What it be? Can you help me?

[Dyslexxie]

[MENTION=26046]Dyslexxie[/MENTION]

I've actually read that very same article probably about five times in the past. I've also watched all of EJ ARENDEE 's YouTube videos on the subject of INTP vs INTJ and others. They always tend to say one thing about INTP's where my response is "Oh, that sounds just like me." But then they'll say something about INTJ and I'll think "Oh, that... also sounds just like me." Ultimately it's gotten me nowhere of course except stirred up more of my own confusion.

I absolutely am organized externally, though. But then there's the question of whether I'm organized because I am naturally that way, or because I know that if I'm not, I could end up in bad situations. In my younger years especially, though, I was highly competitive in the sense of feeling my own achievements made me superior to others around me who clearly didn't apply or structure themselves. I do not think that feeling in particular was instilled into me by anything other than nature, so perhaps that slides the scale more towards the J side. Though, I've heard that a feeling of superiority, even arrogance, is common among both INTPs and INTJs prior to adequate maturation.

Haha it's okay, that's my issue with ESTP versus ENTP for myself, and they're not even similar. Self-perception is so inaccurate.
It's even harder for introverts because your first extraverted function is an auxiliary function instead of dominant, so IxxPs’ dominant mode of functioning is Judging (Fi and Ti) and IJs’ is Perceiving (Si and Ni) - it's all backwards.

IxxPs often function with the need for objectiveness and needing to 'finalize' and pindown their thoughts, feelings, ideas, etc. They're excellent about setting things in motion because of their focused Fi/Ti, but then the chaotic Ne/Se sets in and they can get sidetracked like us ExxPs, which makes them feel frustrated and cause them to become rigid and chaotic, until they're able to return back to a point of control.

IxxJs can also appear organized and have a need to control their environment, but their inner mode of operation is through perceiving (Ni/Si) so their mental process is a lot more subjective and open than it would be for an IxxP. They tend to value quality over quantity and can get easily caught up in loops of perfectionism where they can't move on from a task because they want it to be juuuuuust right, but they're able to more easily let go than IxxPs and start over.

INTPs come off as more relaxed externally than INTJs, but internally they're huge control freaks, while it's the opposite with INTJs. Both are really organized regardless, but INTJs can let go a little better I find. My INTJ friend can handle being wrong much better than my INTP dad, that's for sure. If my friend realizes he's wrong he'll feel embarrassed but he'll accept it and just end up reading more to correct his knowledge and come back dorkier than ever, while my dad will get angry and irrational until he can adjust his information - probably because his inner control freak feels compromised lol.

 

[Dimwittian]

[MENTION=27495]Punderstorm[/MENTION]

I've certainly read the bit about J's needing closure as well from multiple sources, but contrasting that, P's by definition constantly doubt themselves, which is exactly what I'm doing whenever I start concluding myself a J. Further, there's no concrete way for me to have certainty that I really do have inferior Se. I feel confident that there's a strong positive correlation between me being stressed and me being very aware of everything around me, in particular when I feel confident that given enough effort I can overcome whatever is causing me the stress. But I recall there have also been situations where I've retreated into my own head, my own 'world' so to speak, in response to a stressful situation, particularly in times where I don't feel like I have control over the situation at hand. So I feel confident about the inferior Se, but it's very difficult for me to say with certainty because the past is very hard for me, my memories usually feel like fuzzy generalizations.

Out of curiosity, are any of the functions that when placed in the inferior spot are known for that reaction under stress - retreating into a fantasy world and forgetting the real world?

I now feel about 98% confident that I'm a T over an F, due to my constant rigorous analysis in this thread in response to all of your thoughts. So I'm going to add that letter to my profile. I feel nearly certain of it.

Also, is either of Ti or Te associated with thoughts and emotions not feeling "real" until they are verbalized and expressed in the real world? I often have little trust for my inner thoughts until I outwardly verbalize them (not sure if that would suggest the 'extroverted' bit in extroverted thinking), and my deep, inner feelings almost never feel real to me until I write my thoughts on them down on a piece of paper and then read my thoughts back to myself from the paper. Lately I've even taken to picking up the piece of paper with my thoughts written on it and dropping it and watching it fall, telling myself "My thoughts are tangible, written on this paper, and gravity is causing them to fall. Therefore, they are without a doubt real."

 

[Dimwittian]

[MENTION=26046]Dyslexxie[/MENTION]

"IxxPs often function with the need for objectiveness and needing to 'finalize' and pindown their thoughts, feelings, ideas, etc. They're excellent about setting things in motion because of their focused Fi/Ti, but then the chaotic Ne/Se sets in and they can get sidetracked like us ExxPs, which makes them feel frustrated and cause them to become rigid and chaotic, until they're able to return back to a point of control."

I can't even describe in words just how well this block resonates with me. One of the biggest, most influential and pervasive cycles in my life is one of chaos followed by order, breaking myself down followed by reconstructing myself. In the past I've even related it to a character from The Elder Scrolls series (if you've heard of it), Sheogorath, who would in his mythology go through periods where he is completely crazy, wild, unpredictable, and playful. Then, every so often, a transformation would occur where an alter-ego of his, named Jyggalyg would come into the picture and restore order. Sheogorath was in nature crazy, destructive, and was dressed in all sorts of colors. Jyggalyg by contrast was strong, rigid, with an all-grey color. Singly, the Sheogorath/Jyggalyg character is the one I relate to more strongly than any other.

I can also say with confidence that I very often feel like I'm perceived to be much, much calmer on the outside than I actually am on the inside.

Hum. I'm actually surprised how extremely well I related to certain parts of your post there. Now I'm leaning towards P.

 

[Dyslexxie]

IPs: IPs are a mix of J-P characteristics. Since their dominant function is a Judging function (Ti or Fi), they are inner Judgers. IPs are far more serious inwardly than they appear outwardly. Rather than remaining open to new information like healthy EPs, they feel driven to move toward closure and to have things settled in their minds like EJs. They want to hammer down what they believe in order to have a platform from which to make important decisions about their lives. When their beliefs shaken into state of uncertainty, IPs tend to feel unsettled, aimless, and anxious. This anxiety prompts them to avidly locate answers so they can return to a point of comfortable closure and intentional action.

IPs are also like EJs in that they tend to think in terms of what they should be doing. They like to set goals for themselves (especially INPs), even if they rarely end up sticking to them. They tend to approach life with an agenda or a certain set of expectations. Upon waking, they consciously work to determine what they want to/should do and then initiate the process. At least when it comes to initiating tasks, IPs are as disciplined as any EJ.

It is only after starting a task that IPs can get sidetracked and start looking more like EPs. This is understandable when we examine IPs’ functional stack. They start off with a judgment (Fi or Ti), which impels them to begin work on a task. Once started, however, the next function in their stack is a Perceiving function (Ne or Se), which may lead them to get distracted or sidetracked, even to the point of losing sight of their original purpose (this is why IPs are sometimes said to lack follow-through or staying power.). This can be frustrating for IPs, since the endpoint or “goal” of their functional stack (i.e., their inferior function) is to reach a state of judgment or closure (Fe or Te). This helps to explain why IPs may at times be sloppy or careless in their work, since they are driven by a desire for closure. It also explains why IPs may resist being interrupted in the middle of a project, fearing this could hinder them from reaching a conclusion or endpoint. And since IPs like to be in control of both starting and finishing what their projects, they cannot rightly be considered spontaneous in the way that EPs are, at least not with respect to responding to other people. Just as EJs are sometimes viewed as outer control freaks, IPs have their own inner control freak.

We might summarize IPs’ process in the following way:

J Starting point: Ti or Fi (“I should or want to do…”)

Move into auxiliary (P): Ne or Se (may get sidetracked or distracted here)

Desired J Endpoint: Fe or Te closure

Visually, this process resembles a diamond. IPs start with a specific objective (Ti or Fi), diverge outwardly (Se or Ne), then work to reign in this expansion and bring it toward a point of closure (Fe or Te). A similar process would be seen among EJ types. Also note that the above process is the optimal way for IPs to function. In many cases, they can be in such a hurry to reach closure that they essentially forgo the P process between their two J endpoints. Elaine Schallock has dubbed this “jumping the (functional) stack.”

Like EJs, IPs can also be prone to labeling many Perceiving activities “a waste of time.” This may lead them to consider IJs or EPs as lazy and unproductive. But at some level, IPs, especially when faced with an overwhelming mental “to-do” list, may envy IJs’ and EPs’ ability to just relax and Perceive. Some IPs simply don’t know how to relax or “do nothing.” Their minds are constantly thinking ahead to what they could do next.

In sum, IPs prefer inner closure because it allows them to act with a sense of conviction and intentionality. At times, however, this can lead them to prematurely truncate Perceiving, which can lead to errors in judgment; they are willing to risk some degree of accuracy for the sake of swift closure. This is consistent with the notion of Judging types “jumping to conclusions.”

Hope this helps.

 

[Dimwittian]

[MENTION=26046]Dyslexxie[/MENTION]

"IPs are far more serious inwardly than they appear outwardly. Rather than remaining open to new information like healthy EPs, they feel driven to move toward closure and to have things settled in their minds like EJs."

That's me.

"When their beliefs shaken into state of uncertainty, IPs tend to feel unsettled, aimless, and anxious. This anxiety prompts them to avidly locate answers so they can return to a point of comfortable closure and intentional action."

Precisely the reason I started this thread.

"IPs are also like EJs in that they tend to think in terms of what they should be doing. They like to set goals for themselves (especially INPs), even if they rarely end up sticking to them."

Yep, that's 100% me.

"It is only after starting a task that IPs can get sidetracked and start looking more like EPs. This is understandable when we examine IPs’ functional stack. They start off with a judgment (Fi or Ti), which impels them to begin work on a task. Once started, however, the next function in their stack is a Perceiving function (Ne or Se), which may lead them to get distracted or sidetracked, even to the point of losing sight of their original purpose (this is why IPs are sometimes said to lack follow-through or staying power.)."

Yep, that's me.

"This can be frustrating for IPs, since the endpoint or “goal” of their functional stack (i.e., their inferior function) is to reach a state of judgment or closure (Fe or Te)."

Yep. Me.

"It also explains why IPs may resist being interrupted in the middle of a project, fearing this could hinder them from reaching a conclusion or endpoint."

Me.

"But at some level, IPs, especially when faced with an overwhelming mental “to-do” list, may envy IJs’ and EPs’ ability to just relax and Perceive. Some IPs simply don’t know how to relax or “do nothing.” Their minds are constantly thinking ahead to what they could do next."

Completely me.

"In sum, IPs prefer inner closure because it allows them to act with a sense of conviction and intentionality."

Me.




Oh, that feels nice... finally closure. I'm around 92% certain I'm INTP now. The article you've linked is the first I've ever seen that explains away the similarities I've seen between the P and J descriptions that have kept me from reaching a certain conclusion. Oh, that's so.... so nice. I can't thank you enough. Seriously. Thank you. This is absolutely fantastic. I can't give your post enough likes.

Now I can finally start to take an in-depth look at the functions that govern me and the best way to handle them and understand myself, my thoughts, my actions. Thank you.

 

[Dyslexxie]

Yay, you're INTP!
Glad you were able to narrow it down.

 

[Forever]

All I know is, it be it be.

 

[Kheledon]

"For example INTj is Alpha Quadra (afraid of being silenced and judicious--normally in a general state of relaxation, but INTj can feel stress increasing) whereas INTp is Gamma Quadra (afraid of losing power and having its freedom curtailed and decisive--normally in a general state of stress or preparedness, but INTp can feel the state of relaxation)"​

Analyzing this section is very tricky for me, because when I was younger I had crippling social anxiety. I had no idea what relaxation even felt like until I found at-home Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy. Since I was normally in a constant state of stress, the feeling was VERY obvious to me when I started to feel relaxed. So the question then becomes was I feeling the relaxation profoundly because of my type, or because I was so used to feeling stressed constantly due to social anxiety? Today, I don't know that there's a big distinction between how profoundly I feel stress increasing and states of relaxation. Both are rather profound. It may be noteworthy however, that I think by nature I am a high-strung, intense, and intellectually passionate person. I have to make a very concrete, concentrated effort on a regular basis in order to keep myself in a relaxed state. Without this concentrated effort, I'm almost guaranteed to naturally gravitate towards a state of stress. But I could certainly be wrong. I could be a naturally relaxed person who's stressed often because of societal and familial pressure. I don't know.

That sounds INTp to me--high strung, needs to relax and can feel it (as a rare event) when it happens because the INTp lives in a near-constant state of preparedness and anxiety (i.e. stress). That's INTp, and this is a manifestation of the "decisive" trait (in the judicious/decisive Reinin dichotomy). INTj would live in a near-constant state of relative relaxation and obliviousness to its surroundings, but it can feel increasing stress (as a rare event that INTj wants to avoid). That's INTj and a manifestation of the "judicious" trait (in the judicious/decisive Reinin dichotomy).

Just confirming what you've already concluded--you are probably an INTp. INTp, I should add, has Fe as its PoLR (point of least resistance). INTp would be expected to indulge this function when its ego NiTe fails (for whatever reason), at which point INTp will turn to its role function (Si), but it's backed by an infantile (black/white/poorly-developed) PoLR (Fe). Se would be INTp's 5th (suggestive) function--weak, unconscious, but an area in which the INTp actively seeks assistance. That's what you're asking for in this thread--our "observations" about you. Again, sounds like an INTp to me.

 

[Dimwittian]

Yeah. I've forced myself to stop obsessing over it because it was distracting me from my schoolwork, which started to pile up and put tremendous noticeable stress on my body. But I've still thought about it some here and there. I very well could be a MBTI INTJ / Socionics INTp who idolizes the MBTI INTP / Socionics INTj ability to remain in a state of relaxation, and thus tries to adopt some of those behaviors. I'll never know for sure.

 

[Punderstorm]

Yeah. I've forced myself to stop obsessing over it because it was distracting me from my schoolwork, which started to pile up and put tremendous noticeable stress on my body. But I've still thought about it some here and there. I very well could be a MBTI INTJ / Socionics INTp who idolizes the MBTI INTP / Socionics INTj ability to remain in a state of relaxation, and thus tries to adopt some of those behaviors. I'll never know for sure.

Or you could be an INTP in Mbti and INTp in socoinics, it's actually normal to be a different type in socoinics.