I Think I'm Gonna Puke

[PeaceBaby]

FYI, I will do an annoying thing where I ignore what you say in favor of how it is said and the mentality I see behind it. That is generally how I type people.

Yes, it's not about what is said, but rather, finding the thinking patterns that drive what is said.

 

[Dreamer]

Yes, it's not about what is said, but rather, finding the thinking patterns that drive what is said.

Is there a way to read between the lines without also injecting our own personal biases into the mix? I like to try and be as objective as possible when dealing with things such as this, but I admit, it can be extremely difficult at times to do so. Or, should we assume it's not possible to be objective and be OK with that?

Just throwing some thoughts out there.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Why is this? I agree with you, but I don't know why. Except for posts emphasizing that she needs to be seen for who she is, that seems distinctly more NF to me. So I initially thought ENFJ too.

Fwiw, CP, at this point I could just as easily see ISFJ. (I hope this whole topic hasn't become horribly grating to you. I don't think anyone would blame you if you asked people to cool it for a while. )

I don't see Si in her ego.
Her language is kinda gisty/not concrete. I don't have a great reason as of now because I'd need to back it up with some reference and I am too lazy (and not invested enough) to do so right now. Whatever I reference below may show why I think she is NFJ.

I get that [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] because even I see how I am more ENFJ here

On the forum or you also see it in your answer on childhood?

The answer re: childhood is a bit complicated because 1) I was who my parents wanted me to be (I came after a child who died) and 2) I was the victim of a very serious crime. Those factors aside, I was very into day-dreaming and fantasizing, had a natural happy nature, was not easily understood by other's in how I spoke but was well-liked, was creative and adventurous, hated routine or schedules and rebelled against them, was stubborn but often would cry alone or express myself to trees... I think I am my more true self since I have done work and not allowed the external circumstances I mentioned to affect me as much.

I cannot comment on the effects of tragedy, but I guess the rest of this strikes me as an NFJ child still.
Even well-behaved IxFP children tend to resist being who someone else wants/needs them to be unless it aligns with their own reasoning. More on that below....

I score very high on Fe. It's clear I use it to me also. But, I always score a bit more highly on Fi and it's what I connect with in day-to-day life. I could be wrong. Just explaining what I feel in tune with more.

I don't believe in "using" functions. I think type is ego. It is an identity, a whole mentality, etc. Test scores mean little for people who have been into typology for awhile, and they are more often inaccurate than not.
I think the official MBTI notes people often score up to two letters wrong. This is why I think noting ego type is best for people who are very unsure and have been around personality typology awhile.

As for why someone may keep testing as INFP even though others see a different mentality...

Interestingly, Lenore Thompson makes this comment (from Personality Type - An Owner's Manual):
"The insistent theme that runs through these FP [mythological stories] is the hopeful idea that if everyone developed Introverted Feeling, external boundaries wouldn't matter anymore. We'd realize that all people are unique, have their own gifts, and are valuable as fellow humans. And it may be noted, in this respect, that people whose subjective experience has led them to champion this kind of vision almost always get high INFP scores on type tests."

Notice she doesn't say these people actually are INFP....

What I notice with such people is while they identify with INFP and Fi at its best, they don't identify much with the negatives. I dont care how "healthy" or "mature" someone is or what they've been through, they are inevitably flawed. So when someone doesn't identify with any negatives of a type, it can suggest to me they are avoiding identifying their own ego in order to avoid identifying those blind spots.

I see strenghths of Fi and INFPs in you, but the weaknesses, the blind spots, etc, are something else.

My Mother is ENFJ and though I admire her and we are similar in some ways, we think and process things VERY differently. I don't really care a lot about external influences or opinions and those guide my Mom. It has been a source of conflict between us how little I am tethered to social expectations or the views of others. This probably sounds extremely selfish but although I have a hugely genuine interest in people, my largest interest is myself. My thoughts and my own company. The rest of the world is secondary to that.

I feel like it isn't selfish though because having that priority allows me to best serve others, when it is called for.

1. How do you know she is ENFJ?

2. Does your husband being INFJ rule out INFJ?

3. You must see it is poor reasoning to say you cannot be a type because you dont get along with or relate to an individual of that type....
I mean, I dont relate to you or your general style (although I find you likable); does that mean only one of us could be INFP?

My best friend is INFP too. When I first met her, because she is incredibly nice and very much an enneatype 9, I typed her as ISFJ. Over time, it became really apparent that she had FiNe mentality. In fact, we have strikingly similar thought processes, but our outer demeanor can be really different. She definitely embodies more of the humanistic side of Fi, and I kind of have an exaggerated individualistic Fi ego, although both attitudes exist in each of us (our outer character is just defined a bit more by one). In comparison to her, I may almost seem like an INTP; in comparison to me, she seems more like a classic, "soft" Feeling type. So our personalities are not the same, but the mentality behind them then is quite similar.

The point here is...with people we are really close to, we can see so many nuances that can make us feel different from them so that if we type ourselves in relation to them, then we may end up exaggerating those differences and feeling we must be a different type.
On the other hand, of course we can adopt similar traits to family and friends, which may make us seem very similar despite being different types. But I find that mentality still comes through the shared behaviors, habits, quirks, etc...

4. You don't feel tethered to the views of others....anymore. But you did as a child.

This to me suggests Pi development in a Je-dom. Je types are too influenced when young by the external criterias, and they have to learn to develop an inner guide that sets healthy boundaries between them and others. Once become aware of how much it is needed, they can get very protective of those boundaries and the sense of individuality that has come to be precious to them.

Ji types develop in an almost opposite manner. We are stubbornly resistant to outside influence as children, too much so, but as we get older and develop Pe, we chill out a bit. We get more open to others, our walls come down, we are less emotionally stingy, etc. Our individuality becomes less an issue and we begin to enjoy relating and connecting to others more. The big resistance is less a fear of undue influence than it is fear of judgement (projection of inferior Je), which is why IxxPs can be like lone wolfs secretly wishing to belong to some pack, whereas ExxJs may set firm boundaries but seem deceptively very open to people. IxxPs, when young, can see real criticism and blow it up and imagine the whole world is hostile to their philosophies (and yes, Jung describes this for the Ti type also). They can be too uncompromising, yet feel hopeless to ever find understanding in others. Getting over that means letting the drawbridge down, putting out the welcome mat - NOT setting firmer boundaries.

This happens with all E or I types respectively, but this is especially how it can play out for Je and Ji types. If neither of these concepts really resonates, then maybe that suggest being P-dominant.

Since I made the effort to pull the book out...
Lenore Thompson's comments on Ni might apply:
INJs tend to use their thinking or feeling....to resist "infection" by a custom, method, ideaology, theory or set of expectations that feels alien to them and capable of malignment attachment. They throw light on such creatures, revealing them as arbitrary constructs, depriving them of power to influence.

This is a different kind of resistance from Ji. Instead of judgement, there is a concern of "infiltration". I notice Pi types may feel like once you experience something, you cant take it back, like it "stains" you and is a part if you. This can make them very cautious about what they are exposed to, so that it cannot have too much influence.
An ExxJ may begin to show the same caution with age.

ENFJ's are great, I just don't feel any kinship with the descriptions.

Which ones are you referring to?

How about Lenore Thompson's book?

That's the thing. I think I could have explained it better. I don't care. I meant that because when people get to know me better, they usually find me a lot more 'internal' and 'removed' than they first thought. Often, people who expected me to fit into their life in a larger way are actually disappointed by finding out how much time away from people is my reality.

Actually, thinking about it now I think my forum self is close to my "social" self IRL, but I can only maintain it for so long. I love people, am interested in them...but the level of interaction I prefer to operate at only allows me to do so in limited amounts and then I feel depleted and need to centre with myself.

I was raised in a VERY high-level social environment and think I am still figuring out that I don't have to be "on" all the time. That people won't be disappointed if I am not my most entertaining self. Ugh. I thought I was further along then this. Smile

But this is exactly how INFJs are described...

From Lenore Thompson again, this time on INFJs:
Because INFJs use extroverted feeling to relate to the outer world, they may seem more outgoing than they really are. Their personal approach and ability to find common ground with others combines with their intuitive need for innovation and alternate views, and frequently they find themselves in positions of authority.
...
Thus, it should be recognized that INFJs are more like INTJs than they initially appear. Their primary relationship is to their inner world, and they are receptive to others only up to a point. Indeed, these types often find that their sympathy and perceptive listening have been mistaken for an overture of friendship, which they didn't intend.

The truth is that Introverted Intuition inclines them to keep a part of themselves in reserve - to locate their true identity outside the expectations and definitions of others.

I personally do see this in ENFJs too, particularly when older, but to a lesser degree.
Not everyone integrates their auxiliary and lower functions that much with age...

Honestly, I care the most about what I think. So, I am totally open to opinions but won't agree if it doesn't resonate with how I know myself to be. How I think and act.

Of course...

No problem! I am fascinated by how different people see me. I am in awe of the knowledge people here have (I am still an infant in that regard with typology). I like lateral approaches to things

I took this to mean it is ok if I respond as I have just done.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

I'm not at all speaking for OA, I just saw this and wanted to add something.

Re your behavior on the forum, and whether disconnect between behavior and type, all I can say is that if you see yourself as Fi, your number one value seems to be Fe and bringing people together for dialogue and harmonious discussion, valuing acknowledging everyones' input. Meaning, your behavior seems very Fe valuing. I am not saying this is out of the realm of Fi, it is just something an Fi person would need to value so much as to come across more Fe. (and ofc nothing wrong with that I have known an Fi person before who felt she had strong Fe as well, and felt she might value Fe as an Fi user, and thus had a strong inclination to reach out to others in more of an Fe sort of way, but you seem to take it to another level on the forum - and I mean this in the best possible way - you are somewhat unique in this respect on the forum, I think.

What do you think your motivations are for 'advocating' on the forum? What inspires you or leads you to do so?

First, I really appreciated your observation re: your friend. Humans are so complex and although I GREATLY value the generalizations that allow us to make compilations and study each other, I also value individual things we bring to the table.

I thought a lot about your question. I have delved into it a bit with [MENTION=6723]phobik[/MENTION] but still felt I needed to examine it more.

I noticed early in life that outward expression of strong Fi (tho I didn’t know at the time this is WHAT it was) was not practically valued or even greatly understood. The result? I decided to keep Fi to myself and use Fe qualities to navigate the ‘real world’ (I didn’t have the language for what I was doing and really I was just imitating my ENFJ Mom who has amazing interpersonal skills).

My circumstances required me to be much more outgoing then I felt and to smoothly handle various social interactions. So, I began to guard evidence of my inner world jealously. Sharing it with a very select few.


When I joined I thought: how can I protect myself on the forum but still be real and open? One way: talking about impersonal things like politics, psychology or current events.


People will probably notice that I am more prone to state things then try to convince others I am right. I don't want to shut down ideas or possibilities. Caring more about my own inner balance. I will only "debate" if it really matters to me: to the point that I “have no choice” but to speak out.

I often see all sides and understand why my way is not the only right or logical one. So, I rarely take anyone up on things they say. In recollection, I have only ever told two poster's they were outright incorrect, and have never put anyone on ignore or reported anything.

In real life I am much the same. Even if I disagree strongly with people, I can usually at least see where they are coming from or why? I care more about understanding and applying things then the right or wrong of them present in other’s. {However, some essential truths are worthy of defending unequivocally and merit strong reactions}.


Between 14-19 I lost three friends in auto & snowmobile accidents, another to suicide and one to a brain tumour. It became very important to me to ‘make real connections and let people know what they mean to me’, because of life’s uncertainty.

There are other life experiences I have had that I could cite as explanation for the reasons I am how I am. But, I won’t. They are intensely private. So, instead I try to find other ways to communicate with people:

I try to find street art that tells people “I understand you a little. I see you. You matter to me.” or “I don’t understand you exactly, but I get a kick out of our differences”.

I invite people to threads or I dedicate songs to them to say “You mean something to me” or “Thank you for teaching me things and sharing yourself.”

In real life I will often start a hot topic and sit back and listen to the ensuing discussions. This is a bit of a trick. I know if I start & drop topics, it eliminates the "why are you so quiet" element. I will get to learn.

I often start topics here and then 'sit back to listen' too. Because I am genuinely interested in what people have to say. If I contribute, I am more likely to make observations or ask questions then I am to challenge or dissent.


When I am with people - IRL OR on the forum - THEY are my focus. My upbringing has made it so: attending to people is important to me. That others feel acknowledged, that they have a good time, that they don't get forgotten.

But, all this is social conditioning combined with a natural love for people. My NATURAL inclination is not social.

I agree with [MENTION=12103]Poki[/MENTION]’s thoughts from page 1. Fi is less outwardly social but a genuine care for people is there.


When I interact with someone they have 100% of my focus and are the centre of my world {in that moment}. That level can only be sustainable for short periods of time.

It is alone or with one treasured person (at a time) that I feel most comfortable and will just be entirely natural.


It is my own fault that I still think in some measure: I am a disappointment if I am not "the most optimal version of myself". And, that I don't have trust to expose my more vulnerable, shy side more.

Working on it.


I have always been an overall naturally happy and content person and share that part of myself freely. I am still learning to share the anger, disappointments, frustrations… also. I tend to process those emotions alone or with trusted confidantes.

 

[Poki]

[MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION], i think people get so stuck on action as if they know the reason behind it. i tend to disagree on typings of people quite a bit. i cant go soley off of shallow actions, i need to understand whats behind them on an individual scale, not a theoretical scale. i want accurate reality, not theoristically probable.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

Yes, it's not about what is said, but rather, finding the thinking patterns that drive what is said.

This is invaluable.

Is there a way to read between the lines without also injecting our own personal biases into the mix? I like to try and be as objective as possible when dealing with things such as this, but I admit, it can be extremely difficult at times to do so. Or, should we assume it's not possible to be objective and be OK with that?

Just throwing some thoughts out there.

I like to listen carefully to what people say because I think people tell you their truth. But, also agree that reading the shades and between the words is vital. I have always liked this quote that addresses the pro's and con's:


A good listener doesn't interpret, doesn't try to fit what you're saying into any kind of category. He or she sincerely wants to get what it is you're experiencing and what it is you're trying to say. With an innocent and open mind. It is something they've never heard before, something fresh and present.

A good listener doesn't just sit and listen. They will take action to get to understand what is going on for you, ask questions, take your hand and jump off a cliff with you, to find out where you're going.

A good listener makes you feel more present, more courageous, more ready to reveal truths you've never before revealed.

A good listener makes you say things that surprise yourself. You go places while you're talking, new places.

"Effective listeners remember that "words have no meaning - people have meaning." The assignment of meaning to a term is an internal process; meaning comes from inside us. And although our experiences, knowledge and attitudes differ, we often misinterpret each other’s messages while under the illusion that a common understanding has been achieved."

— Larry Barker

 

[Z Buck McFate]

"Effective listeners remember that "words have no meaning - people have meaning." The assignment of meaning to a term is an internal process; meaning comes from inside us. And although our experiences, knowledge and attitudes differ, we often misinterpret each other’s messages while under the illusion that a common understanding has been achieved."

— Larry Barker

This is fantastic. So, so true.

There's a Rilke quote I've always loved that says something along a similar vein. (If I manage to find it, I'll share it later.)

eta:

I noticed early in life that outward expression of strong Fi (tho I didn’t know at the time this is WHAT it was) was not practically valued or even greatly understood.

If you have the time, would you describe a specific example of what you mean by outward expression of strong Fi? It doesn't have to be something you actually did as a kid, it can be hypothetical, I'm just wondering what you mean when you say this. (If you feel too hounded by this topic, I'll totally understand if you've had enough and don't feel like expounding. )

 

[Hawthorne]

The above makes thoughts on functional development highly relevant. At what point does the experiemental stage end and do preferences, whether internally or externally established, become "set" as that person's personality type? Various "sources" claim cementation at various ages. From as young as 2 to as old as mid 20s.

 

[mystik_INFJ]

Incredibly nervous. I am a somewhat private person & this feels like opening myself up MUCH more than feels comfortable.

M A K I N G myself do it (wry grin).

I came here new - 4 months ago as an INFP - and have tested as one for many years.


Yet, almost daily I am asked: if I am not in fact an INFJ?. Sometimes I get this query a FEW times a day. It leads me to wonder what are other's seeing that I am not?


I have had many posts or messages saying that my words or style brings to mind: Amargith (Only HOPE to be as cool as she is 'when I grow up' ). Or, I have been asked a couple times if I AM Amargith using a newer account (laughs). She of course is an INFJ.

Many other INFJ's keep asking me if I am perhaps wrong about: INFP-dom?


There is something you need to know before answering: I was happily married to an INFJ who died (not a bid for sympathy, I am at peace with it now). BUT, I think I have taken on a lot of his qualities because:
1) I want to honor him; his mental/social brilliance and pragmatism
2) It's a way of keeping his essence as a part of me, going forward.
I think (?) this may account somewhat for the dynamics people are observing.


Open for feedback. No sentimental investment in being an 'INFP'. Simply want: the"most accurate understanding" of self.

Thank you in advance

>^.,.^<

Ohai! I found your hidden treasure island thread. You told me before that you get this (you're not INFP stuff) from many people.

I don't think that most people that talk to you know you. I mean, I've talked to you on your highs and on your lows and have always seen you to migrate slowly to your INFP point of gravity whenever life knocks you off normal course. And you had a lot of hard times in the past and recently. As an INFJ, I can say you do not react like one when it comes to hard times, you don't display the "Fe" desperation of loneliness. When times are hard you seek for answers within yourself, and that I think it's a very Fi thing to do. We INFJs have Ni-Ti loops, where we jump from intuition to logic, which causes our Fe to become very broken. I have not seen this in you during hard times.

I found a very good description of Fi Si loops, and once you read it you will understand what I mean:

infps who go into Fi Si can't get out of the past. they're trapped in the past, the world is invisible and they cannot merge and get new information. they are an alien creature inhabiting a future world that never comes (makes me think of he nick drake documentary "a stranger among us"). their values that help them understand how the world as a whole and how themselves as a whole fit together, get fucked up/corrupted and there's no way to bring them together again (so it seems). with Si the judgments of Fi just get rehearsed and practiced and recited over and over again with no ability to unstick them, unsettle them, create a bit more play or potential movement or room to breathe. the ability to change perspectives goes away bc Si combs out all possibilities, instead deciding to focus on the attributes that reinforce the feeling rather than those that show its limitations and incompletenesses. (think jack kerouac).

It's a very old post, but it fits you like a glove, you know exactly why I say this. You do cling to the past and wish to have it in your life, but it isn't there. This has caused dark skies in the past and it's understandable why.

You also have incredible resilience. You output more resilience than any INFJ would ever be able to do. This is because your Fi battles reality constantly and does not submit to it. Broken Fe leads to corrupted Fe and corrupted Fe is utterly shit to those around you. Yet, I have not seen you throw any blames at all, not even in your darkest hours. You take the blame and put it on yourself alone.

I have no doubt about your INFP-ness.

 

[Tilt]

[MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION], I can't see you as anything BUT INFP.

You actually remind me a lot of my 947 or 974 SX/SO INFP mother but you seem more polished, intellectual, and guarded.

She's incredibly sweet, positive (wants to give the benefit of the doubt to almost everyone), highly sensitive to the negativity in the world and general crudeness, very punny/witty, and, above all else, very creative with words and imagery. She's what I would call an idealistic dreamer/child at heart. There is rarely an air of pretense around her. She doesn't fit into the angsty, self-absorbed stereotype that tends to plague INFPs.

At surface level, she might look slightly IXFJ but the Fi is quite evident when she gets upset or offended over one of her personal values.

EDIT: The funny thing is my brother is probably 451 SP/SX or 461 SP/SX INFP and he and my mother present RADICALLY different... he's astutely critical, notably intellectual. highly opinionated, knows how to size people and makes on-point commentary/criticisms, and is self-indulgent in negative emotions.

The only thing I question is your core 4, [MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION].

 

[Cloudpatrol]

[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]

I took this to mean it is ok if I respond as I have just done.

Excellent. My intent was to encourage speaking freely.

On the forum or you also see it in your answer on childhood?

On the forum, and upon reflection probably in certain IRL social settings as well.

I cannot comment on the effects of tragedy, but I guess the rest of this strikes me as an NFJ child still.

I admire you for not doing so. Sincerely. I sought help dealing with the aftermath from trained professionals and even THEY sought outside help with some of the complexities. So, I do not expect this aspect of myself to be well understood in this setting.

Even well-behaved IxFP children tend to resist being who someone else wants/needs them to be unless it aligns with their own reasoning. More on that below….

I did not behave in a certain way to appease my family. I sensed what people desired of me, analyzed the situation and made deliberate choices.

I have an acting background and I compare it to when I would immerse myself in a character. I could embody that person to the point that an audience would believe it to be “so”. But, I never lost sight within myself of who I actually was and shed that persona when the performance was over. Acting is considered "The Big Lie" so I understand if that seems disingenuous to people. It doesn't to me. I still "fake it till I make it" in many social situations and feel the success is worth sacrificing privacy to do so.

I don't believe in "using" functions. I think type is ego. It is an identity, a whole mentality, etc. Test scores mean little for people who have been into typology for awhile, and they are more often inaccurate than not.
I think the official MBTI notes people often score up to two letters wrong. This is why I think noting ego type is best for people who are very unsure and have been around personality typology awhile.

I both agree and disagree on these counts. Let me explain: I have been around typology for much of my life and have used it in business. I too know how types can be erroneously applied by testing and prefer a well-balanced methodology.

I AM a strong believer in “using” functions, however. I don’t downplay the ego construct but am greatly interested in the willful and functional application of knowledge regarding shadow and inferior functions. For now, (at this point in my learning) this is where my beliefs fall.

Interestingly, Lenore Thompson makes this comment (from Personality Type - An Owner's Manual):
"The insistent theme that runs through these FP [mythological stories] is the hopeful idea that if everyone developed Introverted Feeling, external boundaries wouldn't matter anymore. We'd realize that all people are unique, have their own gifts, and are valuable as fellow humans. And it may be noted, in this respect, that people whose subjective experience has led them to champion this kind of vision almost always get high INFP scores on type tests."

Notice she doesn't say these people actually are INFP....

What I notice with such people is while they identify with INFP and Fi at its best, they don't identify much with the negatives. I dont care how "healthy" or "mature" someone is or what they've been through, they are inevitably flawed. So when someone doesn't identify with any negatives of a type, it can suggest to me they are avoiding identifying their own ego in order to avoid identifying those blind spots.

I see strenghths of Fi and INFPs in you, but the weaknesses, the blind spots, etc, are something else.

I haven’t read the Lenore Thompson book and am thankful to you for pointing me in that direction. The quote is compelling and I don’t discount it.

I feel that there would be a certain amount of hubris in objecting to 'blind spots and weaknesses' I have. No one is 100% self aware and I am a highly flawed individual.

I do spend a lot of time in self-analysis and soliciting feedback from people in my life both personal and professional. I jealously guard access to my perceptions of such. I am unsure to what extent - even a very perceptive person - could accurately discern in what areas I am most self-deceptive/fall short because of this. However, I do think this IS entirely possible once talking to me IRL and earning my trust (as mytik_INFJ referred to in his post).

How do you know she is ENFJ?

You mean with 100% accuracy? I wouldn’t claim to. She strikes me as one. She self-tests as one and was identified as such when she (previously) sought assistance from a Head-Hunter in finding employment.

Does your husband being INFJ rule out INFJ?

No.

I have several INFJ’s in my life. Was romantically involved with one for many years and married another. So, I do feel acquainted with the thinking style, processing, stress-handling… I have never felt it resonated as well as INFP descriptions but I have felt kinship in some areas with INFJ-dom, sure.

I don’t find any type a PERFECT fit. But, whereas INFJ feels like putting on my Brother’s huge sweatshirt, INFP feels like putting on my own sweater that has shrunk in the dryer. Both are somewhat ill-fitting but can still be put on easily. One just feels more “mine” even if I have to stretch it a bit to make it fit my individual shape…

You must see it is poor reasoning to say you cannot be a type because you dont get along with or relate to an individual of that type....
I mean, I dont relate to you or your general style (although I find you likable); does that mean only one of us could be INFP?

Never was my reasoning as I agree it would be lacking in logic

My reasoning is actually based on deductive logic. Step One: I have loved ones who are ISFJ, INFJ and ENFJ. Step Two: I am highly analytical of human behaviour and a keen observer. Step Three: So, I then compare my own thinking, emotional responses, esteem make-up, response to negative stimuli etc…and evaluate if my ways co-relate to what I see in those types. Of course like all scientific pursuits, this is based on hypothesis and the broader scale may defeat my control group due to the highly individual nature of people.

That is one narrow avenue in the freeway of my Typology interests. There are also different schools of thought (Jungian, Briggs…), impartial descriptions, function stacks… I strive to apply ALL the arrows to the map, hoping it will clearly point to a final typing destination.

You don't feel tethered to the views of others....anymore. But you did as a child.

Hmm, this actually required some thinking over time, on my part.

This is a very difficult thing to explain and something I am loathe to even share in some ways. But, your post was so thoughtful, I want to honor it.

I don’t feel ‘tethered’ or bound by the ideas or expectations of other’s unless I see the validity in them. This has been constant since childhood. To illustrate:

Compatible so complimentary: When I was a girl I knew that my Dad especially loved it when I was entertaining and accomplished. I decided this wasn’t an imposition. I am competitive and wanted to be at the top of my class and excel at things anyway. I enjoyed performing and it allowed me to ‘disappear even in public’. When I regaled people with stories, they weren’t asking me about myself. I felt like our interests in how I presented myself were compatible. So I 'stretched myself' socially until an age where I felt that such a way of life no longer matched my core interests and pursuits. The energy it was costing me, was not worth it.

Not compatible so uncompromising: When I was 16 I fell in love. My family was moving to another Province and I let them know that I would be remaining in my hometown and moving out on my own. My Father did not approve and stopped communicating with me for a time. I was not swayed.

I knew that my faith in the man I loved was well placed, that I would continue with my education and I was capable of being responsible for myself in an adult way. I had been taught to fight for what I believed in by my Dad. I was open to feedback from those in my life but ultimately made the choices I believed in despite pressure to do otherwise.

This dynamic isn’t about individuality for me but about being true to what I believe. What I feel constitutes being a successful and TRUE human.

I only fear judgement if I agree personally with that condemnation, as being accurate.

I totally get the fear of infiltration IF what stains or sinks in, is contrary to what I value.

I tend to score very closely on Fi and Fe and honestly don’t have a dog in the fight when it comes to what I think I am. I score a smidgen higher on Fi and feel like it represents more of my inner world but I totally get how I can just as easily get down in the mud with Fe. If I am INFP or INFJ or ISFJ...I will be content because ultimately I am ME. That doesn't change with designation.

I DO value having accurately focused advice and practical help in human interaction and THAT is why what type I am matters to me at all.

 

[chubber]

What is your enneagram sub type stacking?

When you're stressed, do you command people or do you take action?

 

[misfortuneteller]

people that can't tell whether they are an INFJ or an INFP tend to be INFPs because INFPs are more common and INFPs tend to rely more on the type descriptions and say ''that's me'' which can be annoying.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Judging by the thread size you are probably overthinking this. Read a few profiles of each types and decide which type profiles attract you the most.

After all in the end type is only abstract construct that may not even matter.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

What is your enneagram sub type stacking?

When you're stressed, do you command people or do you take action?

I am working on a response to your first question. You are so capable in reasoning on these matters that I want to make sure of the answer I deliver. I am looking forward to your input.

When I am moderately to highly stressed I take action. I rarely command people unless in a managerial role and even then I prefer to present things as a "team endeavour" than "making someone do something". The action I take is to: engage in physical activity, choose to be around people who make me laugh, engage in art or make myself get more sleep.

When I am EXTREMELY stressed and also VERY tired, I am an idiot. It's difficult for me to admit this. I will self-sabatoge due to fear, be emotional over things that wouldn't normally bother me, say things I don't mean... It's wounding when people then get upset (as they well should) because I actually HATE myself like this and am working very hard to change it. I can MAKE myself not act that way - if someone I care for gives me an ultimatum - that the behaviour isn't acceptable. But, it takes an incredible amount of self-control not to give in to feelings and I've learnt the best thing for me to do is 'put myself to bed'. Sleep literally works instantly.

I am always very apologetic but I "get" that apologies don't mean anything to loved ones if the behaviour doesn't change so I am working on this (with professional guidance) to put better coping skills into practice.

I also should share more with people who care about me. I tend to not divulge what is "going on" and try to handle things myself. I occasionally let trusted people in and accept support and this helps much = I need to utilize it more.

(blush)

Judging by the thread size you are probably overthinking this. Read a few profiles of each types and decide which type profiles attract you the most.

After all in the end type is only abstract construct that may not even matter.

Did you read the thread?

I am asking because I have explained numerous times (last paragraph of my most recent post here) where this falls on the scale of importance to me. Also, the thread arose because of other people having distinct opinions on my type, not from my own confusion

It also reveals having done the bold. No worries [MENTION=4347]Virtual ghost[/MENTION], as I don't read all threads in entirety either. I just wanted to bring you up to speed. I HAVE greatly benefitted from your advice/thoughts on enneagram in other threads and have found enneagram helpful in getting 'down to specifics'.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

[MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION], I can't see you as anything BUT INFP.

You actually remind me a lot of my 947 or 974 SX/SO INFP mother but you seem more polished, intellectual, and guarded.

She's incredibly sweet, positive (wants to give the benefit of the doubt to almost everyone), highly sensitive to the negativity in the world and general crudeness, very punny/witty, and, above all else, very creative with words and imagery. She's what I would call an idealistic dreamer/child at heart. There is rarely an air of pretense around her. She doesn't fit into the angsty, self-absorbed stereotype that tends to plague INFPs.

At surface level, she might look slightly IXFJ but the Fi is quite evident when she gets upset or offended over one of her personal values.

EDIT: The funny thing is my brother is probably 451 SP/SX or 461 SP/SX INFP and he and my mother present RADICALLY different... he's astutely critical, notably intellectual. highly opinionated, knows how to size people and makes on-point commentary/criticisms, and is self-indulgent in negative emotions.

The only thing I question is your core 4, [MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION].

Thanks for your thoughts! In subsequent conversations, I have related to your Mom even more (grin).

I honestly think that INFP descriptions need overhauling. I couldn't understand some of my 6 friends until I learnt the difference between CP6 and 6. I think that INFP would benefit from some delineation also. I have had INFP friends and co-worker's who totally fit the bill with being dreamy, isolated and anti-social in many regards. Other's have questioned where their entrepreneurial, prolific creativity, social graces...fit in.

I also think ISFJ descriptions need an overhaul. I greatly admire [MENTION=23583]Yamato Nadeshiko[/MENTION]'s efforts and [MENTION=24479]themightyfetus[/MENTION] also for how they are working to change perceptions. I have two VERY close ISFJ friend's and don't find the descriptions apt in many ways. I also find there are distinctly different forms of ISFJ as well. My two friends have distinct differences but also some base commonalities.

Of course this entire system of classification IS based on generalizations but I still think some tweaks could be made.

I would love to know what you see as being my core? Or welcome any questions in that regard

Ohai! I found your hidden treasure island thread. You told me before that you get this (you're not INFP stuff) from many people.

I don't think that most people that talk to you know you. I mean, I've talked to you on your highs and on your lows and have always seen you to migrate slowly to your INFP point of gravity whenever life knocks you off normal course. And you had a lot of hard times in the past and recently. As an INFJ, I can say you do not react like one when it comes to hard times, you don't display the "Fe" desperation of loneliness. When times are hard you seek for answers within yourself, and that I think it's a very Fi thing to do. We INFJs have Ni-Ti loops, where we jump from intuition to logic, which causes our Fe to become very broken. I have not seen this in you during hard times.

I found a very good description of Fi Si loops, and once you read it you will understand what I mean:



It's a very old post, but it fits you like a glove, you know exactly why I say this. You do cling to the past and wish to have it in your life, but it isn't there. This has caused dark skies in the past and it's understandable why.

You also have incredible resilience. You output more resilience than any INFJ would ever be able to do. This is because your Fi battles reality constantly and does not submit to it. Broken Fe leads to corrupted Fe and corrupted Fe is utterly shit to those around you. Yet, I have not seen you throw any blames at all, not even in your darkest hours. You take the blame and put it on yourself alone.

I have no doubt about your INFP-ness.

This meant much to me.

I had actually forgotten how beautifully you write

 

[Cloudpatrol]

This is fantastic. So, so true.

There's a Rilke quote I've always loved that says something along a similar vein. (If I manage to find it, I'll share it later.)

eta:


If you have the time, would you describe a specific example of what you mean by outward expression of strong Fi? It doesn't have to be something you actually did as a kid, it can be hypothetical, I'm just wondering what you mean when you say this. (If you feel too hounded by this topic, I'll totally understand if you've had enough and don't feel like expounding. )

If you ever find the quote, I would love to hear it.

In the most basic sense I meant that: I learnt that people did not favour hearing the gazillion inner thoughts I had. They would either be uncomfortable, argue them, or put me on a pedestal for being a "magical creature". So, I learnt to keep most inner thoughts inside and imitate the more successfully social people that surrounded me. While, guarding and maintaining my inner worlds for private or rarely shared consumption.

Since I was very little I have had a recurring dream about a city. It's as real to me as any place I have ever lived. To the point that I sometimes will suggest a restaurant and then blushing - change the subject when I realize it's a restaurant that exists in my dream city - not in real life. When I was little I talked about this city a lot. Adults made me stop.

I used to strongly believe that I could disappear into holes in the clouds or spaces between the bark in the trees. As I got older, it became more of a wistful wishing. Now, I remember the wish but not the actual feeling or earlier belief. People made fun of and idealized these ways of thinking.

When I was 5 and went on a drive with my Grandpa (who I LOVED) we had such a nice time. He had picked me up from my baby-sitter and I knew that no one really knew where we were. He took me to the town he grew up in and showed me where the ice-cream shop his family had owned was and we talked about everything under the sun. I 'rewarded' him by sharing what I had been thinking as we drove: that "we were alone and far away enough from everyone we knew that he could kill me and burn my body leaving the ashes on a country road and probably never be caught".

My Grandpa was HORRIFIED and I got sat down in a circle of adults soon after getting home. The thing was that I never in a million years would have thought my Grandpa would even have hit me. He was the mildest, most loving person. I was showing my love by sharing an idea that had occurred to me. It didn't mean anything more than my imagination had suggested and I was fancifully sharing it. I have always been interested in crime, murder, death etc. for as long as I have memory.

When I said the above re: not sharing Fi I was thinking of things such as this...

The above makes thoughts on functional development highly relevant. At what point does the experiemental stage end and do preferences, whether internally or externally established, become "set" as that person's personality type? Various "sources" claim cementation at various ages. From as young as 2 to as old as mid 20s.

Salient [MENTION=23915]Hawthorne[/MENTION]! I am obsessed with this aspect and am researching still. Do you have any strong thoughts on the matter?

I had rejected being 5 due to what I had researched but honestly, ONE paragraph of yours made me look at it anew. If you ever feel like offering more info of your view of 5ness, I would welcome it earnestly.

 

[Tilt]

[MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION], I could see more as 9 core more than 4 core. At least on the surface, I don't see you as being melancholy, brooding, dark... I don't sense much reactivity coming through in your interactions and posts... Which I often sense from e4 Fi users. You come a lot more light and positive, and conflict-avoidant/neutral.

You energy/vibe reminds me of Udog INFP 9w1 (very smart, curious, calm, and easy-going) and a bit of ene INFJ 9w8 (at least somewhat similar writing style) - she originally typed as 5w4.

 

[robert666]

I am asking because I have explained numerous times (last paragraph of my most recent post here) where this falls on the scale of importance to me. Also, the thread arose because of other people having distinct opinions on my type, not from my own confusion

Does this mean that you are certain of your MBTI type?

 

[Cloudpatrol]

Does this mean that you are certain of your MBTI type?

Degrees of Cat’s Certainty scale:

1 = that all humans die, that the earth orbits the sun

2 = that cake is delicious, that most people have good intentions

3 = that the economy won’t collapse, that good will triumph over evil

4 = that disease will remain subservient to modern antibiotics, that humans won’t always use power to dominate other humans


My certainty of my own MBTI type is not 1. This means I am still open to evidence that is compelling and stands up to scrutiny. My confidence in certainty of self-prescribed Enneagram and Socionics is closer to 3-4. I still have a LOT to learn.