longer term goals. I like commitment and effort with persevering.
Doesn't fit: I'm not calm all the time lol, I get more forceful than that easily. I can adapt to change, I'm not organised all the time.

ISTP:
Fits: I can go for adventure a bit, have some adaptability.
Doesn't fit: I do care more than that apathetic ISTP stuff (that stuff is completely alien to me!), and care about commitment more, I don't just live from day to day.


EDIT: That was just traits, I'll try to add more a bit later on way of thinking too.

 

[EJCC]

I'll do a little list of pros/cons actually for all the ST types. Maybe some of it is based on bad stereotypes though lol

ESTJ:
Fits: I like goals, I have some forcefulness, and quite the competitiveness.
Doesn't fit: I don't constantly play boss. Not that social.

ESTP:
Fits: I have some adaptability, some forcefulness, and quite the competitiveness.
Doesn't fit: I don't "perform" socially to people. I care about commitment more.

ISTJ:
Fits: I do have the calm patient mode to achieve longer term goals. I like commitment and effort with persevering.
Doesn't fit: I'm not calm all the time lol, I get more forceful than that easily. I can adapt to change, I'm not organised all the time.

ISTP:
Fits: I can go for adventure a bit, have some adaptability.
Doesn't fit: I do care more than that apathetic ISTP stuff (that stuff is completely alien to me!), and care about commitment more, I don't just live from day to day.


EDIT: That was just traits, I'll try to add more a bit later on way of thinking too.

This definitely makes you sound STP.

Also: I don't know many ISTPs, but none of them are apathetic.

 

[kittenke]

This definitely makes you sound STP.

Also: I don't know many ISTPs, but none of them are apathetic.

Thanks for the input again! Can you say which bit in my list is definitive for STP in your opinion?

 

[Norexan]

Be not social is not a sign that you are Introvert.
ter Fe can be really antisocial because you think you can be nice with people, you really want to be but because your personality you end up causing them pain. Can be somewhat narcissistic.
ter Fe with Se act like an manipulator in order to protect your image. (for example if many people think that you are not good person and you feel that kind of public thinking will cause a lot of damage to your personality your ter Fe will act like u rescue, use manipulation, convincing people to protect image )

For Sensation is simple.
Are you impulsive (SP) or you like to plan things ahead (SJ) ?

NO. BE J OR P IT IS NOT ABOUT A GOAL.
EACH TYPE HAS A GOAL IN LIFE.
DIFFERENCE IS HOW THEY CHOOSE TO FIND IT.

J EASY FIND A GOAL IN LIFE BUT THEY ARE VULNERABLE IF THEY LOOSE IT. (YOU UNDERSTAND THIS LOOP)
P HARD FIND A GOAL IN LIFE BUT THEY CAN EASY FIND NEXT IF THEY LOOSE IT (LOOK AT -> NOPE -> LOOK AT --> NOPE --> LOOK AT -> GOAL -> LOOSE -> LOOK AT THIS! )

IT IS SIMPLE.
J CANNOT ALLOW MISTAKE IN LIFE WHICH IS WHY THEY ARE GRATE FOR JOBS THAT IS VALUE RESPONSIBILITY
P FIND MISTAKES AS PART OF LIFE WHICH IS WHY THEY ARE GRATE FOR JOBS WHERE YOU CAN ERASE SHITS AND START NEW.

EXAMPLE:

BAD MANAGEMENT CAN CAUSE A LOT OF DAMAGE TO YOU,PEOPLE AROUND YOU AND THE ENTERPRISE AND SOMETIMES CANNOT BE ERASED. (ESTJ)
YOU MAKE MISTAKE IN MATH PROBLEM? BIG DEAL. ERASE. TRY NEW APPROACH. AHA! THAT'S WORK. NOTHING IS FLOODED (ISTP)

 

[EJCC]

Thanks for the input again! Can you say which bit in my list is definitive for STP in your opinion?

Your “doesn’t fit” sections for ESTJ and ISTJ sounded Se to me. Not sure why.

 

[kittenke]

Be not social is not a sign that you are Introvert.
ter Fe can be really antisocial because you think you can be nice with people, you really want to be but because your personality you end up causing them pain. Can be somewhat narcissistic.
ter Fe with Se act like an manipulator in order to protect your image. (for example if many people think that you are not good person and you feel that kind of public thinking will cause a lot of damage to your personality your ter Fe will act like u rescue, use manipulation, convincing people to protect image )

Ah hey there, I recognise you from another thread, thanks for the input.

You see, I'm sure I can inadvertently cause negativity to others when that's not my intention, but I don't know if it is in the way tertiary Fe types do it. I have been called slightly narcissistic, if that's the same thing as what you got in mind here... I dislike the idea of being truly grandiose though, I prefer to stick to factual reality more than that, i.e. I prefer to be grounded about my own self-esteem, by striving to have an actual basis to positive self-esteem.

Then uh, for sure I don't have the slightest idea about upholding let alone protecting a "manufactured" image of myself like that. I do care about social status but not in that way I think. I care in a more impersonal way than that. It feeds my competitiveness but it's not about an explicitly "manufactured" image. But mind saying more on the rescuing thing? What did you mean by "tert Fe will act like you rescue"?

Other than that, I have definitely been disliked by quite some people, but I just never really cared about that, I keep more of a distance than that to most people.

For Sensation is simple.
Are you impulsive (SP) or you like to plan things ahead (SJ) ?

Errr... yeah I'm in between lol. Though I can't / don't like to get 100% impulsive, I want to have at least a 0.5-second-long quick consideration before I act. I often don't need more than that, actually... 0.5-1 second. Sometimes it's more. Sometimes I get uncomfortably blocked from taking action for longer. Mostly if stuff is too unexpected, I think. Anyhow, yeah I don't plan in detail much either. Drafting up a few important points for the plan is what is most natural to me.

If I don't have that little consideration, even if short, I feel too impulsive, but that's really rare. It feels like having lost my head completely. It doesn't feel entirely natural. It does easily have undesired consequences ofcourse. Tho' sometimes no such problem

NO. BE J OR P IT IS NOT ABOUT A GOAL.
EACH TYPE HAS A GOAL IN LIFE.
DIFFERENCE IS HOW THEY CHOOSE TO FIND IT.

J EASY FIND A GOAL IN LIFE BUT THEY ARE VULNERABLE IF THEY LOOSE IT. (YOU UNDERSTAND THIS LOOP)
P HARD FIND A GOAL IN LIFE BUT THEY CAN EASY FIND NEXT IF THEY LOOSE IT (LOOK AT -> NOPE -> LOOK AT --> NOPE --> LOOK AT -> GOAL -> LOOSE -> LOOK AT THIS! )

Hehh hm, ok, I would say it's been hard for me to make the biggest goals really concrete. Final direction for career and who/what kind of person to have for my SO, to marry them. Maybe just due to lack of experience. I'm finding I'm getting better at it as I gain more concrete experience in life in those areas.

So this "look at -> nope -> look at -> nope", this is familiar to me.

But the thing is, I think I feel more comfortable being able to see clearer about these things. The thought of finally being able to lock on a final career direction, that sounds like a real relief to me. I was always able to ignore it okayish that I was not able to sort that out before, but it was a little uncomfortable nag in the background for sure... despite me having achieved successes in work / financially, this was always there.

Beside the above goals, honestly the actual goal I was the most ever committed to so far in my life, it was REALLY hard to lose that one. It was almost traumatic honestly. I was also never as emotionally involved before as I was for that one. I really usually do achieve my goals fine, in the way I set out to achieve them. But that one..... it didn't depend only on me but on someone else too, so that is the only comforting thought about it.

(And btw no, this was not simply about having a relationship, even if another person was involved in this.)

IT IS SIMPLE.
J CANNOT ALLOW MISTAKE IN LIFE WHICH IS WHY THEY ARE GRATE FOR JOBS THAT IS VALUE RESPONSIBILITY
P FIND MISTAKES AS PART OF LIFE WHICH IS WHY THEY ARE GRATE FOR JOBS WHERE YOU CAN ERASE SHITS AND START NEW.

I can allow smaller mistakes... sure. Everyone makes them. How about big mistakes, surely Ps don't handle those easily either?

Though lol, big mistakes can seem really small too until you do get to experience the really bad consequences and learn from them... life is funny like that.

The goal above... I made some mistake there in even picking it originally in the way I did... it's been very hard to "erase" that and start new.

I think responsibility is a good thing, when it's actually got a big important point to it, when it actually matters, so in a job too. I enjoy it then. Or even small responsibilities too when I am committed to something. When I am not committed, then I don't think I pay particular attention.

Do healthy Ps really still not care about responsibility tho'?

EXAMPLE:

BAD MANAGEMENT CAN CAUSE A LOT OF DAMAGE TO YOU,PEOPLE AROUND YOU AND THE ENTERPRISE AND SOMETIMES CANNOT BE ERASED. (ESTJ)
YOU MAKE MISTAKE IN MATH PROBLEM? BIG DEAL. ERASE. TRY NEW APPROACH. AHA! THAT'S WORK. NOTHING IS FLOODED (ISTP)

!! Bad management, I could rant about that for quite a while if you were to ask me.

I outright hate the trial and error approach. It's just frustrating as hell, it's a surefire way to get me very angry eventually, to the point of having a rage.

This is why I try to be methodical about tasks I do. Which is a fun thing because I can also start on things too impatient instead of being all that calm methodical and then the frustration and anger happens very predictably. Then as soon as I can find myself a good methodical approach, I really really calm down and I'm fine again. So I don't know what the heck that is?

The one thing it reminds me of is some ESTPs I've known who would tell me how they start at something with impatience too, then the thing doesn't work and they start at something else and it all ends up in a real impulsive and angry mess lol. Where I do differ from that is that I would find it too self-defeating to get in my own way with acting THAT much impulsively, and it'd just frustrate me even further, so instead I do make myself "logic it out" and find the right methodical way to deal with the thing. But I will also easily act out initially before I can calm down enough to be patient enough to find that logical way. And then I feel in control neatly, which I do like. Idk. Something like this.

Those ESTPs I'm thinking of are guys though and I'm female... men are in general more chaotic in a sense than women, so that may play into it. But I'm also in general way calmer than stereotypical ESTP, anyhow. Just not as calm as some introverts are, again, for sure.

Your “doesn’t fit” sections for ESTJ and ISTJ sounded Se to me. Not sure why.

Ah ok, and the cons part for ESTP/ISTP didn't sound Si or Te then?

 

[Norexan]

I think you are ISTP or ESTJ since there is buffer between organization and play things.

Do healthy Ps really still not care about responsibility tho'?

They have lighter approach to iife not that serious as J.

 

[Norexan]

Oh and yes ESTP strive to WIN at all cost. They can feel frustrating if their visions go wrong because their ability to see things ahead attack them. They are extreme positive people.

 

[kittenke]

I think you are ISTP or ESTJ since there is buffer between organization and play things.

Ah, like, organising with logic before action?

They have lighter approach to iife not that serious as J.

Hmm well I take my commitments incredibly seriously.


Mind saying more on the rescuing thing? What did you mean by "tert Fe will act like you rescue"? (Sorry, I asked this already but not sure if you saw it, so just making sure, since I'm really interested in this bit.)

Oh and yes ESTP strive to WIN at all cost. They can feel frustrating if their visions go wrong because their ability to see things ahead attack them. They are extreme positive people.

Heh that fits me a lot. Winning has always been important to me lol, also, did you mean inability to see things ahead (low Ni)? I can have that problem too.

 

[Norexan]

Ah, like, organising with logic before action?



Hmm well I take my commitments incredibly seriously.


Mind saying more on the rescuing thing? What did you mean by "tert Fe will act like you rescue"? (Sorry, I asked this already but not sure if you saw it, so just making sure, since I'm really interested in this bit.)




Heh that fits me a lot. Winning has always been important to me lol, also, did you mean inability to see things ahead (low Ni)? I can have that problem too.

I am saying that you are Thinker but I am not sure are you introvert or extrovert.

Extroverted ISTP is not ESTP but ESTJ.
Introverted ESTP is not ISTP but ISTJ.

First thought that we are not sure do you use Si or Se means that sensation is overused.


3rd functions act like "rescue team" when you are get in trouble because 1st becomes to be overused. Think about like 1st is a hammer and 3rd is like anvil.
For example when ESTJ loose his ground (security) about something he become to analyze every possible scenario (ter Ne) to get his ground (security) back.


inf Ni is not inability to see things ahead but conviction that you CAN see things ahead which is reason why they are so positive, brave and reckless in action.
But unlike ENxP it can be a bit narrow minded. For example, only because something once is happen to you because of A inf Ni generates that always is that case whenever you see A.

And I think that you are ESTJ type 3. This is also reason why we can see you as ESTP.

 

[kittenke]

I am saying that you are Thinker but I am not sure are you introvert or extrovert.

Extroverted ISTP is not ESTP but ESTJ.
Introverted ESTP is not ISTP but ISTJ.

First thought that we are not sure do you use Si or Se means that sensation is overused.


3rd functions act like "rescue team" when you are get in trouble because 1st becomes to be overused. Think about like 1st is a hammer and 3rd is like anvil.
For example when ESTJ loose his ground (security) about something he become to analyze every possible scenario (ter Ne) to get his ground (security) back.


inf Ni is not inability to see things ahead but conviction that you CAN see things ahead which is reason why they are so positive, brave and reckless in action.
But unlike ENxP it can be a bit narrow minded. For example, only because something once is happen to you because of A inf Ni generates that always is that case whenever you see A.

And I think that you are ESTJ type 3. This is also reason why we can see you as ESTP.

Hmm I see. Thanks for the opinion on my type.

Have you got a short description like this (that you gave for ESTP and ESTJ) as to how the 3rd function works for ISTJ and ISTP as a rescuer?

As for inferior Ni, hmm, yeah I don't relate to thinking that I can see things ahead. I'm more like I just don't think ahead much, that's what turns out to look reckless sometimes. But then there is some truly reckless stuff that I wouldn't do lol. When it's just really obvious how logically it would have bad consequences.

This was a bit familiar: "because something once is happen to you because of A inf Ni generates that always is that case whenever you see A"

But I do that only after the thing happened 2-3 times as a result of some action or decision of mine, and only if it had a really bad consequence that really did affect me. Then in future I avoid that kind of situation. I usually avoid it after 2 times of the same happening. I only try a 3rd time in those cases if I either really really don't see another option, so I feel really forced to try, because it's really important to me; or if I think I figured out the factors for why it happened that way so I can have more control the next time. Tbh I don't try to figure out the factors for it usually... I just realise the reason/factors if I get lucky sometimes, usually much later, lol.

 

[Norexan]

Have you got a short description like this (that you gave for ESTP and ESTJ) as to how the 3rd function works for ISTJ and ISTP as a rescuer?

When ISTJ loose their place in society they can be very kind to people and show will to understand needs of others.
And for ISTP when they are bind to the world they can use their Ni (check other perspectives) to restore their freedom.

 

[kittenke]

When ISTJ loose their place in society they can be very kind to people and show will to understand needs of others.
And for ISTP when they are bind to the world they can use their Ni (check other perspectives) to restore their freedom.

Sorry, can you clarify what's meant by losing place in society? Like a big failure? Or?

 

[Norexan]

Sorry, can you clarify what's meant by losing place in society? Like a big failure? Or?

Position. Status.

 

[kittenke]

Position. Status.

Well, ok, the ESTP, ISTJ and ISTP examples are pretty unrelatable. The ESTJ one "For example when ESTJ loose his ground (security) about something he become to analyze every possible scenario (ter Ne) to get his ground (security) back" sort of works but I don't think I analyse literally all possible scenarios. That would be too much brainstorming, I can't and won't brainstorm, as I quite dislike it. I'm more like I drop the conventional approach and find a really nonconventional one for the problem, to find my way around again. Then when I reoriented ok, I'll go back to the conventional approach. But I do this only if it's a really big problem where I do get disoriented enough. And it's difficult for me to do this nonconventional mode, it's actually enough stress to consider it as Inferior Ne rather than Tertiary Ne if it's Ne even. [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] can I ask if you relate to this at all?

Is ESTJ not supposed to get along well with INFPs? (As in, the complete opposite type.) I'm starting to suspect I got a real problem with them lol... they can be really attractive first (mutually) but then it turns into a disaster........ now of course it might not even be due to type, but I'm starting to see it as a repeating pattern lol.

 

[EJCC]

[MENTION=38431]kittenke[/MENTION] no, I resonate more with the example. If I lose my sense of security, the very first thing I do is brainstorm what to do next - with a cost benefit analysis. I don’t launch immediately into a plan B unless time is extremely short.

I don’t buy into type compatibility theory all that much. Compatibility ime depends much more on shared interests, values, humor, etc.