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I want no bias here...

existence

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I don't really care about relevant, because just about everything is relevant to life. I find the truth, even in the lack of truth I flip it to truth by acknowledging and storing it as things people do and say for whatever reason. I don't just dismiss the thing that is said. It's a half detachment where I can't disconnect from a third party observer picking up things outside the actual topic of discussion.

Still sounds like what I said about you doing: "An internal physical/factual awareness. It is what it is according to the internalized facts which it is continually building upon."


But when left to my own accord I fall back to Ti and being married to an ENFJ at parties and such she threw, she loves to be the host, I woud try as much as possible to just escape and get away. You need more balloons, I am on i, yea, freedom at last. Or escape with a single person and chat. Man I got bitched at alot for it.

Yeah this is the typical ISTP thing I hear. I don't relate to this, I'm fine with parties and stuff as long as people do involve me as I don't really do it on my own.


So in conclusion Mr president, mbti defines our default function order, not our use everyday. It means our dom usually dolls out which function is gonna get the job. It may not be always right, but it's what it knows to do.

Yeah the other functions are subordinated to the dominant function like that.


Ha even as a strong Fe user, i relate to this, because one never knows if that one piece of information that you picked up from 10 years will be pivotal to an epiphany to your understanding of a particular person or a paradigm shift... or it just becomes pertinent to help solve a problem later down the road. I don't know if this is the Ni infused version, but I think that most things have truth within the constraints of each specific perspective but that is different the big objective Truth which can be hard to find because the information and the parameters tend to change over time.

Sounds very cool, though I don't do this stuff much. I think Absolute Truth is unreachable by humans. But we are always going towards it.


Awesome, man. :) Isn't it quite rewarding when you can combine your vast amounts of knowledge from multiple avenues/sources and use it to accomplish a goal or to help others? I just love that feeling... it's almost euphoric to me. It's been very useful for my job!

Again sounds like something cool I don't do much...


Kudos to you. I couldn't be like that all the time. People sometimes call me the "voice of reason" for them but it can be exhausting. The calm, collected nature of the average IXTX is something I personally greatly admire and try to learn from.

I'm the same way with ExFJ's - trying to learn Fe lately.
 

SearchingforPeace

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Ugh, I keep telling myself I am going to stop posting on this thread.... But I get sucked back in..:D

That about using different definitions was actually an euphemism for how you used way too loose associations based on your initial unconfirmed guess that I must be repressing my Fe as ENFJ.

Don't get me wrong, I understand you are trying to help.

And I'm def. interested in discussing this with you but note, it's NOT to get typed anymore, just simply interested in some thoughts you posted.

Rare means it doesn't really happen on my own - I copied my friend as I said.

I think you missed the main point where I said: I just don't pay attention to this sort of stuff most of the time. I don't focus on the group harmony, I'm focused on the task I'm doing. If someone draws me into an interaction/group then that can be cool tho'. I just don't initiate on my own and never did.
Ok, I didn't either. I was a "fuck you all" type person in my mind, just not in practice. I thought I never initiated. And I didn't, but somehow I ended up going to lunch with the boss everyday with him paying..... And everyone else quit working for him in months after the started, because he was a psycho asshole..... and I somehow just happened to schmooze people I needed to schmooze in order to get preferential treatment.... etc.

That's very cool, I'm usually deeply focused into one area only. Yeah, the deep hyperfocus, exactly that.

I don't know your tritype, but you got a 5 somewhere....

One problem Fe Doms and Auxs have is recognizing that their harmony, their group, includes themselves.
What do you mean by that, please say more on this.

Harmony. Harmony. Harmony. Fe is focused on others more than self. How others feel matters to Fe users in general, but for doms and auxs it is a big deal. We strongly suppress our Fi (whether in a 8 stack or a 4 with opposite directions), so we don't take in account our own emotions as much.

The growth point is understanding that harmony includes ourselves and we need to cut ourselves some slack, treating ourselves the way we treat others, caring about our own needs and wants as much if not more than the needs and wants of others. In other words, the Fe user needs to include themselves as part of the group that needs to be accommodated. They need to build some boundaries and say, "I can be selfish and I don't need to do something just because someone asked."

What do you mean by Ti starting to try and do Fe things?
Fe is people and external environment. Ti is not. Ti in the service of Fe kicks ass, with the ability to find meaning and purpose backed by logic and such.

But when Ti is in the lead during a loop, Ti tries to analyze people and relationships and meaning while lacking Fe. It is like a 3 year flying an airplane. It is wrong in its decisions, thinking it is right. It just creates errors where they don't exist.

No, some of your emotions may have been repressed but not your Fe as a cognitive function. You yourself mentioned you were still very social etc.
Not consciously. Not consciously. A NiTi loop throws Fe out of the conscious mind. You are blocked from seeing you are blocked. Super ego plays a dangerous game. I thought I was very different from how I acted. I didn't see the difference. I repressed my feelings. I was in hell, I should have been completely wrecked given what I had been going through for years. To break through the prison, I had a combination of massive things happen. I almost killed myself in the process.

So, yes, I still used Fe, but I was thinking everything was just logic and I didn't have feelings.
 

existence

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Ugh, I keep telling myself I am going to stop posting on this thread.... But I get sucked back in..:D

Same :p


Ok, I didn't either. I was a "fuck you all" type person in my mind, just not in practice. I thought I never initiated. And I didn't, but somehow I ended up going to lunch with the boss everyday with him paying..... And everyone else quit working for him in months after the started, because he was a psycho asshole..... and I somehow just happened to schmooze people I needed to schmooze in order to get preferential treatment.... etc.

I see. I don't do any of that myself. I also don't think of people as "fuck you all".


I don't know your tritype, but you got a 5 somewhere....

Right, I agree on that one.


Harmony. Harmony. Harmony. Fe is focused on others more than self. How others feel matters to Fe users in general, but for doms and auxs it is a big deal. We strongly suppress our Fi (whether in a 8 stack or a 4 with opposite directions), so we don't take in account our own emotions as much.

The growth point is understanding that harmony includes ourselves and we need to cut ourselves some slack, treating ourselves the way we treat others, caring about our own needs and wants as much if not more than the needs and wants of others. In other words, the Fe user needs to include themselves as part of the group that needs to be accommodated. They need to build some boundaries and say, "I can be selfish and I don't need to do something just because someone asked."

OK. I don't know how to set the group atmosphere myself. I can go along with it if someone else sets it, though. But I will not notice it much until they draw me in.

When I talked about feeling responsible for the group rarely, I meant there is only ONE specific example in my life: I maintain a chatroom and I'm an operator on the chatroom, I ban trolls if they violate the rules. This is my contribution to group harmony basically.

Does it make it more clear now to you as to how I relate to Fe?


Fe is people and external environment. Ti is not. Ti in the service of Fe kicks ass, with the ability to find meaning and purpose backed by logic and such.

But when Ti is in the lead during a loop, Ti tries to analyze people and relationships and meaning while lacking Fe. It is like a 3 year flying an airplane. It is wrong in its decisions, thinking it is right. It just creates errors where they don't exist.

I still have no idea what you mean by "meaning". It sounds vague to me if it does not refer to logical meaning. Logical meaning, as in, true/false, 1 + 1 = 2, etc.

Have you ever seen the Ti/Fe loop as contrasted to your Fe/Ti loop? :)

That would be in some ways similar and some ways the opposite.


Not consciously. Not consciously.

It wasn't your Fe that wasn't conscious, it was your Ti, unable to put together the facts to find your type, such as, facts on how you are social, ending up schmoozing people, etc.


A NiTi loop throws Fe out of the conscious mind. You are blocked from seeing you are blocked. Super ego plays a dangerous game. I thought I was very different from how I acted. I didn't see the difference.

Again, it was your Fe dominating your Ti, if you thought you were different from how you acted (also low Sensing). This is a typical FeNi problem.


I repressed my feelings. I was in hell, I should have been completely wrecked given what I had been going through for years. To break through the prison, I had a combination of massive things happen. I almost killed myself in the process.

Yes, any type can repress their emotions.


So, yes, I still used Fe, but I was thinking everything was just logic and I didn't have feelings.

I've been studying the Fe-doms, trying to see how they can call logic that thing they utilize. I'm not quite understanding of it yet. Though I'm getting there :)

For example, I have a good friend who's FeNi, she's still trying to find herself though like you were in that phase of your life. I recommended Jung to her, she's finally started reading it and pretty soon she got stuck on this passage:

"Everyone is, admittedly, orientated by the data with which the outer world provides him ; yet we see that this may be the case in a way that is only relatively decisive. Because it is cold out of doors, one man is persuaded to wear his overcoat, another from a desire to become hardened finds this unnecessary; one man admires the new tenor because all the world admires him, another withholds his approbation not because he dislikes him"

She instantly declared that this is biased and is just talking about "independent thinking" (a strong Fe value of hers, she sees it as related to a big social problem). She thought this was biased towards claiming extraverts can't be independent. I tried to explain to her twice that the examples are just examples but they are not the same as the concept of introversion and extraversion itself, which does not contain any statements about extraverts not being able to think for their own. In the end she said, okay, she'll read on and I said I'm sure it'll all add up for her eventually :)

This, in my opinion, is a very good example of how Fe cannot think what it cannot feel.

And, it's an example of when Fe-dom declares themselves logical. This isn't what I call logical myself because what I call logical is mathematics, not social values. This example about her thinking here is Fe logic, not Ti logic.
 

SearchingforPeace

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I still have no idea what you mean by "meaning". It sounds vague to me if it does not refer to logical meaning. Logical meaning, as in, true/false, 1 + 1 = 2, etc.
There is data and there is meaning. Data is useless without interpretation. A truth is meaningless without context. Understanding how things fit and the why behind it all is important.

Big Data is the rage currently. Massive numbers of data points can be extrapolated in order to show patterns. It isn't my field but I touched the periphery once or twice. The problem I have read about is that the results are only as good as the questions and understanding.

In major league baseball, sabermetrics is the name of the game, Moneyball idea. You mentioned sports and analysis in your first post, so I suspect you are familiar with it. Data analytics have shown distinct patterns that teams can use to get more efficiency from their players and budgets.

I live in the Dallas area and while the Rangers are not my team and I follow baseball extremely casually these days, I have followed how this played out in the last few years.

When the current ownership came in, they brought in a young data hound and Nolan Ryan. At first, they seemed to work together on building team success, getting to the World Series two years in a row.

But eventually Ryan was pushed out, especially after he objected to the roster changes. The team dropped off without Ryan in management and most of the discarded players had career years after leaving. The team had some improvement this year, but it isn't contending for the World Series.

The point is the data was useless without understanding.

I have had the opportunity over the years to see a lot of raw data regarding corporations and their decision making process. Many have become completely data driven, only working on data and case studies. Yet they often miss the forest for the trees. They do data driven decisions without meaning or value or impact or the big picture. I have seen the same crappy decision making over and over again.

The best entrepreneurs often move on gut feelings rather than data and logic.

Fe and Ni at the their best together find meaning and understanding and insight everywhere.

If you still struggle with what meaning is, go listen to Justin Bieber for a bit--he has a song in the topic.

Ultimately, this entire thread is one giant pursuit of meaning...

Have you ever seen the Ti/Fe loop as contrasted to your Fe/Ti loop? :)

That would be in some ways similar and some ways the opposite.

You can't loop two judging functions.

A ISTP or ESTP can loop into a SeFe loop. A TiNi would be theoretically possible if you bypassed your primary perceiving function.

I could do a FeSe loop, I guess, or even a SeTi loop. I suspect I did at times over the last few decades as I often rejected my intuition and feelings at times. Not good places.

A INTP or ENTP normally do NeFe loops. My INTP son does that. It is scary mixing endless possibilities with a need to find meaning externally. He gets off into some really bizarre paranoia.....

It wasn't your Fe that wasn't conscious, it was your Ti, unable to put together the facts to find your type, such as, facts on how you are social, ending up scmoozing people, etc.
I didn't care about type or personality or psychology, etc, even though they would have helped my work at the time. I wasn't consciously schmoozing. I wasn't trying to be a people person. I thought I sucked at socializing, even as I am damn good at it, connecting to people in seconds and finding ways to touch them without effort.

Yes, people trusted me and connected to me easily, but I didn't see that. I didn't have conscious awareness about how easily I navigated social structures. And since I tried to consciously navigate them with Ti, I really screwed things up for myself on more than a few occasions over the last few decades, where even simple Fe usage would have made things work far better and resulted in better outcomes.

I viewed myself as super logical. I could out argue anyone, even my ENTP brother.

Again, it was your Fe dominating your Ti, if you thought you were different from how you acted (also low Sensing). This is a typical FeNi problem.

Nope. I thought I was into logic and just logic. I know exactly how I was and how it fits into the theories. I was thinking usually like a EFJ in the grip of inf Ti.

I've been studying the Fe-doms, trying to see how they can call logic that thing they utilize. I'm not quite understanding of it yet. Though I'm getting there :)

For example, I have a good friend who's FeNi, she's still trying to find herself though like you were in that phase of your life. I recommended Jung to her, she's finally started reading it and pretty soon she got stuck on this passage:

"Everyone is, admittedly, orientated by the data with which the outer world provides him ; yet we see that this may be the case in a way that is only relatively decisive. Because it is cold out of doors, one man is persuaded to wear his overcoat, another from a desire to become hardened finds this unnecessary; one man admires the new tenor because all the world admires him, another withholds his approbation not because he dislikes him"

She instantly declared that this is biased and is just talking about "independent thinking" (a strong Fe value of hers). I tried to explain to her twice that the examples are just examples but they are not the same as the concept of introversion and extraversion itself, which does not contain any statements about extraverts not being able to think for their own. In the end she said, okay, she'll read on and I said I'm sure it'll all add up for her eventually :)

This, in my opinion, is a very good example of how Fe cannot think what it cannot feel.

And, it's an example of when Fe-dom declares themselves logical. This isn't what I call logical myself because what I call logical is mathematics, not social values. This example about her thinking here is Fe logic, not Ti logic.

I don't relate to your friend at all. People view me as super logical. I viewed myself as super logical. I navigate logical systems with ease.

The joy of long time in the loop is that I gained a pretty well developed Ti. Being in the grip or in a loop has major benefits if you can grow from it.
 

Poki

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There is data and there is meaning. Data is useless without interpretation. A truth is meaningless without context. Understanding how things fit and the why behind it all is important.

Big Data is the rage currently. Massive numbers of data points can be extrapolated in order to show patterns. It isn't my field but I touched the periphery once or twice. The problem I have read about is that the results are only as good as the questions and understanding.

In major league baseball, sabermetrics is the name of the game, Moneyball idea. You mentioned sports and analysis in your first post, so I suspect you are familiar with it. Data analytics have shown distinct patterns that teams can use to get more efficiency from their players and budgets.

I live in the Dallas area and while the Rangers are not my team and I follow baseball extremely casually these days, I have followed how this played out in the last few years.

When the current ownership came in, they brought in a young data hound and Nolan Ryan. At first, they seemed to work together on building team success, getting to the World Series two years in a row.

But eventually Ryan was pushed out, especially after he objected to the roster changes. The team dropped off without Ryan in management and most of the discarded players had career years after leaving. The team had some improvement this year, but it isn't contending for the World Series.

The point is the data was useless without understanding.

I have had the opportunity over the years to see a lot of raw data regarding corporations and their decision making process. Many have become completely data driven, only working on data and case studies. Yet they often miss the forest for the trees. They do data driven decisions without meaning or value or impact or the big picture. I have seen the same crappy decision making over and over again.

The best entrepreneurs often move on gut feelings rather than data and logic.

Fe and Ni at the their best together find meaning and understanding and insight everywhere.

If you still struggle with what meaning is, go listen to Justin Bieber for a bit--he has a song in the topic.

Ultimately, this entire thread is one giant pursuit of meaning...



You can't loop two judging functions.

A ISTP or ESTP can loop into a SeFe loop. A TiNi would be theoretically possible if you bypassed your primary perceiving function.

I could do a FeSe loop, I guess, or even a SeTi loop. I suspect I did at times over the last few decades as I often rejected my intuition and feelings at times. Not good places.

A INTP or ENTP normally do NeFe loops. My INTP son does that. It is scary mixing endless possibilities with a need to find meaning externally. He gets off into some really bizarre paranoia.....


I didn't care about type or personality or psychology, etc, even though they would have helped my work at the time. I wasn't consciously schmoozing. I wasn't trying to be a people person. I thought I sucked at socializing, even as I am damn good at it, connecting to people in seconds and finding ways to touch them without effort.

Yes, people trusted me and connected to me easily, but I didn't see that. I didn't have conscious awareness about how easily I navigated social structures. And since I tried to consciously navigate them with Ti, I really screwed things up for myself on more than a few occasions over the last few decades, where even simple Fe usage would have made things work far better and resulted in better outcomes.

I viewed myself as super logical. I could out argue anyone, even my ENTP brother.



Nope. I thought I was into logic and just logic. I know exactly how I was and how it fits into the theories. I was thinking usually like a EFJ in the grip of inf Ti.



I don't relate to your friend at all. People view me as super logical. I viewed myself as super logical. I navigate logical systems with ease.

The joy of long time in the loop is that I gained a pretty well developed Ti. Being in the grip or in a loop has major benefits if you can grow from it.

Interpretation is useless without data also. It's called assumptions.
 

SearchingforPeace

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Yeah, I bounce between the 2 very frequently as checks against each other.

I tend to stay on the interpretation side of things..... I have a boat load of data and patterns and intricate models in my brain so I run on just enough data to keep the system working, unless a more accurate result is required. Most things in life are fine with 80 to 90% accuracy, but those instances where 100% is needed are extremely important. I wouldn't want to try to launch a rocket with 80% accuracy......

But understanding why certain events are unfolding rarely permits 100% accuracy anyway. We can act with far less and deal with potential fallout if in error rather than wait until we can get 100% accuracy.
 

existence

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Fe and Ni at the their best together find meaning and understanding and insight everywhere.

If you still struggle with what meaning is, go listen to Justin Bieber for a bit--he has a song in the topic.

Ultimately, this entire thread is one giant pursuit of meaning...

Thanks for the description. As to your last sentence, it's your own POV. My POV is, I wanted to understand the theory and types more by exploring more data. I'm satisfied with the conclusions.


You can't loop two judging functions.

I'm talking about when the dominant function dissociates from the inferior function too much. The grip thing. Which is what you were doing.


I didn't care about type or personality or psychology, etc, even though they would have helped my work at the time. I wasn't consciously schmoozing. I wasn't trying to be a people person. I thought I sucked at socializing, even as I am damn good at it, connecting to people in seconds and finding ways to touch them without effort.

Yes, people trusted me and connected to me easily, but I didn't see that. I didn't have conscious awareness about how easily I navigated social structures. And since I tried to consciously navigate them with Ti, I really screwed things up for myself on more than a few occasions over the last few decades, where even simple Fe usage would have made things work far better and resulted in better outcomes.

Yeah, these are the objective facts for your typing.


I viewed myself as super logical. I could out argue anyone, even my ENTP brother.

I've seen this claim from ENFJs before. One of them tried to convince me that that a circle is a square, he explicitly claimed he was going to convince me. Nope. After awhile, he found an excuse and gave up.


Nope. I thought I was into logic and just logic. I know exactly how I was and how it fits into the theories. I was thinking usually like a EFJ in the grip of inf Ti.

You are saying that you were in the grip of inferior Ti. This doesn't go against what I say. In the grip, Fe is still your dominant function, preventing you from seeing and analysing the facts impersonally. Which is exactly what was going on with you not seeing you being social etc was highly relevant to your type.


I don't relate to your friend at all. People view me as super logical. I viewed myself as super logical. I navigate logical systems with ease.

My friend claims the exact same about herself. :p
 

existence

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I'm glad you got something out of it and shared it (in post #298).

Yup, just a pointless whatif. Feel free to disregard if you want.

No passive aggression at all. [Passive aggressive would be to point out in some clever way that you were assuming things about me to come to those conclusions. I'll just be direct here.] But no. It was for the group, not you specifically. I thought it interesting to imagine all of the different possible explanations for this thread. Some others had also thought along those lines as well.

I went back to check something in this thread and I noticed I skipped a line in this post hence my misinterpreting this post of yours originally.

Clearly you are being fully passive aggressive here, full of hints with double meaning, and outright lying to cover it as you claim you are being direct. What that says about you is not my problem though.

And, no, I'm not interested in a reply from you unless you are able to be actually *direct* without double meanings and lying. Otherwise it's not worth my time.
 

existence

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A bit of an update. I reflected some more on the topic and I've gone with ISTJ as my type inside the actual official MBTI framework without modification.

(I still have the same opinion on issues with certain MBTI tenets as I said earlier, but I can work inside this system if needed.)

Thanks to everyone who was able to remain objective in their approach (which was not many people).
 
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